Boris Johnson taken decision about 5G

[Rob Plant + 2,600]

39 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Thanks for that Rob!

I guess I am just at that advanced age where 5G just doesn’t seem like something that I couldn’t live without in my personal life. Unlike many I see around me, usually younger, I do not live my life on my phone and I am in no danger of walking into an open manhole while texting. That said, the commercial and military applications of 5G are obvious. It also becomes obvious why Western countries should be very wary of utilizing any Huawei hard or software...common sense actually.

Yep the highlighted part of your answer is why 5G is so important to all countries.

Its a tad worrying for the West that Huawei seem to have the lead on this currently.

I actually agree with Marcin that the West should hugely invest in alternatives to Huawei in order to protect National Security, and we a talking hundreds of billions of $.

It's particularly concerning to me that my own country doesn't seem to think this is important.

[Marcin2 + 724]

An interesting observation

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

26 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

17 hours ago

I am sorry for teasing Ward, but I am amused by his suspicions and also is really not nice that he again states that I am just a paid shill, and even more outrageous is his claim that I earn 0.5 yuan (7 cents) per post. The rates could be about 500 yuan (70 US dollars) per 500-word comment like this one.

Tom, actually IP number could be made to look Polish by simple rerouting information from any point in the world through wireless transmission and using genuine Warsaw place, rented by sb, best with Polish residence. This set up makes tracing the signal to original source impossible, and the signal looks genuine. The trace is lost at this Warsaw flat.

I think I also know what is Ward’s point although he never actually precisely stated this, overhelmed by his anger.

The good set up for Chinese operative would be to create his background story in the way similar to my actual data. The operative pretends he never visited China, which is good, because many people here frequently travel to China or have Chinese relatives, so speaking about Chinese experience could reveal specific information that only Chinese resident could know. And because it is a personal experience of Chinese wumao, there is high probability such facts could be accidentally released. Choosing small European country, but on the right side of the geopolitical divide is a good move, it adds a lot to the credibility of the foreign asset. Also the country is large enough for the people to have stereotypes relating to this country, so having personal perception as being familiar with the knowledge about this country. But actually American knowledge is very shallow, so strengthening stereotypes again adds a lot to the credibility.

The way I comment could be perceived as a way to disseminate Chinese propaganda in a subtle way. I am harshly criticizing CCP, Chinese dictatorship etc., unlike for example remake it or frankfurter, which again adds to my credibility cause unlike these 2 commenters, readers do not automatically guard themselves against perceived Chinese propaganda.

I am openly speaking of the possibility of being wumao or Chinese, frankfurter or remake it are reluctant to do it, which again adds you know to what. I am defending my background but not in a combative way, just like normal personal would, but confident person, not afraid of internet trolling. I insist on presenting unbiased information about anything at this forum, and concentrate on facts, numbers, with small dosage of comments, which again adds to …

The majority of the comments are pure facts, but Ward’s perception is that it is way too many of facts, about multitude of topics, as if I am using some type of external feed. Also some comments and choice of threads I start could be perceived as a care about demise of US as a superpower but also sophisticated praising of the Rise of China phenomenon. Also this choice could be provided by external feed.

People populating this forum are down-to-earth (literally) middle management and entrepreneurs which have established views/opinions and can smell bullsh*t from a distance, cause others try to feed them with it all the time. So speaking language of facts is the best way to influence them.
 

First off, I'm not angry at all with you, unless of course you really are collecting $70 for what you just typed!

The quote italicized is roughly exactly what I was considering in your case, as I believe I made clear in multiple unpaid posts here. Interestingly, one could just as easily view what you've said as bragging vs defense. No one other than me was connecting those disparate dots, you could have left them as an enigma. 

Irregardless, I'm not worried about you at all. If you are wumaodang I respect that, although you've exhibited enough intelligence to date that I'd have a hard time believing your heart is in defending the ruling hierarchy when you've got more on the ball than they do. If you were an expat Chinese living in Europe (even Poland) that would connect the last dots for me. But no mind, I'll leave off with the wumao talk unless you go hyperbolic in some future thread. 

