Trump reinvented tariffs and it worked

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Just as an aside....Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize....for doing absolutely nothing to earn it. Many, myself included, no longer feel that any Nobel Prize is a notable achievement.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

13 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Just as an aside....Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize....for doing absolutely nothing to earn it. Many, myself included, no longer feel that any Nobel Prize is a notable achievement.

Well, in Medicine/Physiology, it has recognized some noteworthy discoveries: Fleming for penicillin; Banting and Best for insulin; Watson and Crick for DNA. It has also made some big mistakes: Montagna for HIV, when Robert Gallo actually did the heavy lifting. 

The Peace Prize? Obama receiving it was on about the same order of magnitude of what the hell is this, as draping the Freedom Medal around Rush Limbaugh's neck. 

So maybe you're right on this one, after all.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Dan, I respect what you have to say, but please, examine the number of suicide hot lines that have been installed in the midwestern states. Farmers are proud people, usually conservative, and are dependable to help others in time of need. 

Okay, now that I've got you wound up, the tariffs were ostensibly implemented to punish China for "stealing intellectual property" and for "currency manipulation." I don't know currency manipulation, but most of the intellectual property was stolen from Apple, possibly the most successful company ever, and also a company that exploited child labor at Foxconn. It got so bad that they had to--I hate to use the S word again--install suicide bars outside the windows at Foxconn. 

As the son of farmers--good people who saw this sort of crap every few years and just gritted their teeth--I am so sick of this. You know, when a father has a daughter who gets raped, he almost never gets violent. Neither do farmers who have to take this in the shorts every time some fat cat wants to make a point. I am a Republican, but I am sickened unto death by this same old rhetoric. I am sorry if I've gone off on you, but now you know what it's like from the other side.

I'm not a farmer, but I recall vividly how it felt to worry if there was enough money to pay the bills. This trade war was just fine--but not for the reasons given. If we wanted to punish China for allowing wet market virus mills to churn out a new zoonotic virus every year--one that threatened the world--that's a good reason for tariffs--I'd vote for 100%. But to punish folks who are barely hanging on, well, that's another damn story.

Thanks, Gerry.  I am aware of the hotlines and the numbers as they pertain to bankruptcies.  The difficulties making ends meet and other hardships.

IP theft, especially that committed by China, actually totals as high as $550 Billion/year.  So it is a lot bigger than Apple and it has been ongoing for years.  I got this information from the The Annual Report of the Council of Economic Advisers last year and made it available on OilPrice a number of times.  The IP theft is in many forms and affects many industries, and the military.

I grew up in a small farming town of about 1,000 people and worked on farms from the age of 12 or 13 (bean walker), through high school & college, and even seasonally after that.  The last time I worked planting and harvesting was about 8 years ago and I'm 56 now.  The best work on the planet, if you ask me.  Nothing compares to looking out over the fields at the end of a day and seeing what you've accomplished.  Of course that only applies to machine work; most of the work is manual labor, repairing machines and everything else, moving grain, scooping out bins and general upkeep.  Some of the farmers I worked for early on went bust, some consolidated and prospered for a few more years, and held on until even they had to sell out to the bigs that are so prevalent nowadays.  Only one of the old boys is still in business for himself, but the banks probably own him by now.

I understand the rest of what you're saying, about the pain of government actions, etc., but I feel the President is doing the right thing this time, even though it still inevitably is painful for farmers.  Like I said at the start of this comment, I am aware of the hotlines and so forth, but since you asked me to please examine them I did a search to refresh my mind.  Interestingly, a search for "suicide lines installed for farmers after tariffs" turned up the following:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-american-farm-bureau-federation-annual-convention-trade-show/

That was on January 19th, 2020, in Austin, Texas.  It's long, but well worth reading.  I believe that farmers and agriculture in general are going to end up better off than if they had continued down the unprotected road they were on with regards to export markets.  We'll see, I suppose. 

