ronwagn

Historian Slams Greta. I Don't See Her in Beijing or Delhi.

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1 minute ago, Enthalpic said:

To repeat, he says her message is correct, she is just speaking to the wrong people.

“Her message”

what a joke that is!

If you seriously think this is her message then I’ll have what you’re smoking mate!

can you not see how brazenly she is being used by those with a climate agenda (or is that a financial agenda)?

youre a smart guy I’m sure you don’t actually believe this!

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Just now, Ward Smith said:

You're the only one saying GHG. The caption says "biggest polluters". Seems to me there's all kinds of pollution, and given that all life on earth's surface needs CO2 to survive, I'm not convinced it's a pollutant. 

As for per capita pollution, that's ridiculous. Either it's bad in toto or it isn't. 

That map is specifically PM 2.5 and PM 10 average annual exposures. The monitoring of these does not distinguish between natural sources and anthropogenic. That may explain why the highest levels appear to be over desert regions.

As for CO2 no one is arguing to eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere but to slow or ideally stop its concentration increasing. 

You say its not a pollutant - try breathing in an atmosphere with 50% CO2 by volume and see what happens. 

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(edited)

37 minutes ago, NickW said:

Have you considered perhaps that she genuinely believes this and her parents simply help her articulate her message?

No question about it. I have a friend who used to be a professional model and now has a teenager about Greta's age. Like many "in showbiz", she pushed her no talent daughter into acting. I had the misfortune of going to a play her daughter "acted" in. Woodenly delivered lines, absurd facial expressions that didn't match circumstance or context. If I didn't know better, because I know the girl when she's not onstage, I too would have thought she had autism. But I know better, she simply had no talent. I'm certain Greta's parents figured out their dear little girl likewise was talent deficient, but by gawd they wanted their little darling on stage. What better place for utter narcissists like them, than to see her feted by the world on the world stage? 

Mnuchin was right, before a little twit like that lectures her betters, she'd better actually accomplish something with her life, and perhaps get an actual edumacation. 

Edited by Ward Smith
Stinking auto-correct
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42 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Could it be because Greta's message is BEING FORCIBLY SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS and MSM does not allow us to ignore the message from Greta and HER ADULT HANDLERS? 

Just a thought.

That’s exactly how Trump works. He knows his supporters will follow his hyperbole instead of what issues are much more important. He is the media president. So carry on with Gretta. Other than here at Oilprice.com I personally bypassed every post in the media. I have a filter. 

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3 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

No question about it. I have a friend who used to be a personal model and now has a teenager about Greta's age. Like many "in showbiz", she pushed her no talent daughter into acting. I had the misfortune of going to a play her daughter "acted" in. Woodenly delivered lines, absurd facial expressions that didn't match circumstance or context. If I didn't know better, because I know the girl when she's not onstage, I too would have thought she had autism. But I know better, she simply had no talent. I'm certain Greta's parents figured out their dear little girl likewise was talent deficient, but by gawd they wanted their little darling on stage. What better place for utter narcissists like them, than to see her feted by the world on the world stage? 

Mnuchin was right, before a little twit like that lectures her betters, she'd better actually accomplish something with her life, and perhaps get an actual edumacation. 

Well the accounts of her child hood are one of her behaviours influencing her parents as she became more concerned about the environment. They weren't particularly eco minded but Gretas influence gradually changed that. Unless its all one big conspiracy it may be more a case of her influencing them. 

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4 minutes ago, NickW said:

That map is specifically PM 2.5 and PM 10 average annual exposures. The monitoring of these does not distinguish between natural sources and anthropogenic. That may explain why the highest levels appear to be over desert regions.

As for CO2 no one is arguing to eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere but to slow or ideally stop its concentration increasing. 

You say its not a pollutant - try breathing in an atmosphere with 50% CO2 by volume and see what happens. 

Perhaps @ronwagn can show us the source. Your link doesn't show anything comparable. 

Reducto ad absurdum arguments are absurd as you well know. 

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13 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

“Her message”

what a joke that is!

If you seriously think this is her message then I’ll have what you’re smoking mate!

can you not see how brazenly she is being used by those with a climate agenda (or is that a financial agenda)?

youre a smart guy I’m sure you don’t actually believe this!

OK "the message."

No, I don't think she discovered climate change. 

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2 minutes ago, NickW said:

Well the accounts of her child hood are one of her behaviours influencing her parents as she became more concerned about the environment. They weren't particularly eco minded but Gretas influence gradually changed that. Unless its all one big conspiracy it may be more a case of her influencing them. 

"Accounts of her child hood" conveniently provided by the selfsame narcissist parents who are promoting their no talent daughter? It's not even a big conspiracy, it's merely a lie. 

