POTUS Trump signs the HK Bill

[TZUT 0]

US increasingly treats China as an enemy.  Not sure how this policy will help US economy. 

[Rob Plant + 2,605]

3 hours ago, remake it said:

Except that it's you without evidence.

Where is yours? That’s right you have none!

ask any American on this site if they are paying more for their goods!

why do you think China devalued its currency?

fried circuits!

[remake it + 288]

32 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Where is yours? That’s right you have none!

ask any American on this site if they are paying more for their goods!

why do you think China devalued its currency?

fried circuits!

There were 6 links in the post you replied to confirming that tariffs are not a magic pudding; importers have the choice of absorbing some or all of the rate hikes or passing some or all of them on to consumers, but they cannot make them disappear.

[Papillon + 485]

With all due respect sir, the user remake it has provided not one but six links concerning the trade disputes. However I still maintain that the recent developments concerning HK have little impact on said disputes, time will tell us perhaps, but I still hold the position that this is mere political bluster and rather overblown in all honesty.

Also I cannot fully go along with the initial posting that this news will make the United States and China more adversarial. In all candour the two nations were far from ideological twins before these trade dispute events took hold. 

Finally sir, would you care to explain the term 'fried circuits'? I am at a loss in achievement of a connection to the discussion. I thank you in advance. 

I see remake it rather beat me to it as it were in response.

9 minutes ago, remake it said:

but they cannot make them disappear.

Very true sir. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Papillon
The addition of final sentences and quoting fellow user.

[Rob Plant + 2,605]

Yes I can Papillon

if you read all other threads on this site you will see that Remake It cannot and will not accept any criticism of China in any way. Whether that be censorship, human rights, animal rights, China’s “rights” to claim  sovereign countries as their own territory ie Nepal, Taiwan etc etc.

Hence why many in this site actually think Remake It is in fact an AI robot with a Chinese handler, therefore “fried circuits” comment.

i have asked Remake It what “he” does for a living or anything personal about himself which he hasn’t replied to 

i am English and can agree to criticism of my country’s colonial past where it is valid or the political mess we are currently in, so I consider myself open to learn from others and to be fair minded.

you will not get that from Remake It.

you seem to agree with most comments he or it comes out with so we will probably not agree on upcoming threads much, which is fine. As I say everyone is entitled to an opinion but to have such a one sided bias as Remake It has is frankly pathetic and adds nothing to this forum.

[Papillon + 485]

I see sir, thankyou for the explanation. All I guess I could add to this would be to peruse my recent post within the 'paper cuts' conversation with regard to national pride. I agree with any point I believe is valid sir, it will have little to do, if anything, with who wrote it. I have no idea where this person is from and have not frequented this website long enough to know, dare I say even care, where users are from, but from what you suggest he or she is Chinese? 

However I would add sir that from what I have read, and bare in mind please I am not attacking anyone here or their nationality, and have not been here long, but your comment about an unwillingness to accept criticism could be applied also to all nationalities? Everyone has a pride in their home sir, and I heartily agree that not seeing the opposing view and being one sided as you say is not helpful. In defense of this person though maybe he or she feels the same about American society perhaps and that Americans here are one sided and happy to attack but not listen to the retort? I would also note that this idea of a perfect society is to me non-sensical. That which to you or I is perfect may be a version of hell to a citizen that lives on the same street, would you agree? 

Again, thankyou for your explanation. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Papillon

[remake it + 288]

35 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

if you read all other threads on this site you will see that Remake It cannot and will not accept any criticism of China in any way. Whether that be censorship, human rights, animal rights, China’s “rights” to claim  sovereign countries as their own territory ie Nepal, Taiwan etc etc.

You mistake your poor logic and argument with an entirely separate issue of "what is China" as there is no evidence to support your above points except in your own mind, and the result is a continuing theme of attacking posters rather than what is at issue.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 hours ago, remake it said:

You mistake your poor logic and argument with an entirely separate issue of "what is China" as there is no evidence to support your above points except in your own mind, and the result is a continuing theme of attacking posters rather than what is at issue.