These forums should never be about emotion, only intellect. They who shall not be named attempted to turn it into a scrum and I for one took umbrage at that. Keep it high level my friend, and even if you are Xi himself I'm happy to continue the dialog. Carry on 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

15 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas there appear to be 3 main benefits of 5G detailed below

5G is projected to bring three main benefits:

• Faster speed: Data transfer speeds are projected to be about 10 times higher with 5G than is possible with 4G. That means significantly faster transmission of images and videos. With 4G/LTE, downloading a high-definition movie might take about 10 minutes. With 5G, it should take less than a second.
• Shorter delays: Though it’s not always noticeable, there is often a brief lag in time from when data is sent to when it’s received. 5G should reduce this so-called latency, making it possible, for example, to watch high-speed virtual reality video with no delays or glitches.
• Increased connectivity: Cell towers equipped with 5G technology would have greatly increased capacity over 4G/LTE. That means more people — and more devices — should be able to

Your first 2 points are blatantly false.  Download speed and latency are unchanged compared to current 4G+. When ppl post their 5G rubbish they are comparing against 4G and not the INSTALLED 4G+ which is what everyone is already using. 

Your last point is the only true reason.  5G has nothing to do with the end user.  Has everything to do with the backbone. 

[Leroy Cox + 7]

Hmm, Washington's attack on Huawei (inc. arresting its financial director) shows that competition via economic-technological means is not possible for US in this instance. Similarly, Trump is trying to force US LNG onto EU consumers via political means, since Russian piped gas costs less (compared to arrived and warmed US LNG, not to LNG for purchase in USA) and more dense in terms of energy/calories; similarly with S-400 for Turkey So when countries develop rapidly like China, and/or build cooperative relations with each other, it upsets Washington. So much for "market competition",  "international cooperation", and "rules-based order".  

Edited January 24, 2020 by Leroy Cox

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:43 AM, Marcin2 said:

No Tom, the answer is the United States, because of lack of frequencies.

Mid-band frequencies ( around 3.5 GHz ) the backbone of 5G are all used at the moment by incumbent users:

3.1-3.7 by military for radar infrastructure 

3.7-4.2 by civilian ground satelite infrastructure 

Only around 2020-2021 at earliest FCC will organize auction for frequencies relieved by satellite companies.

Per historical pace of action in this area ( the problem is widely known  since 2015) the frequencies will be ready for 5 G not earlier than 2022-2023.

 

The 5G towers are building out anyway, and so is the switching and routing. And the breadbox microsatelite near earth orbit network is being prepared for launch. The frequencies will be available via direct sale from the satellite companies BEFORE the auctions. 5G is already operational in some cities.  

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Leroy Cox said:

Hmm, Washington's attack on Huawei (inc. arresting its financial director) shows that competition via economic-technological means is not possible for US in this instance. Similarly, Trump is trying to force US LNG onto EU consumers via political means, since Russian piped gas costs less (compared to arrived and warmed US LNG, not to LNG for purchase in USA) and more dense in terms of energy/calories; similarly with S-400 for Turkey So when countries develop rapidly like China, and/or build cooperative relations with each other, it upsets Washington. So much for "market competition",  "international cooperation", and "rules-based order".  

Huawei loses money on every installation. The Chinese government is picking up the tab.

Russian Nat Gas is sold at Ruble breakeven prices. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCUSMA02RUM618N

The Rubble trades at a near fixed value to oil and gas. The Russian population's standard of living does not concern Putin, only his energy market share matters, so the currency will trade at whatever level maintains or expands Russia's market share. 

It is similar to the China problem. If the currency were to adjust to its PPP equivalence level then not a a single thing made in China would find an export market. Just as Huawei equipment is a loss leader for the Chinese intelligence services..I would bet that they would install it for free if they cared to obtain your communications content. . 