I'm on your side, my friend, and that of the farmers as well.  It pains me to my core what has happened to small towns and farms across the country.  If Trump hadn't come in and shaken things up, I think we'd be in worse shape instead of better.  My home town population is now down to about 700, decimated by all the crap that has gone on.  Used to have 2 small town grocery stores, a bank, a hardware store, a bowling alley, 3 full service gas stations with garages/mechanics (I was one of them for a few years), 3 bars, 3 restaurants, 2 car dealerships, 1 animal Vet, 1 Doctor, 4 churches and a school (closed/consolidated with a neighboring town).  Now the only thing left is 1 small self-service gas station and 3 of the churches.  Talk about crap from the government, and the corporations.  It's worse than sad.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Just as an aside....Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize....for doing absolutely nothing to earn it. Many, myself included, no longer feel that any Nobel Prize is a notable achievement.

The peace prize I might agree with you (heck there was some noise about give trump one) but the science ones are awesome and very hard to get.

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

CPI up 2.5% over the last 12 months - that is well above inflation (US consumers paid).

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

Whose net income has gone up 2.5% in the last year?

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

It has also made some big mistakes: Montagna for HIV, when Robert Gallo actually did the heavy lifting. 

It think lead authors taking credit for their grad students' discoveries is very common.

I have read of several recipients giving most of the cash prize to the rest of the group.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

6 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

@Gerry Maddoux

It is really eye opening to me that a man of your apparent intellect & morals is willing to support Trump. 

Although I am not American I lived in the South and the south left a mark on me; for example I still listen primarily to 70s & 80s country. Anyways, the values that I came to know then is so far from what Trump stands for... 

You've got to stand for something. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

5 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

It is really eye opening to me that a man of your apparent intellect & morals is willing to support Trump. 

< sigh >

Looks like I'll just stay over here in this corner and bang my head against the wall.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

< sigh >

Looks like I'll just stay over here in this corner and bang my head against the wall.

To elaborate - I am not saying there's a better alternative to Trump. I am NOT attacking Trump policies. That comment was really more about my understanding of America and Americans... 

[Hotone + 412]

2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

To elaborate - I am not saying there's a better alternative to Trump. I am NOT attacking Trump policies. That comment was really more about my understanding of America and Americans... 

In 2000 when George W was elected, some my expatriate American colleagues (who have high intellect and global exposure) reacted with embarrassment.  It wasn't his policies but rather George W had the image of being not bright, consequently less presidential than Gore.  

Today, the expatriate Americans on this board are some of Trump's most ardent supporters.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Hotone

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

To elaborate - I am not saying there's a better alternative to Trump. I am NOT attacking Trump policies. That comment was really more about my understanding of America and Americans... 

Hi Rasmus.  I think I get you, but something I think you are missing is that the morals and values of one or all of those folks you got to know in the South are not what those same people give a shxt about when it comes to who is in Washington fighting for their interests, real or perceived.  You see, when anyone in Washington or New York or Los Angeles call out Trump for being immoral or just an all around bad guy, we see that as the epitome of hypocrisy.  And hypocrisy doesn't sell; results do.  Then you throw in the perception that the same people screaming BLOODY MURDER(!) give the overwhelming smell of entitled brats who don't like someone even thinking different than them, let alone being put into positions of power that they believe, deeeeeep in their souls, are "rightfully" theirs, then you might start to understand his appeal.

Or something like that....🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

10 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Well, in Medicine/Physiology, it has recognized some noteworthy discoveries: Fleming for penicillin; Banting and Best for insulin; Watson and Crick for DNA. It has also made some big mistakes: Montagna for HIV, when Robert Gallo actually did the heavy lifting. 

The Peace Prize? Obama receiving it was on about the same order of magnitude of what the hell is this, as draping the Freedom Medal around Rush Limbaugh's neck. 

So maybe you're right on this one, after all.

We’re not discussing either the Medal of Freedom or past, notable, Nobel Prize winners. We were discussing the recent politicalizing and demeaning of recent Nobel Prizes.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

2 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

We were discussing the recent politicalizing and demeaning of recent Nobel Prizes.