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(edited)

13 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

No question about it. I have a friend who used to be a personal model and now has a teenager about Greta's age. Like many "in showbiz", she pushed her no talent daughter into acting. I had the misfortune of going to a play her daughter "acted" in. Woodenly delivered lines, absurd facial expressions that didn't match circumstance or context. If I didn't know better, because I know the girl when she's not onstage, I too would have thought she had autism. But I know better, she simply had no talent. I'm certain Greta's parents figured out their dear little girl likewise was talent deficient, but by gawd they wanted their little darling on stage. What better place for utter narcissists like them, than to see her feted by the world on the world stage? 

Mnuchin was right, before a little twit like that lectures her betters, she'd better actually accomplish something with her life, and perhaps get an actual edumacation. 

This is common is under achieved parents, or parents who never had the balls to do certain things, they project themselves in their children , you have seen football Dads and kids games going berserk at the ref etc. I personally mentored a teen racer in WSBK World Super Bike Racing who had the talent to become a MotoGP racer, I saw him as an eight year old and sponsored him until it got to a stage where we needed the big boys to step in, and they did, Yamaha. However during this time the pressure from parents and other wannabe parents pressured this kid so hard that even I as his mentor couldn't control him and he just gave up, he gave up the thing that at one point in his life was the be all and end all, he loved it so much, but due to pure peer pressure and the madness of under achievers who by birthright have control of said persons life. Its a shame to see it happening when its right in front of you and your hands are tied.

Greta will require a lot of support once she drops out of fashion and that the reality she is just good for the moment, a la mode.....

Edited by James Regan
This is called child exploitation and is a crime
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Just now, Ward Smith said:

"Accounts of her child hood" conveniently provided by the selfsame narcissist parents who are promoting their no talent daughter? It's not even a big conspiracy, it's merely a lie. 

Well on the evidence trail its even stevens because you have no evidence to back that either. I'm open minded. Its certainly not the first time a child / youth have learnt something at school and educated their parents. 

I got my Dad to switch to unleaded petrol in 1986 following a Biology lesson

Childrens interest in recycling has been a significant driver in getting adults to partake. 

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44 minutes ago, NickW said:

Posting that picture of Africa as if it implies they are the biggest GHG polluter is ridiculous. I used to like Watson but now view him as a Fake News merchant and that WHO map just backs that point up - as if some Peasant in Chad and Mali is the biggest polluter in the world🙄

Greta Thunbergs (or her handlers) remit is over global warming gases and not specifically local pollution. That global map is a representation of particulate exposures (PM 2.5 & PM 10). For certain the bulk of exposures in North Africa and across central Asia are from natural sources like wind blown desert dust. They are not harmless but nor are they something we have much control over either. 

If you want to look at GHG emissions then CO2 emission per capita is the best parameter. This would be a better a guide as to who has the most prolific emissions and thus most opportunity to cut

https://www.carbon-dioxide-properties.com/CO2/Maps/CO2Emissions#.Xitd5m52uUl

Top of the League  examples (>10 tonnes per capita per year)

Qatar 40

Kuwait 27

UAE 19

USA 16

Australia 16

Canada 13

Russia 12

South Korea 12

Norway 11

Netherlands 10

 

Middle Ranking

Japan <10

Germany <10

South Africa  9

New Zealand 8

China 8

Iran 8

Uk 7

Italy 6

France 5

 

Lower ranks

India 1.6

Pakistan < 1.0

Bangladesh <0.5

 

On the basis of the above GT's focus should be on the top rank and upper end of the middle ranks. I wouldn't worry too much about India with emissions per head at one tenth of the USA

A few years ago it was Gibraltar that was worst per person. It’s a rock with no resources but apparently they have money for energy.

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Just now, Ward Smith said:

Ambient mean PM (particulate matter), in other words actual pollution! Nothing to do with CO2 but thanks for playing and thanks for making my point

My view on his

Greta's campaign  is primarily about global warming

In response Ferguson criticises her for not focussing on China and India and then that fake news goon publishes a response using a WHO map which is ambient PM 2.5 (most of which is from natural sources in rural Africa and Asia) to imply that she should focus on where the 'pollution' is worst.

For starters that pollution map is misleading. Photo optical meters than measure air borne particulate matter do not / cannot distinguish between natural pollutants (mainly silicates) and anthropogenic sources (mainly combustion source) 

secondly as her focus is Global warming then naturally here attention should be on the highest emitters (which are not Mali, Chad or India) and not getting side tracked into how much desert dust Ahmed the Toureg tribesman is breathing in Chad. 

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And why is she whining at us? She does need to go to China and India, and the countries that are pounding out that CO2 into the atmosphere. What are we supposed to do about those countries? At what point do we have to be to satisfy? Killing all power generation and living in log cabins, firewood for heat? This is why I don't listen to any of this nonsense anymore. The developed countries have reduced their emissions in the last couple of decades. It's their turn. Me personally? I'm going to keep driving my Suburban everywhere. All 15.8 MPH of it. Don't care anymore, tired of hearing it....