Ni schwo Guoyi mah?

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 11/30/2019 at 3:22 PM, Rob Plant said:

Where is yours? That’s right you have none!

ask any American on this site if they are paying more for their goods!

why do you think China devalued its currency?

 

The holiday spending numbers should be enlightening; that's when the real effects (or not) should show up.  Does everyone have as much money for presents as last year? Are all the presents under the tree made overseas?  Purchased at Walmart?

PS the international monetary fund says China is not manipulating its currency.  Trump can say whatever he wants over and over but that doesn't make it more true. Trump also wants to devalue the USD as much as possible (great unless you have a bunch of cash equivalent savings).

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:48 PM, frankfurter said:

This is bad news. The USA has now made China a complete adversary, in law and policy. The repercussions of this will be profound and continue long into the future.

No, that is not true. What happened is that we finally have a President wise enough to deal with how badly we were being treated by the Chinese government. To be clear, we want the best for the Chinese people and those of every nation. 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:04 PM, Rob Plant said:

I have travelled many times to China.

the people I find there to be very welcoming and genuinely interested in my culture and way of life as I am in theirs.

i don’t think they are persecuted per se however there is definitely a one sided narrative from the state which the average person is scared to speak out against for fear of reprisals.

i think it is demonstrated quite well in how internet access is controlled and in some cases censored by the state to continue the “belief” in the system and state and yes to dumb down what is believed.

the recent increase in controlling the masses by the state regarding facial recognition etc etc is yet another example. This may well become the norm in many countries, time will tell.

i am not anti China and the Chinese people but anti their regime.

As you seem unaware, Facebook and Twitter do, in fact, censor information, and do, in fact, collude with the USA govt.  Also, USA Immigration used face recognition tech long before the Chinese.  So which regime are you against, in reality?  

[frankfurter + 562]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:04 AM, ronwagn said:

No, that is not true. What happened is that we finally have a President wise enough to deal with how badly we were being treated by the Chinese government. To be clear, we want the best for the Chinese people and those of every nation. 

This is pure bigotry.  Exactly how were you treated badly by the China government?   Walmart owes its "success" to Chinese goods.  In fact, many companies in Silicon Valley are economically dependent upon China.  Where do you suppose GM got its profits to pay back the bail out loans?  GM's largest, most profitable market is China. How and why did Apply accrue a $billion offshore, free of tax to USA? - hint, not from Americans.  You seem entirely unaware the USA bombed a Chinese embassy, arrested a Chinese citizen upon no crime, and more.  Yet you claim China has treated you badly.  

[Rob Plant + 2,605]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

As you seem unaware, Facebook and Twitter do, in fact, censor information, and do, in fact, collude with the USA govt.  Also, USA Immigration used face recognition tech long before the Chinese.  So which regime are you against, in reality?  

No I am aware of certain censorship by independent companies, this i believe is largely to protect the general public from criminal activities. However this isn't  government sponsored censorship across a nation, please do not tell me that you honestly believe there is less censorship in China than the US or the West as I wont be able to take you seriously in future.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jun/29/the-great-firewall-of-china-xi-jinpings-internet-shutdown

https://www.scmp.com/culture/books/article/2144692/how-china-censors-its-internet-and-controls-information-great-firewall

I could post dozens of links on this to be honest.

I have stated however on previous threads (I think it was Day Traders post on Orwell) that China is not alone in facial recognition and its control on the populous and I believe this is prevalent in the West also although little is mentioned in our media.

The technology was first introduced in the mid 1960's, however it is now widely used in modern society ie passport control, law enforcement etc.

These are just some of the ways China monitors its populous

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2157883/drones-facial-recognition-and-social-credit-system-10-ways-china

However I agree that many of these are used in the West also.

I hope we now understand each other.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

This is pure bigotry.  Exactly how were you treated badly by the China government?   Walmart owes its "success" to Chinese goods.  In fact, many companies in Silicon Valley are economically dependent upon China.  Where do you suppose GM got its profits to pay back the bail out loans?  GM's largest, most profitable market is China. How and why did Apply accrue a $billion offshore, free of tax to USA? - hint, not from Americans.  You seem entirely unaware the USA bombed a Chinese embassy, arrested a Chinese citizen upon no crime, and more.  Yet you claim China has treated you badly.  

