americavchina.com

[Papillon + 485]

29 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

whose sense of self importance is vastly greater than the reality. 

I genuinely don't know where to begin with this sentence and its irony sir. I will refrain from bothering at all I think   

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, Papillon said:

Precisely sir. Perfectly put. I may as well have just stated this on all threads and saved myself some time. The USA is utterly flawless and always has been, I just did not get that particular memo.

I do not know if this is true sir, but if it were, I imagine it will literally receive a red arrow or the eyeroll picture. This appears to be the American reaction here when they don't like what they have read and have no argument for it at all. 

I am not referring to cases such as these camps sir, but the notion that you were all happy to agree with initially, that ''a nation's issues are up to us to solve and up to us alone''. This not surprisingly only applies to the USA it seems, like many statements here, but the actions and events in other countries can be attacked constantly, and at the same time you say Americans have no interest in them. The constant opinion and attack of an opposing view would suggest otherwise would it not sir? 

Your daily life is affected a lot by the Chinese is it? Their 'bullshit' has a large impact on you in Vermont apparently? With respect sir it is rather tiresome here on occasion as I fear there is potentially little point in anyone other than an American citizen frequenting the site, as they will either be accused of surely being a bot for attacking the apparently flawless USA, and because it appears no American citizen here can judge their own nation fairly, potentially as they are too busy criticising China or patting themselves on the back. Even a vaguely opposing view is attacked and you rudely suggest ''are you nuts?'' for even daring to disagree about the Chinese's military power.

I find it rather odd that people continuously bring up human rights issues in China (the majority of which I would agree with you all by the way), but completely ignore other countries' abuses. At the same time, you suggest Americans do not care about China and seem to be gleefully wishing for it to fall into despairing poverty. This seems somewhat hypocritical for users who allege to care about human rights does it not? The people you all seem to take issue with will quite possibly not be affected in the slightest, merely the average citizens. Therefore it would seem you do not care about over a billion people living in horrific conditions, as you take issue with the rulers of the country? 

I would also invite you all to ponder what your reactions would have been if a journalist was sawn to pieces within China? I will go out on a limb and suggest you would still be talking about it, that there would probably be around ten threads about it perhaps? It is rather tiresome to read of users' apparent care of human rights, but it depends on which nations we are talking about, and quite possibly how much military equipment they purchase. This story was rather swept under the rug was it not? If it were in China you would still be discussing your alleged human rights concerns.

It is literally tiring to read this selective history, the selective care of human beings, the continuous picking and choosing of which nations are bad, so with respect I was not born yesterday. Far from it. If certain users here could take a look at their own nation and actions, rather than the constant back patting it would be rather better for everybody I feel, but with respect save the rather grand 'holier than thou' concept for someone else.

By the way it is at this point you put the red arrow, as opposing views are not welcome in the slightest here. I guess maybe I should be grateful I have not received the bot accusation, but feel it maybe won't be long. It is easier to label someone as a Chinese bot clearly, then to consider the possibility that some people take issue with some American actions. As ever, the back patting gets in the way maybe.

Finally for those of you who feel that you do not see China as a threat or think about it at all, I would invite you to ponder how many comments you have made on a thread entitled americavchina.com.

Respectfully to you all, Papillon. 

Whataboutism

[Papillon + 485]

Of course it is sir. I have valid points, you have no argument, so just 'whataboutism'. I am not surprised. It is easier to say that then anything else clearly. 

When you bring up camps in China, it's not whataboutism. When you constantly compare and refer to China, it's not whataboutism. When you ignore Saudi Arabia and their human rights, but instead focus on China, it's not whataboutism. When you criticise the EU and Europe, it's not whataboutism.

Anything that may require you to look at your own nation? That is whataboutism. In fact I would argue as users here are incapable of seeing their own history or domestic problems, then their whole argument is whataboutism as it makes them feel superior in some sense. More of the infamous picking and choosing here. Laughable.