And please explain to me why banning plastic straws in Cali is going to help the turtles? Most of that garbage in the Pacific doesn't come from the US, so what impact do the politicians believe that a ban is going to have? Ignorant people doing jobs they are not qualified to do...

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7 minutes ago, SERWIN said:

And why is she whining at us? She does need to go to China and India, and the countries that are pounding out that CO2 into the atmosphere. What are we supposed to do about those countries? At what point do we have to be to satisfy? Killing all power generation and living in log cabins, firewood for heat? This is why I don't listen to any of this nonsense anymore. The developed countries have reduced their emissions in the last couple of decades. It's their turn. Me personally? I'm going to keep driving my Suburban everywhere. All 15.8 MPH of it. Don't care anymore, tired of hearing it....

And please explain to me why banning plastic straws in Cali is going to help the turtles? Most of that garbage in the Pacific doesn't come from the US, so what impact do the politicians believe that a ban is going to have? Ignorant people doing jobs they are not qualified to do...

China maybe although they only emit 1/2 the CO2 per capita compared to the USA

Indians emit 1/10th of the CO2 per capita compared to the USA

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55 minutes ago, NickW said:

China maybe although they only emit 1/2 the CO2 per capita compared to the USA

Indians emit 1/10th of the CO2 per capita compared to the USA

China has 1.4 billion people, the US about 325. So China in toto is sending up how much CO2, even if only half the per capita number? Furthermore I'm not convinced cement and aluminum production are in their total. 

_104804187_biggest_cement_producers_976p

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@Ward Smith I would like to focus your attention on 2 topics:

1. map of Africa was an obvious joke

2. when you try to prove sth really hard, your emotions overhelm you and you become ridiculous, like this last comment of yours.

I write it because I really enjoy your normal comments and they add a lot of substance to the discussions.

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5 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

@Ward Smith I would like to focus your attention on 2 topics:

1. map of Africa was an obvious joke

2. when you try to prove sth really hard, your emotions overhelm you and you become ridiculous, like this last comment of yours.

I write it because I really enjoy your normal comments and they add a lot of substance to the discussions.

1) Which map of Africa? The one showing particulate matter? Or the one showing other countries scrunched into the continent? 

2) What does "sth" mean? I'm still not emotional, but suspect you are. 

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6 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Relating China's pollution problems with respiratory disease might indicate that prior respiratory illness could well be a factor in setting up more deaths and severe illness than if they had been breathing cleaner air. It is much like a heavy smoker is in a similar state of health. Imagine if they were also a smoker. 

20 times the particulates of the U.S. limit. https://grist.org/cities/chinas-smog-city-what-wuhan-looks-like-with-20-times-the-u-s-dust-limit/

561a53d2jw1dtu66iouowj.jpeg

Here is a link showing pollution in Wuhan. https://www.google.com/search?q=wuhan+china+pollution&sxsrf=ACYBGNQ0ZgLUOV2jRpnAygOXCGBD9kboPA:1579899139185&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9guP3jp3nAhUOOs0KHe0jDzMQ_AUoAXoECBAQAw&biw=1600&bih=789

Agree. The overall pollution levels in China are unacceptable to her citizens. Everybody wants cleaner air. The causes are many, and thus a one-size-fits-all solution is elusive, and no solution will occur overnight. Believe it or not, much progress has been made over the past 5 years, and continues. Over $200 billion per year is spent to tackle the problem. The new NG pipeline from Russia will transport 40 billion cubic meters annually. Another NG pipeline is in development. [Will affect markets too.] More LNG terminals are in progress. Nuclear is slow to implement, as nobody wants the risks: but China has too many already. China leads the world in renewable tech. So, relief is on the horizon. Meanwhile, the citizens accept and suffer; they consider this a growing pain.

IF anybody here can supply LNG, contact me. 

 

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(edited)

7 hours ago, NickW said:

That map is specifically PM 2.5 and PM 10 average annual exposures. The monitoring of these does not distinguish between natural sources and anthropogenic. That may explain why the highest levels appear to be over desert regions.

As for CO2 no one is arguing to eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere but to slow or ideally stop its concentration increasing. 

You say its not a pollutant - try breathing in an atmosphere with 50% CO2 by volume and see what happens. 