Walmart once prided itself in selling American goods, and now sells mainly Chinese merchandise. Americans have benefitted from inexpensive Chinese goods. We now have more shoes than we could possibly ever wear out. That is all well and good. China has benefited from our imports equally. We chose to trade with Communist China over fifty years ago. We hope to continue with equal terms. If China does not want equal terms then we will make adjustments in our trade policies with them. It is as simple as that. China cannot expect to act in a threatening manner and maintain the benefits of good friends. Neither can America. We both need to negotiate for FAIR TRADE. 

[frankfurter + 562]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Walmart once prided itself in selling American goods, and now sells mainly Chinese merchandise. Americans have benefitted from inexpensive Chinese goods. We now have more shoes than we could possibly ever wear out. That is all well and good. China has benefited from our imports equally. We chose to trade with Communist China over fifty years ago. We hope to continue with equal terms. If China does not want equal terms then we will make adjustments in our trade policies with them. It is as simple as that. China cannot expect to act in a threatening manner and maintain the benefits of good friends. Neither can America. We both need to negotiate for FAIR TRADE. 

Agree. Lets be fair.  The USA sent it military into Iraq, destroyed the country, and has stolen its oil since AD2000.  ditto for Libya.  ditto for Syria.  None of the oil profits go into the local countries.  In Afghanistan, the CIA steals billions on Opium. Fair?  Going all the way back to Chief Geronimo, the 'economic model' of the USA has been, and continues to be, pillage and plunder.  The ONLY reason USA companies go abroad ['out source'] is arbitrage; ie to pay dirt wages and mine resources for next to no cost.  If you bleepoing yanks were to pay prices for REAL wages and costs, you would be a third world country, and other countries would be vastly more wealthy.  You seem entirely unaware USA companies, like Apple, GM, Ford, etc, paid ZERO tax to China on profits earned in China.  You call this fair?  

uh, exactly how does China threaten the USA? 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Agree. Lets be fair.  The USA sent it military into Iraq, destroyed the country, and has stolen its oil since AD2000.  ditto for Libya.  ditto for Syria.  None of the oil profits go into the local countries.  In Afghanistan, the CIA steals billions on Opium. Fair?  Going all the way back to Chief Geronimo, the 'economic model' of the USA has been, and continues to be, pillage and plunder.  The ONLY reason USA companies go abroad ['out source'] is arbitrage; ie to pay dirt wages and mine resources for next to no cost.  If you bleepoing yanks were to pay prices for REAL wages and costs, you would be a third world country, and other countries would be vastly more wealthy.  You seem entirely unaware USA companies, like Apple, GM, Ford, etc, paid ZERO tax to China on profits earned in China.  You call this fair?  

uh, exactly how does China threaten the USA? 

 

Frankfurter, you have no appreciation for America at all, or so it seems. Where are you from? You make a lot of unfounded statements for sure. America has done a lot of good in the world and treated people far more fairly than any other nation I know of. I would certainly say that in comparison to what communist China has done, we are angels. 

See China stories https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wb2YoQGpSWTz32ljsiA_ey6FLVqc2Dpe7Fnpiqn9lBs/edit

[Rob Plant + 2,605]

Wow not much national bias going on here. 
IMO you can trawl through any country’s history and dig up barbaric acts against their own people and more especially against other nations. This is just mud slinging.
let’s get back to the here and now as nobody can change history. If nations are abusing human rights etc then by all means “out” those countries and endeavour to do something about it and debate it in this platform.

We need to accept our own country’s past failings and move forward with an open mind in order to have a reasoned debate.

[canadas canadas + 136]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:48 PM, frankfurter said:

This is bad news. The USA has now made China a complete adversary, in law and policy. The repercussions of this will be profound and continue long into the future.

