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5 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Maybe once you have got rid of us you'll be fine¬†ūü§£

Rob, 

I think that UK leaving is bad for both UK and EU. But the vote was to leave. So, need to get on with it. End of. 

UK leaving will not fix the EU. But I think it will help focus EU. 

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One big thing that gets lost in the whole China's lost territory's narrative BS is most of the territory expansion wasn't done by the Chinese (i'm referring to Han Chinese to mean China). The CCP is claiming lost territories that were acquired by outsiders who conquered China. The last emperor of China wasn't Chinese, he was Manchu. China claiming all these territories is like Iraq claiming the US as it's territory. 

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17 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

One big thing that gets lost in the whole China's lost territory's narrative BS is most of the territory expansion wasn't done by the Chinese (i'm referring to Han Chinese to mean China). The CCP is claiming lost territories that were acquired by outsiders who conquered China. The last emperor of China wasn't Chinese, he was Manchu. China claiming all these territories is like Iraq claiming the US as it's territory. 

All that does is muddy the waters of what is meant by China - a point made very early in the thread -  given that what is called Manchuria was the stepping stone for Mao's People's Liberation Army and the formation of modern day China.

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(edited)

What does Mao having a stepping stone in Manchuria have to do with China claiming territories that were never possessed by an empire that was actually Chinese? Whats next, China claims all Mongol Empire lands that once existed due to them getting their rear ends kicked by the Kahn? 

China constantly bellows out how the West screwed China starting in the 1700's yet China was conquered many times over the last 1,000 years by outsiders that weren't from Europe/West Eurasia. From what I've read for 600 of the last 1,000 years (that 400 remaining years includes the past 70 ruled by CCP) China was ruled by foreigners, they just weren't European. In fact most of the territory we think of as present day China are lands that outsiders who conquered China then subsequently conquered and incorporated.

If China was being at all truthful with the whole century of humiliation narrative they would go after Mongolia who conquered China or Russia who bit off chunks of territory from lands Mongolia conquered when they conquered China.  Of course that doesn't whip up the masses like the current BS narrative.

Edited by Strangelovesurfing
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12 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

never said that. I just stated that everyone is pre-occupied with Brexit. 

I wish the EU would grow some balls and throw the UK out. 

Damn! I do to.ūüėā

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50 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

What does Mao having a stepping stone in Manchuria have to do with China claiming territories that were never possessed by an empire that was actually Chinese?

So what was China was never really China?

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15 hours ago, remake it said:

Governing Parties in democracies theoretically represent all the people as well, including those who are not members, and including those who are members of other Parties, so it seems a meaningless remark, while the rejoinder is a non sequitur.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1984044/long-arduous-process-joining-chinas-communist-party

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18 hours ago, remake it said:

So what was China was never really China?

My point is what you think of as the current shape of China and the maximum extent of "Chinese" territory was forged not by any Chinese (Han Chinese) empire but by empires who conquered China (we in the US call them Chinese Dynasties but they weren't. The Han Chinese hated the foreign empires/dynasties, Manchu, Mongol etc that ruled China.) then expanded the boarders of their empire where the Han Chinese were but one part of the whole. Now you have China trying to claim imperial territorys of foreign empires that conquered Han China. 

Again, it's like Ukraine claiming all the territory Germany controlled in WW2 because they were conquered by the Nazi's. The extent of lands China is claiming were never part of any Chinese empire. Using that logic, the US might as well claim the entirety of the old British Empire

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7 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

My point is what you think of as the current shape of China and the maximum extent of "Chinese" territory was forged not by any Chinese (Han Chinese) empire but by empires who conquered China (we in the US call them Chinese Dynasties but they weren't. The Han Chinese hated the foreign empires/dynasties, Manchu, Mongol etc that ruled China.) then expanded the boarders of their empire where the Han Chinese were but one part of the whole. Now you have China trying to claim imperial territorys of foreign empires that conquered Han China. 

Again, it's like Ukraine claiming all the territory Germany controlled in WW2 because they were conquered by the Nazi's. The extent of lands China is claiming were never part of any Chinese empire. Using that logic, the US might as well claim the entirety of the old British Empire

So according to you, what everyone has understood to be China is not China, because the Chinese dynasties were not really Chinese but, instead "foreign," (except for the Han some 2000 years ago), implying that the conversion to constitutional China in 1912 was yet another foreign takeover - which is so logically flawed it beggars belief. 