Obviously that is not a worry in ambient air.Gases we Breathe In

Maximum CO2 levels vary for time of exposure but are far beyond outdoor air levels. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/co2-comfort-level-d_1024.html

Particulates are the main issue, especially toxic ones from coal such as sulfur which creates acid rain and water in lakes and the ocean. Coal also leaves mercury, and other pollutants. 

https://www.lung.org/assets/documents/healthy-air/emissions-of-hazardous-air.pdf

Edited by ronwagn
added reference
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7 hours ago, NickW said:

Posting that picture of Africa as if it implies they are the biggest GHG polluter is ridiculous. I used to like Watson but now view him as a Fake News merchant and that WHO map just backs that point up - as if some Peasant in Chad and Mali is the biggest polluter in the world🙄

Greta Thunbergs (or her handlers) remit is over global warming gases and not specifically local pollution. That global map is a representation of particulate exposures (PM 2.5 & PM 10). For certain the bulk of exposures in North Africa and across central Asia are from natural sources like wind blown desert dust. They are not harmless but nor are they something we have much control over either. 

If you want to look at GHG emissions then CO2 emission per capita is the best parameter. This would be a better a guide as to who has the most prolific emissions and thus most opportunity to cut

https://www.carbon-dioxide-properties.com/CO2/Maps/CO2Emissions#.Xitd5m52uUl

Top of the League  examples (>10 tonnes per capita per year)

Qatar 40

Kuwait 27

UAE 19

USA 16

Australia 16

Canada 13

Russia 12

South Korea 12

Norway 11

Netherlands 10

 

Middle Ranking

Japan <10

Germany <10

South Africa  9

New Zealand 8

China 8

Iran 8

Uk 7

Italy 6

France 5

 

Lower ranks

India 1.6

Pakistan < 1.0

Bangladesh <0.5

 

On the basis of the above GT's focus should be on the top rank and upper end of the middle ranks. I wouldn't worry too much about India with emissions per head at one tenth of the USA

Focusing criticism on advanced nations which have already made progress and are continuing to do so is not, by itself, a good plan for reducing worldwide pollution. It is just a scam to bleed them dry while they are asked to import more people from Third World Countries. Another goal is to demonize European culture and its accomplishments around the world.

The logical approach is to encourage ALL countries to do the best they can, and show them how to do it. Only when they are willing to abandon coal can they move to a combination of natural gas and renewables. Coal gasification, coal seam gas, and coal to oil are other possibilities that should be considered but managing the leavings remains a major pollution issue. 

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(edited)

@Ronwagon

Agree. But your proposals are easier said than done. How to solve distribution? China wants NG and has co-built and financed the new pipeline. Have you any idea of the engineering and eviro challenges it posed? And it took how long to complete? And the cost?  Another is in process. Massive problems require massive solutions, funds, and time. If the richer countries do not give the poorer countries grants and EPC, how can poor countries possibly be part of your solution?  All fine and dandy to be an armchair critic, talk is cheap. What are you prepared to give to effect the solutions you propose?  What of your countrymen?  You and your POTUS oppose the Belt Road, to the point you are ready to war against it: yet it would result in one or more of the solutions you propose. Difficult to see your hypocrisy in the mirror, no?  

Edited by frankfurter
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13 hours ago, SERWIN said:

And why is she whining at us? She does need to go to China and India, and the countries that are pounding out that CO2 into the atmosphere. What are we supposed to do about those countries? At what point do we have to be to satisfy? Killing all power generation and living in log cabins, firewood for heat? This is why I don't listen to any of this nonsense anymore. The developed countries have reduced their emissions in the last couple of decades. It's their turn. Me personally? I'm going to keep driving my Suburban everywhere. All 15.8 MPH of it. Don't care anymore, tired of hearing it....

And please explain to me why banning plastic straws in Cali is going to help the turtles? Most of that garbage in the Pacific doesn't come from the US, so what impact do the politicians believe that a ban is going to have? Ignorant people doing jobs they are not qualified to do...

And please explain to me why banning plastic straws in Cali is going to help the turtles? Most of that garbage in the Pacific doesn't come from the US, so what impact do the politicians believe that a ban is going to have? Ignorant people doing jobs they are not qualified to do...

@SERWIN Exactly this is pure PR for tourist destinations, someone throws a straw at the beach in the Caribbean and it ends up in a turtles airway , I don’t think so. The USA are the biggest consumers and wasters of food and recyclable materials on the planet, it’s shocking.

Why can poorer countries make money from recycling but the USA it’s too expensive as a business model to recycle.

Aluminium can recycling is big business in  Brasil but not in the USA , I don’t get it ?

 

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7 hours ago, James Regan said:

Aluminium can recycling is big business in  Brasil but not in the USA , I don’t get it ?

 

In Canada there is a $0.10 deposit on every can, $0.25 on things over a litre. Damn straight those things get recycled.  Even if you toss them in the garbage some homeless person will fish them out of the trash.

When I was in Arizona I asked the hotel staff where the recycling was and they looked at me like my head was on backwards.

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