Whataboutism seems to be your rather standard response with respect sir and somewhat ironic on a thread entitled americavchina is it not? It would be more truthful atleast, as I hinted, to reply ''I didn't like reading that and have no reply''. It seems fine to attack every other nation sir and now indeed entire continents. When it seems to be turned round to ''whataboutUSAism'' you don't like it and reply with one word, which ironically is fine for you for the entire forum to do so, unless about your home country.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Papillon

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

29 minutes ago, Papillon said:

I genuinely don't know where to begin with this sentence and its irony sir. I will refrain from bothering at all I think   

America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold 

[Papillon + 485]

9 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

America sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold 

A nice analogy maybe in the financial markets sir, though may I be so bold as to suggest ''America sneezes, the rest of the world watches the circus come to town'' ?   

With respect, Papillon. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

26 minutes ago, Papillon said:

Of course it is sir. I have valid points, you have no argument, so just 'whataboutism'. I am not surprised. It is easier to say that then anything else clearly. 

When you bring up camps in China, it's not whataboutism.

When you constantly compare and refer to China, it's not whataboutism.

When you ignore Saudi Arabia and their human rights, but instead focus on China, it's not whataboutism.

When you criticise the EU and Europe, it's not whataboutism.

Anything that may require you to look at your own nation? That is whataboutism. In fact I would argue as users here are incapable of seeing their own history or domestic problems, then their whole argument is whataboutism as it makes them feel superior in some sense. More of the infamous picking and choosing here. Laughable.

Whataboutism seems to be your rather standard response with respect sir and somewhat ironic on a thread entitled americavchina is it not? It would be more truthful atleast as I hinted to reply ''I didn't like reading that and have no reply''.

I'm all for comparing apples to apples. I didn't create this thread, do you know who did, sir? 

America has many sins on her conscience, but at least there is a conscience. Does America have an invasion and subjugation of a neighbor comparable to China vs Tibet? I don't think so, but I'm sure you'll bring up the Iroquois or some such from ancient history, when it was the British running things. 

Whataboutism is the deflection of immediately pointing out something about the "other" rather than acknowledging the truth in the a priori statement. Even if I, for the sake of argument grant all your "evils" against America, does their (often ancient) existence excuse misbehavior in the present? 

I have in-laws who were in the Japanese internment camps. Their attitude was surprising. One in particular wrote a book about it, self published and not widely read. He said it was better to have been in the camps than deal with his neighbors, who looked with hate on him for something his prior countrymen had done. It WAS a nasty, sneak attack and caused many Americans to suspect that any Japanese would be capable of the same. Remember, at this point in our history, Democrats were busy lynching blacks and disenfranchised their votes with Jim Crow laws. That they now blame this on Republicans shows how stupid they believe their audience is. They're not wrong. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

12 hours ago, Marcin said:

Interesting subject and actually I do not know. But I think it would be sth more like pragmatic but strict Singapore than insanely effective but not pragmatic isolation a’la Japan. I would speculate this way.

Omnis viae Romam ducunt 

All roads lead to Rome

Rome is the model for the China Belt and Road initiative. Rome was both a military and economic power. Gibbons et al love to focus on the military side, but it was their economy that drove Pax Romanus; backed by the military, but only when you got out of line too far. For all the complaining about taxes and subjugation, almost invariably things were better overall for average citizens under Rome than whatever warlord or primogeniture ruler from an aristocracy happened to control one's life. Rome's taxes were a paltry 3-6%, far lower than what we complain about today. But they got that on everything. They were like the mob, getting a piece of all the action, all the time, for "protection".

When the barbarians invaded Rome how did they get there? Why they just followed the yellow brick roads, because all roads led to Rome.  

 

[Papillon + 485]

11 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

I'm all for comparing apples to apples. I didn't create this thread, do you know who did, sir? 

America has many sins on her conscience, but at least there is a conscience.

With respect sir I did indeed create the thread due to my sarcastic tendencies and have pointed out again and again my respect for both these nations. I thank you for atleast acknowledging you do have sins in your past and this is all I have tried to get across, as people here I'm afraid to say seem more than happy to criticise without looking inwards first. I jest, but I had become to rather fear the American ego knew no boundaries. 