[0R0 + 6,251]

@Marcin2 The technology stock bull market that took off late last year is in part counting on the mass adoption of 5G this year. You are reading the wrong conclusions into the real debacles the FCC created. Many US carriers have deployed short range shorter wave towers in dense downtowns of metros, pretty much at every street corner. Those are intended mainly for transportation, though with a 5G Samsung you can use it for phones already. The second stage 3-5 GHz.is satellite borne and will be available worldwide. It will also reduce the need for backbone capacity and base stations.  

Among the companies that have jumped 50-100% recently are those who's entire business depends on 5G rollouts. The market is sniffing out a fast deployment, presumably when the rockets launching the breadbox microsatellites are sufficiently reliable not to blow up along with their billion dollar cargo. 

 

[Marcin2 + 724]

I am not tech savvy so not aware of political and technical intricacies of FCC functioning that bother you.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Marcin2 + 724]

The only fast 5G and the one that can cover 98+% of any given country is in 2.5-5 GHz mid-band.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Rob Plant + 2,600]

On 1/23/2020 at 12:23 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Your first 2 points are blatantly false.  Download speed and latency are unchanged compared to current 4G+. When ppl post their 5G rubbish they are comparing against 4G and not the INSTALLED 4G+ which is what everyone is already using. 

Your last point is the only true reason.  5G has nothing to do with the end user.  Has everything to do with the backbone. 

In your opinion

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

22 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

In your opinion

Not opinion, fact.  Fact; 4G+ is faster than 5G currently by a very substantial margin.  Ping is based on # of users and then vast majority is the backbone and has not single thing to do with latency between you and the tower.  Download speed is based entirely on bandwidth available x theoretical which is directly proportional to frequency range.  So, if $$$ is no issue then theoretically 5G can be faster by a tiny amount. 

Do cell phone companies not care about $$$?  Duh.  They are going to optimize the bandwidth to # of users.  5G allows cell phone companies to install FEWER base stations for same number of people giving same amount of bandwidth.  Assuming the station in question is tied to a large enough backbone......

Reality: 5G means theoretically Internet to your phone will be cheaper.  Not faster. 

[Rob Plant + 2,600]

I never mentioned once 4G+ this was you and you only so don't misquote me in future please.

i believe that is the FACT

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Not opinion, fact.  Fact; 4G+ is faster than 5G currently by a very substantial margin.  Ping is based on # of users and then vast majority is the backbone and has not single thing to do with latency between you and the tower.  Download speed is based entirely on bandwidth available x theoretical which is directly proportional to frequency range.  So, if $$$ is no issue then theoretically 5G can be faster by a tiny amount. 

Do cell phone companies not care about $$$?  Duh.  They are going to optimize the bandwidth to # of users.  5G allows cell phone companies to install FEWER base stations for same number of people giving same amount of bandwidth.  Assuming the station in question is tied to a large enough backbone......

Reality: 5G means theoretically Internet to your phone will be cheaper.  Not faster. 

Gee, too bad we can't just Look it up

 

[Marcin2 + 724]

An interesting observation

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Marcin2 + 724]

An interesting observation

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Marcin2 + 724]

An interesting observation

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[0R0 + 6,251]

Sprint do 2.5 GHz from its 4G LTE service where the service is live. US is more spread out, so lower frequencies are going to be used - below the international 3-5 Ghz. mmwave is already in place in the 30 largest US cities at downtown districts and expanding outwards. As it is not workable in buildings, it is intended for car and on the go and for future transportation use for real time functions rather than phones, which is the main target for 5G sub 6 Ghz. Phones are just not where it's at. You only get a higher user density and not much gain in speed vs. 4G LTE which is ubiquitous in the US. Only mmWave gets you the high speed that changes things materially. Engineers are still arguing if sub 6 is 5G at all. Anyway, the mmWave tech uses small antennae that can be mounted on existing telephone poles, about 2 million of them. 