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3 minutes ago, remake it said:

So according to you, what everyone has understood to be China is not China, because the Chinese dynasties were not really Chinese but, instead "foreign," (except for the Han some 2000 years ago), implying that the conversion to constitutional China in 1912 was yet another foreign takeover - which is so logically flawed it beggars belief. 

No, not according to me, according to Historians who have studied these events and actually are informed on what was really happening, not the current CCP driven narrative or popular (current conventional) belief. Read,  The Hundred-Year Marathon (Great IMO), China's Coming War With Asia (Ok IMO), this isn't some secret knowledge or crap I pulled out my rear end. While Napoleon may have said 'History is a set of lies we agree upon' I think it's best if you don't let the DDB masses or the CCP dictate the lies you agree to as history.

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2 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

No, not according to me, according to Historians who have studied these events and actually are informed on what was really happening, not the current CCP driven narrative or popular (current conventional) belief. Read,  The Hundred-Year Marathon (Great IMO), China's Coming War With Asia (Ok IMO), this isn't some secret knowledge or crap I pulled out my rear end. While Napoleon may have said 'History is a set of lies we agree upon' I think it's best if you don't let the DDB masses or the CCP dictate the lies you agree to as history.

This is about how you apply concepts and logic to historical events, so pivotal is what is deemed to be "China" in terms of areal extent and people (ethnicities), and it is not clear how you have been consistent with your ideas.

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No, this is not off topic.  For anyone who wants to poke Jello.

20191112_172032.thumb.jpg.473346817bff46c51d85f72abcd6d56d.jpg

 

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(edited)

On 11/11/2019 at 8:35 PM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

UK leaving will not fix the EU. But I think it will help focus EU. 

To do what? Build an army? #EUbad

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL joke

Edited by DayTrader

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47 minutes ago, remake it said:

This is about how you apply concepts and logic to historical events, so pivotal is what is deemed to be "China" in terms of areal extent and people (ethnicities), and it is not clear how you have been consistent with your ideas.

What is inconstant about my point?

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7 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

What is inconstant about my point?

Is Manchuria part of China, and if it is, which foreign power took it over?

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40 minutes ago, remake it said:

Is Manchuria part of China, and if it is, which foreign power took it over?

The people of Manchuria are Manchu not Chinese that is my point. The Manchu's conquered China not the other way around, the last emperor of China wasn't Chinese. Just like the Mongols the Manchu's have, in American thought, been all blended together and slapped with a bumper sticker called China. China (Han China, the CCP, the current imperial masters) just stepped into the shoes of what other empires had created.

Why this is important is China's current use of false history to play the victim card relies on Americans having no clue about the actual history of East Asia and using our sentimentality weakness against us.

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2 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Using that logic, the US might as well claim the entirety of the old British Empire

And now you know why the USA is sitting on Diego Garcia!

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33 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

The people of Manchuria are Manchu not Chinese that is my point. The Manchu's conquered China not the other way around, the last emperor of China wasn't Chinese.

So Manchuria is not part of China?

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2 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Yes it is currently.

Manchuria's population is mostly Han, but it also has some 50 ethnicities, and these aspects of what constitute what we today call China keep getting buried beneath the ethnicity of the prevailing dynasties which you refer to as "foreigners."

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7 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Yes it is currently.

You are dealing with an AI bot and its handler with Remake It

There is no point debating anything with it as you will find out if you carry on the dialogue

Your comments on the subject for the record are IMO knowledgeable and well informed

Just a friendly bit of advice

Cheers

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10 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Yes it is currently.

 

2 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

You are dealing with an AI bot and its handler with Remake It

There is no point debating anything with it as you will find out if you carry on the dialogue ...

Just a friendly bit of advice

Cheers

^ ^ ^  this

But it can also be amusing to poke Jello and watch it bounce around and wiggle randomly.  Yes, I am easily amused.

tenor.gif.ae6900dd50b6e6dd30e7e400e6494254.gif

 

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Already know the responses to this. Have fun Rob.

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