I do not wish to argue sir and brought up these points merely to highlight as it were some recent news, and with all respect what I view as a rather hypocritical stance from the USA, for example the Khashoggi murder and people here discussing human rights. I very much appreciate your reply and story at its conclusion. All I am trying to highlight is that neither nation is flawless, whether today or historically, no nation is, but the whataboutism comments somewhat baffle me, as I say, because it seems constant 'whataboutChinadoingthis' stories are fine here but when the tables are turned it is not okay, or the references are ignored or receive the famous eyeroll. I would rather discuss or receive a reply than see a face or arrow as if it is some kind of argument. 

19 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Whataboutism is the deflection of immediately pointing out something about the "other"

With respect sir I would say this is precisely what the majority of the forum does, and the ''other'' is China itself. Again thankyou for your reply. I will leave you be for now as the circus is coming to town politically and I hear they put on quite the show ...   

With respect, Papillon. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 hours ago, Papillon said:

The USA is utterly flawless and always has been, I just did not get that particular memo.

And that is what happens when you become a Certified Old Guy.  You forget that you got that memo, and you forget what was written in that memo.  Oh, well. 

[remake it + 288]

15 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

America has many sins on her conscience, but at least there is a conscience. Does America have an invasion and subjugation of a neighbor comparable to China vs Tibet? 

How exactly does that "conscience" manifest as it seems a delusion unique to its populace and for example why did the President of the USA (or the rest of the world for that matter) do precisely nothing when implored by the Dalai Lama upon being invaded by China in 1950?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 minutes ago, remake it said:

How exactly does that "conscience" manifest as it seems a delusion unique to its populace and for example why did the President of the USA (or the rest of the world for that matter) do precisely nothing when implored by the Dalai Lama upon being invaded by China in 1950?

Look out, people the Robot is back. 

[Papillon + 485]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

And that is what happens when you become a Certified Old Guy.  You forget that you got that memo, and you forget what was written in that memo.  Oh, well. 

Exactly sir, very true. Next I will forget what the word 'memo' even means I presume so I am grateful my memory is retaining that for now atleast. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

14 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

None, except possibly Israel, but then only if you are Jewish, and then only if you have some connection such as having married the daughter of a rich and influential Israeli.     If you have not accomplished that, then move to the USA,  As did Elon Musk, from South Africa. 

He came to Canada first

[Rob Plant + 2,601]

27 minutes ago, remake it said:

How exactly does that "conscience" manifest as it seems a delusion unique to its populace and for example why did the President of the USA (or the rest of the world for that matter) do precisely nothing when implored by the Dalai Lama upon being invaded by China in 1950?

IMO there is a conscience and then there is a political conscience when it suits, and this applies as far as I can see to all countries. As long as political agendas are being satisfied first and foremost a perceived conscience can then be shown to the world as an added bonus.

no point as Papillon says in raking up specific historical events as we can all do that about any nation

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

23 minutes ago, remake it said:

How exactly does that "conscience" manifest as it seems a delusion unique to its populace and for example why did the President of the USA (or the rest of the world for that matter) do precisely nothing when implored by the Dalai Lama upon being invaded by China in 1950?

Why should America run to the aid of every oppressed people on the planet? Trump isn't wrong to tell other countries that they should carry some of the burden. We've been wasting blood and treasure for over a century trying to clean up others' messes. What will be very interesting will be what happens to the rest of the planet if the US decides to go back to being isolationist. That's what @Marcin should be really concerned about.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

He came to Canada first

Odds that Elon Musk becomes "Elon Musk" in Canada? Approximately 0.0001%

Canada is not kind to entrepreneurs, hence Encana changing its name and getting the hell out of Dodge. 

[remake it + 288]

1 minute ago, Ward Smith said:

Why should America run to the aid of every oppressed people on the planet?

You raised the issue of America's conscience and it appears not just delusional but nowadays a mandatory omission by Presidential decree while at every opportunity this person makes clear that his military might can crush any dissenters.