Sprint already use MIMO beaming technology to allow higher user density on its 2.5 Ghz network. It is also  applied to mmWave to allow DAS multipath to reach a user from an antennae array, which also allows beaming to combine the array's coverage at the user's location with a sufficient signal to overcome attenuation from a window. So far the carriers offer buildings a 5G outside to indoor advanced WiFi hotspot service. 

From what I saw so far, the carriers are not that hot about sub 6 Ghz at all. and 3.5 Ghz and 3.6 Ghz are supposed to be unused so should be available. 

The upgrade of 4G stations to 5G stations on existing 4G LTE frequencies provides 200Mbit rates, vs. regular 4G of 31 MBit. I am unclear as to how you get a 1Gbit speed on a sub 6 network. But it is easily doable in mmWave, which is what everyone is building on in the US. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:21 AM, Ward Smith said:

Gee, too bad we can't just Look it up

Sorry, thought those who "know" reality(engineers) should be able to parse PR BS when they see it.  Your link...

Look up LTE 4G Pro and why no one wanted it.  It has the higher frequency just like 5G.  It has the lower Ping just like 5G.  It has the same bandwidth as 5G

Why was 4G+ Pro not implemented(Ok it was in a few places)?  Because it is useless for anything other than short ranged L-O-S.  Trees, buildings, cars, rain utterly destroy its viability.  These things called REALITY, drops its ping to same as 4G advanced and bandwidth to same as 4G advanced as it has to frequency switch to lower bands to make a connection.  Which means the REALITY of 5G is nothing but PR and worse, it forces the end user to BUY, install, maintain, etc repeaters everywhere.  So, unless you are going to perch yer arse right next to that sexy 5G cancer inducing flesh frier called an antenna, you will never see anything even close to the claims put out in PR BS "media reports". 

Same reason no one wants 5Ghz tranceivers in their home for internal wireless.  Its range is abysmally short(walls, furniture etc destroy its range) and power levels are not allowed to be higher.  So, everyone sticks to 2.4Ghz wireless. 

 

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 1/22/2020 at 11:19 AM, Marcin2 said:

Thank you Tom. My opinion is I am really pro American and anti-Chinese by general political affiliation, but with bias of the person living in small country, surrounded by strong neighbours with no geographical boundaries.

What I really do not like in Americans is how you live in the distant past, in 1990s at best, it is already 2020 btw.

I will give you 1 really good example how most of recent US foreign policies is all talk no walk and frequent sabre rattling.

Trump policies of China high tech containment, mainly in 5G area/Huawei.

April 2018: ZTE was embargoed. Nuclear option used against one of the largest global tech sector companies.

US has shown that it can destroy any Chinese company by US export controls.

THE PROJECT: China since the day 1 of the ZTE embargo gathered all the political and later economical and scientific resources of the country to prevent success of US policies. All Chinese technology gaps were mapped, especially US technology gaps and vulnerabilities and action plans were made to solve these problems and close these gaps.

This project will not stop till is succesfully finished, no matter what would be external situation.

It was Day 1 of their Sputnik moment, they doubled down on China 2025, R&D spending etc, technology war started.

And US actions ?

There was some solution to the ZTE conundrum. But later in 2018 focus of US politics was moved to trade war and tariffs, objectives of second importance.

But China knew that technology war has started and still worked with all the might of the country and its businesses to not allow the success of technology containment policies.

May 2019: After 13 months of Chinese preparations, United States finally decided to hit Huawei. Because Huawei was preparing for this move for 13 months it was not crippled, to the astonishment of US authorities. All other Chinese companies were also preparing so were also not astonished when further embargos were administered by US.

January 2020:  We are now 1 year and 9 months (23 months) into Chinese The Project.

US actions: 

Diplomatic offensive to ban Huawei with subtle blackmail of possible US sanctions. Only recently 1.2 billion dollars were allocated for 5G R&D by Congress.