The Chinese government is also China's biggest business corporation that controls everything economic, social, political, military, etc. through owning many different other offshoot companies. Even though it claims to be a socialist/communist government, it does whatever it wants and is in its own interest first and not in the interest of the majority of its people that it originally claims to represent.  It is the super-corporation that some corporatists dream of.

[Papillon + 485]

9 hours ago, frankfurter said:

The USA sent it military into Iraq, destroyed the country, and has stolen its oil since AD2000.  ditto for Libya.  ditto for Syria.  None of the oil profits go into the local countries.  In Afghanistan, the CIA steals billions on Opium. Fair?  Going all the way back to Chief Geronimo, the 'economic model' of the USA has been, and continues to be, pillage and plunder. 

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Frankfurter, you have no appreciation for America at all, or so it seems. Where are you from? You make a lot of unfounded statements for sure. America has done a lot of good in the world and treated people far more fairly than any other nation I know of. I would certainly say that in comparison to what communist China has done, we are angels. 

5 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Wow not much national bias going on here. 
IMO you can trawl through any country’s history and dig up barbaric acts against their own people and more especially against other nations. This is just mud slinging. Let’s get back to the here and now as nobody can change history. If nations are abusing human rights etc then by all means “out” those countries and endeavour to do something about it and debate it in this platform.

We need to accept our own country’s past failings and move forward with an open mind in order to have a reasoned debate.

Agreed sir though in all fairness it seems here that even 'modern day failings' are ignored. This is precisely why I began the americavchina thread, for conversations such as this. With all due respect gentlemen, Frankfurter's claims are all concerning the last twenty years and so, in effect, the modern day. Presuming that Frankfurter is from China, I can only echo my thoughts on the americavchina thread that neither society is flawless by any means, whether historically or in the present day. However, as the issues he raises are all within the modern day, and assuming they are all correct, it is very odd that the reply suggests the USA has 'treated people more fairly than any other nation', or that Frankfurter should 'show appreciation' for the USA, or that he 'makes a lot of unfounded statements', and as it instantly suggests 'in comparison to China' then this discussion should perhaps move to the other thread. None of this has anything to do with Mr Trump or Hong Kong with respect.

To clarify I have qualms with both nations but also a great respect, and am not taking a side as it were, but I feel in the interest of fairness almost that as the majority of the forum is very obviously, understandably on an oil site, American, the opposing views are either not heard or instantly disbelieved or attacked. Also, as was evident with Mr van Eck's discussion with Remake It, the discussions have a tendency to go from one era to the next and I don't feel this is helpful. By all means compare and discuss, but to go from the modern day and for example the USA in the Middle East to events within ancient China has little bearing. Mr Plant has summed this up in the section I have made into bold text about 'past failings' but with respect to the 'here and now' that is precisely what Frankfurter is addressing in fairness.

With respect to you all, this is something I have noticed many times here and I believe I made reference to it at the opening of the other thread. Americans here seem very eager to attack others but when the tables are turned to their own history and even current problems, the replies verge along the lines of the instant comparisons, as if two wrongs make a right and you can say whatever you wish as long as you believe your nation is 'not as bad' or 'not as wrong'? This is very odd to me. Every discussion, if you notice, is an attack of the other nation, and a form of comparison. I'm not sure I have read one comment from a Chinese or American citizen here that really criticised or acknowledged their own domestic issues. Instead they seem to be justified or ignored as users are too busy criticising the other nation. Respectfully, Papillon.

**addition - in fairness, just today in fact, Mr van Eck discussed America's immigration policies and his distaste for them, so I stand somewhat corrected. However I could still say no 'American' has done so I believe. A certain political stance within America and continually criticising purely due to being Democrat does not count. This is what I have attempted to reference before gentlemen concerning this national pride that seems to blinker users from their own domestic problems. Again, I referenced this is the opening post of the americavchina thread. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Papillon

[ronwagn + 6,290]

I will just continue to show the facts that I see. Historical background is also very important in predicting the future. There is a saying in psychology " Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior". 

Here is a new story about China https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/12/11/china-dethrones-turkey-as-worlds-worst-jailer-of-journalists/

China Dethrones Turkey as World’s Worst Jailer of Journalists

13 Edited December 11, 2019 by ronwagn

[Papillon + 485]

33 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I will just continue to show the facts that I see.