[remake it + 288]

6 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is nothing to "band together" about.  The USA is disengaging with China.  Period.  The USA does not care, nor is it interested in, what others including the EU States do.The US is disengaging because Trump has figured out that the US is getting a lousy deal in its economic transactions, and the USA is disenchanted with the stealing that the Chinese engage in as respects US intellectual property.  So the US is saying, OK, we call it a day, we pack up and leave you to it.   

Isolationism is an interesting strategy that does not end well in  today's globalization but your intellectual dilemma is in failing to appreciate that the USA is for all practical purposes inconsequential to China's predominance in most fields within the next few decades - a tide you are neither measuring or apparently able to see rolling over your head.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, Papillon said:

So with respect sir why do so many here seem to not be able to extend China the same courtesy and continually insult Chinese practices? I am not saying I agree with all of them by any means, but why does ''our affairs are up to us to solve and us alone'' only seem to apply to your nation, but the insults can generally fly to and from others, as if they live in some wonderland. Apologies sir, I guess this is not entirely directed at yourself, and I have not had the pleasure of conversing with you beforehand. It was merely the latest example I have seen.

Thank you for the honest comment.  I can respect another person's perspective.  The thing about the insults, I'll presume on their behalf, is that Americans have, whether some of them wish to admit it or not, woken up to what trade imbalances mean to the U.S.  They have learned that intellectual property theft is not just about CDs and music but also includes our cutting edge "nobody else is even close to" technology.  Technology that keeps our high tech companies dominant, our innovation dominant and our military one step ahead of those who would do the world harm.  Yes, I said the world, not just the U.S.  They have woken up to the fact that prior U.S. government strategies and trade deals with our partners and emerging markets have gotten out of control and that our government has lost the interest of the citizens of the U.S. in the process.

As I'm sure you are aware, since WWII a very large part of U.S. international trade and defense strategy involved allowing access to the massive U.S. markets, both goods and financial markets.  That promoted international wealth creation and hence less looking around for who I can beat in a war and steal it from.  Combine that with projected U.S. military strength, which ensures trade routes can be plied without fear of loss or fear of most invasions, paid for by the U.S. taxpayers, as Jan pointed out, and the world is in the best place financially and is enjoying the longest peacetime in history.  Markets to absorb everybody's products and security to go about that wealth building without constant fear of invasion. 

Now, again whether some folks in my home country want to admit it or not, Donald J. Trump is solely responsible for bringing these imbalances and abuses to light of day.  When confronting the worst abuser, China (as Donald himself said "it's not their fault; we made the deals with the Chinese; bad deals."), he found that many if not most other countries in the world wanted to side with China and keep both gravy trains running on time.  So he, in my opinion, rightfully punished those that would continue to favor unbalanced trade and intellectual property theft by withdrawing from treaties that were no longer in our interest and were in fact causing harm to our citizens.  He punished them by levying justifiable trade tariffs which in fact simply put us on a more level playing field with our allies, who long had imposed tax and tariff penalties for buying U.S. products, and pulling out of outdated treaties or treaties that had no chance of working as intended in the first place (think Russia/U.S. nuclear weapons treaties, Iran nuclear deals, NAFTA [which, incredibly, the Democrats are now trying to take credit for] and a well abused WTO court).  Organizations such as the WTO, the U.N., NATO and others were formed, and largely funded by, the United States with U.S. leadership, and which have been turned against us for a very long time, to our detriment, to the detriment of U.S. workers and companies.

Those problems and many more are our problems to solve, and we will do it alone if necessary.

I lived and worked for over 9 years in China from 1989 to 1999.  I was married to educated Chinese women (one owned a high rise building company and one was a medical doctor.).  I was a reader of Chinese history and a lover of the Chinese people, and I still am.  But(!), the Chinese are good business people and have/had a long term planning ability that is/was second to none I had experienced before.  They also have a population that cannot be ignored when it comes to righting the wrongs of Mao et al in that they MUST be fed, they must have a future, they must feel self-worth.  So their government set about maximizing value taken from wealthy trading partners.  Nothing wrong with that, we'd all do the same I believe.  All that Donald Trump has asked for is a more balanced relationship and a stop to the theft, as much as that is possible.