You've lost me.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

To elaborate - I am not saying there's a better alternative to Trump. I am NOT attacking Trump policies. That comment was really more about my understanding of America and Americans... 

 

9 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hi Rasmus.  I think I get you, but something I think you are missing is that the morals and values of one or all of those folks you got to know in the South are not what those same people give a shxt about when it comes to who is in Washington fighting for their interests, real or perceived.  

 

Watch this 90 second clip for a bit of one person's explanation about Trump's appeal:

https://twitter.com/ScottPresler/status/1228061103344713728

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Hotone said:

In 2000 when George W was elected, some my expatriate American colleagues (who have high intellect and global exposure) reacted with embarrassment.  It wasn't his policies but rather George W had the image of being not bright, consequently less presidential than Gore.  

Today, the expatriate Americans on this board are some of Trump's most ardent supporters.

Having lived around the world for some 30 years now, I can say without hesitation that one of the most irritating things a person can do when abroad is to bash their own country.  Any citizen of any country.  People who do that, in my opinion, are simply trying to get along with the locals and not be negatively perceived to be any of the "bad" that the locals feel about the President.  That's a sign of personal insecurity.  Fact is, unless it is for self preservation of my job or my living area, I don't care what people from other countries think about our President.  I did not say I don't care about the people in my host country; simply that their comments on any given President should not make one feel the need to join in.  Better to just shake your head and leave it at that.  Now, if the individual that is bashing their own country or President/Prime Minister, etc., personally feel that way, that's their business but they really shouldn't tar their own country by going on about it; it IS their home country and unless they want to emigrate, they ought not leave an impression that people back home share their views that their own country is bad or, especially, stupid.  Nobody should take the opinions of a few individual's that are visitors in their country to reflect the majority of the residents of the subject country.

But that's just my opinion.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

”But that's just my opinion.”

Dan, that was brilliant and a breath of fresh air! I thought maybe it was just me who go fed up by Yanks bashing the States simply in an effort to ‘fit in’ and find acceptance from the locals who, rightly or wrongly, have negative feeling regarding the US.

It is similar to teenagers responding to peer pressure.

As you say, if they truly dislike America, then they should consider immigrating elsewhere.

I have essentially lived outside the US since I was 24 years old, I’ll qualify for senior citizen status in a few months. My career was mostly responsible for this ‘absence’, but other issues came into play (other ‘career expats will read between the lines here) and then I got married in Malaysia. I have worked through 5 passports, each with additional leaves (when that was still possible). In a nutshell, I have seen alot of the world. There are plenty of nice places scattered around the planet, but, in my opinion, there is no place quite like the States for opportunity (if you are prepared to work for it) and personal freedoms.

I am looking forward to going back to Colorado this year....although the granola crowd is doing their best to ruin the place!

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

You've lost me.

“One of my best friends is an elderly man who won the Nobel Prize in economics through a unique equation.”

You made this comment earlier. Apparently you consider winning a Nobel Prize as a mark of exceptional intellect, in the past - it was. The Nobel has now become a popularity contest with political implications...hence the reference to Obama.

How can you compare the Medal of Freedom, a US thing, to the international Nobel award?

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

6 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

I think you are missing is that the morals and values of one or all of those folks you got to know in the South are not what those same people give a shxt about when it comes to who is in Washington fighting for their interests, real or perceived. 

Actually I know that at least some of them care about these values even in their politicians. Some if not most, hold their nose because there is no good alternative. And this is kind of my point - why do Americans not demand more from their politicians? I can understand why somebody votes for Trump, but I cannot understand why so many including on this forum treat him as the 2nd coming. 

(In fairness same can be said about many Europeans)

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

33 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Actually I know that at least some of them care about these values even in their politicians. Some if not most, hold their nose because there is no good alternative. And this is kind of my point - why do Americans not demand more from their politicians? I can understand why somebody votes for Trump, but I cannot understand why so many including on this forum treat him as the 2nd coming. 

(In fairness same can be said about many Europeans)

Well, as with all politicians anywhere, the guy/gal you listened to in the campaign may not be the same person who ends up in the office. How many politicians seem to forget their campaign promises once elected?