Fair enough sir. I guess it all depends on what you consider facts though in fairness. I'm confident if the Chinese were to produce article after article about the USA you would not believe them? This is all I'm trying to address sir, plus, (and I am jesting with you here, forgive me), the above is also nothing to do with Mr Trump or the Hong Kong bill. 

33 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Historical background is also very important in predicting the future. There is a saying in psychology " Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior". 

So at what point sir would you say you will be bringing slavery back? That was not that long ago was it? This was your 'past behaviour' was it not? I am not criticising you sir, please do not read this wrong, I am simply trying to get across, on various threads now it seems, that these comparisons that span eras are rather pointless. You cannot say to me, and I'm paraphrasing here, ''I will judge China based on previous behaviour'' and not expect the same rationale to be turned to yourself?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Papillon

[Papillon + 485]

Also sir, with respect, the nations of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam and others have all just been mentioned (and ignored), so with regard to ''judging nations based on their past behaviour'' (as people here are very happy to do when it comes to other nations), what exactly does that suggest for future actions of the USA? I am not criticising sir, but I cannot help but feel that some Americans here do not seem to own a metaphorical mirror and are unable to look at their own domestic issues or history, but are more than happy to compare to others and criticise. It is a little odd to me. 

If we go back and base predictions or judge on past behaviour does that mean you will bring slavery back, that you will shoot your president at the theatre, that you will shoot another president in Texas, that you will have another civil war, that you will invent weapons of destruction, that you will risk lives to get to the Moon again in a race, that your press and opposition will do all they can to remove your president ...? I have a thousand more if you like sir, these are America's 'past behaviours'. Do you see my point? History is important, of course, but to judge based on it is not entirely fair, and if it is, why can America's past never be questioned here?

Edited December 11, 2019 by Papillon

[ronwagn + 6,290]

38 minutes ago, Papillon said:

Fair enough sir. I guess it all depends on what you consider facts though in fairness. I'm confident if the Chinese were to produce article after article about the USA you would not believe them? This is all I'm trying to address sir, plus, (and I am jesting with you here, forgive me), the above is also nothing to do with Mr Trump or the Hong Kong bill. 

So at what point sir would you say you will be bringing slavery back? That was not that long ago was it? This was your 'past behaviour' was it not? I am not criticising you sir, please do not read this wrong, I am simply trying to get across, on various threads now it seems, that these comparisons that span eras are rather pointless. You cannot say to me, and I'm paraphrasing here, ''I will judge China based on previous behaviour'' and not expect the same rationale tIo be turned to yourself?

Most of my numbered posts are very current. just use your cursor to get past the images. 

[Papillon + 485]

Ok, nevermind sir. With respect you seem to be willingly choosing to ignore certain aspects of my post, and seem to wish to simply post links about China and indeed as I was writing this you posted a link about China on another thread. You started by saying looking back in history is a good indicator of the future, then when I pointed out some of your nation's own history you seemed to change it to 'most of my posts are current'.

No offence sir but this rather proves my point that some users here are utterly incapable of looking at their own nation's actions, they simply wish to compare other countries, sometimes modern day, sometimes historically, depending on how they feel it seems, or which way their argument seems to be going. I would argue that the countries I named, apart from Vietnam, were all in the last twenty years, and so modern history, but you seem to wish to ignore any self reflection and criticise China instead. The discussion turns historic, I bring up slavery, you ignore it. The discussion turns to modern day, I bring up Iraq and your political circus, you ignore it. 

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Historical background is also very important in predicting the future.

Evidently this only applies, of course, with relation to China. When I listed many of your nation's awful historical actions, you ignored them. Respectfully, this is utterly pointless. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Our historical actions are not perfect, but far better than those of communist China which has an Emperor for life and a total dictatorship. It has no freedom of the press, enslaves political opponents, and claims vast parts of the South Seas which it has no rights to. Nothing like that in America. We have socialists that want to make America like China, but we are fighting them off the best we can.