[Guest]

Papillon, don't take their shit. Remember my bios of them all on Time Mag thread ....

Ward will be way too busy soon arguing with AI so he's out the picture anyway.

#terminator

Edited December 14, 2019 by Guest

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

4 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Debt pays for the American carriers and military.  We've long moved past the point where we're using non-debt money to pay for anything.  

And since the American government can generate infinite amounts of debt, the carriers in effect are "free."  This talk about "Americans paying for stuff to keep peace in the world," etc. has long become obsolete.  

People think of national finances like the way they think of their personal finances.  "I've got a limited amount of money to spend on priorities, and by extension so does 'America'".   That's flawed.  National finances don't work at all like personal finances.  If it did, America and China and Japan would have gone bankrupt 15 years ago.  

We discussed this In the economics thread

You rightly pointed out it's all based on mutual trust. We'll see if that survives the coming Repo meltdown. The "too big to fail" Banks are gaming the system and intend to force the hand (again) of the Central Banks. The entire economic system doomed to die because of greed and "year end bonuses", which are virtually tax free because of "carried interest" loophole. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

7 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

We discussed this In the economics thread

You rightly pointed out it's all based on mutual trust. We'll see if that survives the coming Repo meltdown. The "too big to fail" Banks are gaming the system and intend to force the hand (again) of the Central Banks. The entire economic system doomed to die because of greed and "year end bonuses", which are virtually tax free because of "carried interest" loophole. 

Also "equity based compensation" loophole

[remake it + 288]

14 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

As I'm sure you are aware, since WWII a very large part of U.S. international trade and defense strategy involved allowing access to the massive U.S. markets, both goods and financial markets.  That promoted international wealth creation and hence less looking around for who I can beat in a war and steal it from.  Combine that with projected U.S. military strength, which ensures trade routes can be plied without fear of loss or fear of most invasions, paid for by the U.S. taxpayers, as Jan pointed out, and the world is in the best place financially and is enjoying the longest peacetime in history.  Markets to absorb everybody's products and security to go about that wealth building without constant fear of invasion. 

This US-centric view of the world conveniently forgets that the USA has really only done itself favors in international trade and has had to rely on its reserve currency status for financial dominance which is a lesson heeded by China who - through Belt & Road - is now helping to  develop those many nations previously neglected by the USA.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, remake it said:

How exactly does that "conscience" manifest as it seems a delusion unique to its populace and for example why did the President of the USA (or the rest of the world for that matter) do precisely nothing when implored by the Dalai Lama upon being invaded by China in 1950?

Dangerous talk for a hong jun ji qi ren

Maybe your handler needs to rebalance your tensor string algorithm? I could give some advice, but don't think I should. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 hours ago, Marcin said:

1. It is one of best target countries for immigrants from developing countries (but no match with Western&Northern EU countries), mainly because of the porous borders and it is easy to hide among other 20 million illegal aliens (It is still amazing to me how federal (abide the law) and state (protect criminals=illegal aliens) authorities could fight with themselves about illegal aliens. Total anarchy.)

2. For 80% of people from lower-middle class to upper-middle class spending 200,000 USD on good education is insane, and one of major reasons why US becomes closed castes, oligarchic society with low upward mobility. In the age of skilled, sophisticated workforce, no money for good tertiary education and you are doomed.

3. Real wages of lower 80% of earners has not risen since 1970s. Generation of people born in 1980-1995 is the first one that is not richer but poorer than their parents.

life of provileged 5 or 10% is easy in every society, 95% of immigrants reaching US are low skilled they are balast.

Wrong on all of the above statements. We have the most immigrants, we have the largest middle class and, with President Trump, middle class incomes are rising again. People born  in 1980 to 1998 are not even old enough to have reached prime earning years.