Facts: 3 companies are able to provide 5G gear: Ericsson, Nokia and Huawei. Ericcson and Nokia were in deep financial troubles in the last 5 years, so did not have funds to scale up production and invest in R&D. They are behind Huawei and this technology gap is rising cause Huawei spends 15 billion USD on R&D and Nokia and Ericsson about 4-5 billion USD each. They also cannot scale up 5G manufacturing cause are generally much smaller companies still in the survival mode.

What US should do ?

- Technology embargos cannot be announced 13 months in advance. Their success depends on element of surprise and accross the board application to whole technology sector. Now Chinese are acting in line with worst case scenario, no element of surprise.

- US should from Day 1 support both Nokia and Ericcson with substantial R&D grants, lets say 30 billion dollars for each company to be spent in 10 years time. Furthermore companies should be awarded substantial grants to expand manufacturing base in US. Additionally subsidies and tax exemptions should be provided for companies that want to use Nordic telecom equipment. In short: US should be prepared to spend in total 200 billion dollars starting from 2018 to compete with Huawei.

With the prospects of reliable supply of 5G equipment by Ericcson/Nokia at competitive prices it would be much easier to convince all allies to not use Huawei equipment.

And last but not least: US should create conditions for fast domestic 5G deployment: these frequencies around 3.5 GHz should be made available in 2018, 2019 the latest and not in 2022

This was very pro-American comment in my opinion.

Load of crap. 5G is simply faster mobile service. Much better to invest in Optical fibre network like Australia has done?

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

14 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Sorry, thought those who "know" reality(engineers) should be able to parse PR BS when they see it.  Your link...

Look up LTE 4G Pro and why no one wanted it.  It has the higher frequency just like 5G.  It has the lower Ping just like 5G.  It has the same bandwidth as 5G

Why was 4G+ Pro not implemented(Ok it was in a few places)?  Because it is useless for anything other than short ranged L-O-S.  Trees, buildings, cars, rain utterly destroy its viability.  These things called REALITY, drops its ping to same as 4G advanced and bandwidth to same as 4G advanced as it has to frequency switch to lower bands to make a connection.  Which means the REALITY of 5G is nothing but PR and worse, it forces the end user to BUY, install, maintain, etc repeaters everywhere.  So, unless you are going to perch yer arse right next to that sexy 5G cancer inducing flesh frier called an antenna, you will never see anything even close to the claims put out in PR BS "media reports". 

Same reason no one wants 5Ghz tranceivers in their home for internal wireless.  Its range is abysmally short(walls, furniture etc destroy its range) and power levels are not allowed to be higher.  So, everyone sticks to 2.4Ghz wireless. 

 

Dude Dude, don't play that game with me. I worked long and hard on 802.16 and know all about hype vs reality. My "reality" delivered 20 years ago, yet didn't move the carriers for dozens of reasons. That didn't stop them from treating WiMAX like an ala carte menu to bandaid up their usual mess. Look that up

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

Lots of useless speculation about 5G and uninformed opinion. Before any of you dare to lecture ME about Shannon encoding and Nyquist, I suggest you live a little longer, maybe actually learn something. There are many schools to choose from. Attend them, then get back to me. 

You're all acting like the only use of 5G is your dumb handset. Rather than the hundred or so devices supported by a cell tower, you'll now allow Millions of devices. Many of them will be static and will assuredly be connected at very high speed. Also, because you're clueless on the subject, you've neglected forward error correction completely. LDPC alone will be the equivalent of 15db more signal strength. And as every engineer knows db is logarithmic. The frequencies are quite literally the least item of concern. If I were to link actual engineering diagrams you'd see that. 

If I thought any of you were capable, we could discuss the nuances of trellis coded modulation versus frequency shift keying in a dynamic environment. 

[Andrew Neopalimy + 14]

On 21.01.2020 at 17:43, Marcin2 said:

Нет, Том, ответ - Соединенные Штаты из-за нехватки частот.