Are you saying that American’s expect less from their politicians than say, Europe? I disagree.

Trump MAY be viewed differently than other recent Presidents as he is actually trying to follow through on his campaign promises...but the Democrats have tried to obstruct him since day one. He has still managed to do a pretty damn good job!

Trump was elected, in part, because he was a businessman and not a career politician.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

30 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Actually I know that at least some of them care about these values even in their politicians. Some if not most, hold their nose because there is no good alternative. And this is kind of my point - why do Americans not demand more from their politicians? I can understand why somebody votes for Trump, but I cannot understand why so many including on this forum treat him as the 2nd coming. 

(In fairness same can be said about many Europeans)

Fair enough.  But I know tons of people back home that make heartfelt, ernest shows of caring about these values in their politicians.  But that's all it is, a show among peers; few will take action to go against the man/woman fighting for things they value.  On your point about demanding more from their politicians - I don't know.  Laziness and lack of choices?  Could be.

I don't think any of us around here regard Donald J. Trump as the second coming.  I think we see him as a man with nothing to lose (the man's wealthy and 73 years old), with big balls, who is willing to go fight the good fight and maybe make a legacy for himself in the process.  He's kind of like Rodney Dangerfield: "No respect, I tell ya, no respect at all."  And I think he'd like to go out with some, backed by middle America and in the face of New York, Washington and LA.  Imagine, any businessperson goes to Washington to make a name/legacy for themselves fixing things.  There is SO MUCH of the proverbial low-hanging fruit, it's not even funny!  We like that, a lot, and we like throwing it all in the face of the same people he attacks each and every day on his twitter account while he takes a dump in the morning before work.  👍👍👍👍👍

Edited February 14, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Actually I know that at least some of them care about these values even in their politicians. Some if not most, hold their nose because there is no good alternative. And this is kind of my point - why do Americans not demand more from their politicians? I can understand why somebody votes for Trump, but I cannot understand why so many including on this forum treat him as the 2nd coming. 

(In fairness same can be said about many Europeans)

You might find this article, written by a lifelong Democrat, fairly eye opening, except below (although I suggest you actually read the entire article, it was refreshingly eye opening, even for me).

https://gen.medium.com/ive-been-a-democrat-for-20-years-here-s-what-i-experienced-at-trump-s-rally-in-new-hampshire-c69ddaaf6d07

After Attending a Trump Rally, I Realized Democrats Are Not Ready For 2020

 

Karlyn Borysenko

I’m an organizational psychologist and mindfulness expert, author of Zen Your Work, principal of Zen Workplace and Chief Science Officer at RallyBright.

I’ve been a Democrat for 20 years, but my experience made me realize just how out of touch my party is with the country at large

 

... You see, I was one of those Democrats who considered anyone who voted for Trump a racist. I thought they were horrible (yes, even deplorable) and worked very hard to eliminate their voices from my spaces by unfriending or blocking people who spoke about their support of him, however minor their comments. I watched a lot of MSNBC, was convinced that everything he had done was horrible, that he hated anyone who wasn’t a straight white man, and that he had no redeeming qualities.

But when I witnessed the amount of hate coming from the left in this small, niche knitting community, I started to question everything. I started making a proactive effort to break my echo chamber by listening to voices I thought I would disagree with. I wanted to understand their perspective, believing it would confirm that they were filled with hate for anyone who wasn’t like them.

That turned out not to be the case. The more voices outside the left that I listened to, the more I realized that these were not bad people. They were not racists, nazis, or white supremacists. We had differences of opinions on social and economic issues, but a difference of opinion does not make your opponent inherently evil. And they could justify their opinions using arguments, rather than the shouting and ranting I saw coming from my side of the aisle.  ...

 

... I started to question everything. How many stories had I been sold that weren’t true? What if my perception of the other side is wrong? How is it possible that half the country is overtly racist? Is it possible that Trump derangement syndrome is a real thing, and had I been suffering from it for the past three years?

And the biggest question of all was this: Did I hate Trump so much that I wanted to see my country fail just to spite him and everyone who voted for him?  ...

 

... So, I headed over an hour and a half before the doors were scheduled to open—which was four hours before Trump was set to take the stage—and the line already stretched a mile away from the entrance to the arena. As I waited, I chatted with the folks around me. And contrary to all the fears expressed, they were so nice. I was not harassed or intimidated, and I was never in fear of my safety even for a moment. These were average, everyday people. They were veterans, schoolteachers, and small business owners who had come from all over the place for the thrill of attending this rally. They were upbeat and excited. In chatting, I even let it slip that I was a Democrat. The reaction: “Good for you! Welcome!”

Once we got inside, the atmosphere was jubilant. It was more like attending a rock concert than a political rally. People were genuinely enjoying themselves. Some were even dancing to music being played over the loudspeakers. It was so different than any other political event I had ever attended. Even the energy around Barack Obama in 2008 didn’t feel like this.

I had attended an event with all the Democratic contenders just two days prior in exactly the same arena, and the contrast was stark. First, Trump completely filled the arena all the way up to the top. Even with every major Democratic candidate in attendance the other night, and the campaigns giving away free tickets, the Democrats did not do that. With Trump, every single person was unified around a singular goal. With the Democrats, the audience booed over candidates they didn’t like and got into literal shouting matches with each other. With Trump, there was a genuinely optimistic view of the future. With the Democrats, it was doom and gloom. With Trump, there was a genuine feeling of pride of being an American. With the Democrats, they emphasized that the country was a racist place from top to bottom.  ...

 

... Today, I voted in the New Hampshire Democratic Primary for Pete Buttigieg. I genuinely feel that Pete would be great for this country, and maybe he’ll have his opportunity in the future. But tomorrow, I’ll be changing my voter registration from Democrat to Independent and walking away from the party I’ve spent the past 20 years in to sit in the middle for a while. There are extremes in both parties that I am uncomfortable with, but I also fundamentally believe that most people on both sides are good, decent human beings who want the best for the country and have dramatic disagreements on how to get there. But until we start seeing each other as human beings, there will be no bridging the divide. I refuse to be a part of the divisiveness any longer. I refuse to hate people I don’t know simply because they choose to vote for someone else. If we’re going to heal the country, we have to start taking steps toward one another rather than away.

I think the Democrats have an ass-kicking coming to them in November, and I think most of them will be utterly shocked when it happens, because they’re existing in an echo chamber that is not reflective of the broader reality. I hope it’s a wake-up call that causes them to take a long look in the mirror and really ask themselves how they got here. Maybe then they’ll start listening. I tend to doubt it, but I can hope.

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

^^That, was a great article.  I wish I could express myself as well.

[Rob Plant + 2,600]

48 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

"Today, I voted in the New Hampshire Democratic Primary for Pete Buttigieg"

I started a thread about this guy a couple of weeks back as I had never heard of him until December 2019, but he seems to have great traction with the electorate and has bundles of cash to fight the campaign.

Personally I think if he can defeat Bernie and run against Trump he could well end up in the White House! He seems very credible to me and has youth on his side.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Rob Plant

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

As politically incorrect as it may sound, I do not believe that the US would ‘embrace’ a gay president at this point.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

19 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I started a thread about this guy a couple of weeks back as I had never heard of him until December 2019, but he seems to have great traction with the electorate and has bundles of cash to fight the campaign.

Personally I think if he can defeat Bernie and run against Trump he could well end up in the White House! He seems very credible to me and has youth on his side.

The Spooks Choice:  Coup plotters and CIA agents fill Pete Buttigieg's list of endorsers   (see attached PDF below)

Why are so many intelligence veterans throwing their weight behind a young Indiana mayor with such a thin foreign policy resume?

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6591451/Foreign-Policy-and-National-Security-Statement.pdf

Foreign Policy and National Security Statement of Endorsement for Pete Buttigieg

Foreign-Policy-and-National-Security-Statement.pdf