Частоты средней полосы (около 3,5 ГГц), магистраль 5G, в настоящее время используются действующими пользователями:

3.1-3.7 военными для радиолокационной инфраструктуры 

3.7-4.2 по гражданской наземной спутниковой инфраструктуре 

Только в 2020-2021 годах FCC организует аукцион по частотам, снятым спутниковыми компаниями.

В соответствии с историческими темпами действий в этой области (проблема широко известна с 2015 года), частоты будут готовы к 5 G не ранее 2022–2023 годов.

 

 

On 21.01.2020 at 17:56, Tom Kirkman said:

Интересный.

3,5 ГГц является (или, по крайней мере, был ) довольно открытой группой.

Запатентованные системы мониторинга ValveWatch, которые я установил на морских нефтяных платформах, использовали 3,5 ГГц для беспроводной связи, потому что полоса 3,5 ГГц доступна в свободном доступе, как правило, не подлежит лицензированию в большинстве частей мира.

Конечно, это было десять лет назад, и доступность открытой частоты в полосе 3,5 ГГц, возможно, изменилась с тех пор.

 

On 21.01.2020 at 17:59, Marcin2 said:

Huawei развернула 600 000 базовых станций в 2019 году и планирует 1 500 000 в 2020 году.

- ASPI: | Australian Strategic Policy Institute - 5G, 5G relationship - https://chinatechmap.aspi.org.au/#/map/f5-5G%20relationship,f6-5G (Mapping China’s Tech Giants - https://chinatechmap.aspi.org.au/#/map/)

Немецким телекоммуникациям необходимо покрытие 98% до конца 2022 года (покрытие в полосе 3,5 ГГц). Технически достижимо только с оборудованием Huawei.

- Today, 5G networks are just starting to roll out. The current 4G LTE standard will dominate for several more years, as telecom carriers seek to recoup their massive investments on that infrastructure. Pouttu projects current 4G networks won’t really be used to their full potential until about 2025 (Ari Pouttu, a professor at the University of Oulu in Finland) https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/21/6g-research-starting-before-5g/

 

 

[Selva + 252]

Just a reminder for new members. According to Community Guidelines, all comments must be posted in English so that everyone can have the opportunity to respond to it. Thank you! 

 

 

[Andrew Neopalimy + 14]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:06 AM, Marcin2 said:

Boris Johnson, at first sight does not look like very smart and cunning politician.

He is friends with Donald Trump, cares a lot about special US-UK relations, but actually cares more about UK.

In April 2019 Theresa May, allowed Huawei limited access to help build parts of the network such as antennas and other “noncore” infrastructure.

Meanwhile, fast, very fast building of 5G infrastructure (by Huawei) started in Britain.

The decision whether to ban Huawei or not was left for Theresa May successor.

Boris Johnson became PM in July 2019, but was so preoccupied with Brexit, that till today 21 January 2020. he had no time to take the final decision.

But decision was already taken by facts on the ground, by Boris Johson delay, in  the form of billions of pounds spent on the deployment of Huawei infrastructure.

Assume that tomorrow (very unlikely) decision will be to ban Huawei from British 5G network. It would take months to rip off the Huawei infrastructure and billions of pounds in damages paid to telecoms, which were in line with all regulations. In total 5G deployment in Britain could be postponed by 2-3 years.

And Trump will not make Huawei great again and will not reimburse Britain for lost money.

But now it is January 2020 and Germany is waiting for British decision.

If UK, part of 5 Eyes decided to allow Huawei, Germany can safely go ahead too.

And the question that seems tricky but is not.

What is the name of the only G-7 country that would not have 5G till at least 2025 and second part of the question is why ?

 

 

 

On 1/21/2020 at 5:59 PM, Marcin2 said:

 

Huawei deployed 600,000 base stations in 2019 and plans 1,500,000 in 2020.

- "The China is due to activate more than 130,000 5G base stations by the end of this year [2020] to support the system"