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20 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Are you describing China or the USA?  Those are threats to the West?  

You trying to sound like a moron? Where, exactly, has the US government built an island in the ocean? When exactly, on said (nonexistent) island did the US install weapons? When exactly did the US government claim sovereignty on seas hundreds of miles outside any sovereign territory as China has.

Oh, but you're not denying China is doing these things, you're claiming it's none of the West's business. No blood no foul? Who cares if China steals Vietnamese oil, while destroying the fish stocks all around the Philippines? As long as those being injured have an epicanthic fold it's all good no? Just among Asians? None of the West's business right? 

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1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

You trying to sound like a moron? Where, exactly, has the US government built an island in the ocean? When exactly, on said (nonexistent) island did the US install weapons? When exactly did the US government claim sovereignty on seas hundreds of miles outside any sovereign territory as China has.

Oh, but you're not denying China is doing these things, you're claiming it's none of the West's business. No blood no foul? Who cares if China steals Vietnamese oil, while destroying the fish stocks all around the Philippines? As long as those being injured have an epicanthic fold it's all good no? Just among Asians? None of the West's business right? 

Those are threats to the West?  Fish are threats to the West?  And you call me the idiot?   

Mostly, China is reclaiming lands taken by force by colonial powers long ago. Right or wrong, China can establish an historical tie dating 5000 years.  Contrast that to your president who gives and takes non-USA lands, such as the Golan Heights.  The USA has some God-given right for this? 

Now, just so we can be clear on who has built how many war bases and where, consider the map below.  You should note all US bases but Hawaii are on foreign soil. 

 

usa-military-bases.jpg

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1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

Are you describing China or the USA?  Maybe you should open your eyes and see the USA for what it really is.  Deep state?  small %?  inter-marriages?  taxation? who controls your money?  hell, your White House is plain nepotism.  I have shown you state laws that violate your constitution, yet you seemingly accept. 

If you accept your govt, why you cannot accept similar in another country?  aye, there's the rub. 

 

 

Who says I accept it.

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18 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Who says I accept it.

For the same reasons you accuse me. 

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23 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Those are threats to the West?  Fish are threats to the West?  And you call me the idiot?   

Mostly, China is reclaiming lands taken by force by colonial powers long ago. Right or wrong, China can establish an historical tie dating 5000 years.  Contrast that to your president who gives and takes non-USA lands, such as the Golan Heights.  The USA has some God-given right for this? 

Now, just so we can be clear on who has built how many war bases and where, consider the map below.  You should note all US bases but Hawaii are on foreign soil. 

 

usa-military-bases.jpg

Give it up frankfurter! You are really reaching now...

Yes, there are many US bases on foreign soul...because those foreign countries either asked for them or invited the US to build them. This is much different than creating artificial islands, in international waters, and arming them.

The US has NEVER controlled or ‘owned’ the Golan Heights! Which orifice did you pull this little nugget of knowledge out of?

Okay, we all get it that you despise the US and Americans. This is not the issue. The issue is your incessant line of nonsense.

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8 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Mostly, China is reclaiming lands taken by force by colonial powers long ago. Right or wrong, China can establish an historical tie dating 5000 years.  Contrast that to your president who gives and takes non-USA lands, such as the Golan Heights.  The USA has some God-given right for this? 

The unified China we think of today didn't exist at any point in the last 5000 years and has no historical claims. If you take history as a guide, than the claim to uphold is the division of China into about half a dozen major separate states. So the historical right of succession is for all the historical sovereigns of China to split back up to their birthrights as independent states. 

800px-EN-WarringStatesAll260BCE.jpg

Or next consolidation period of the Three Kingdoms 

350px-Topographical_3K_gif.gif

Or we can go further forward

Sixteen_Kingdoms_402_AD.jpg

History shows a unified China as a temporary state following conquest by one of the main states or an external force such as the Mongols. 

Northern_and_Southern_Dynasties_560_CE.p

Perhaps the Han Chinese should be pushed back from Southern China again to their historic territories North of the Yangtze?

Five_Dynasties_Ten_Kingdoms_923_CE.png

Perhaps Shenzhen and Guangdong should split off with HK to form a new country along the Pearls river?

The several states that make up China of today can just as well be separate ones. They certainly should be by all historical precedence.  It is a "unified China" that is an unnatural construct with no history. Just like the German states and empires before Bismark. Language is not enough to form a country.

800px-China_-_Southern_Song_Dynasty-en.s

This is the regional political map of 1142.

Then we have China sort of united by the Mongol occupation and the Mongol Yuan dynasty 

That followed by a smaller Ming Dynasty without the Western and Norther states, and the last Qing that saw a united and expanded China reversing the Mongol occupation to control Mongolia and other territories the Ming lost. 

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A summary in a timeline of maps

China_Dynasties.gif

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33 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Give it up frankfurter! You are really reaching now...

Yes, there are many US bases on foreign soul...because those foreign countries either asked for them or invited the US to build them. This is much different than creating artificial islands, in international waters, and arming them.

The US has NEVER controlled or ‘owned’ the Golan Heights! Which orifice did you pull this little nugget of knowledge out of?

Okay, we all get it that you despise the US and Americans. This is not the issue. The issue is your incessant line of nonsense.

Korea was never a combatant in WW2.  It was occupied by Japan.  The US invaded Korea, split the country, and has remained ever since.  The US was never invited, just the opposite.

Japan was defeated and the US planted many bases.  The US is there upon terms of surrender, not invitation.  In fact, Okinawans have consistently requested the removal of US forces. 

Afghanistan was invaded. The US forces there are not invited, just the opposite.

Vietnam was invaded. 

Iraq was invaded, not invited. 

need I continue the list? 

Besides, the map shows clearly who threatens whom. 

I shall give up when you do.

 

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(edited)

We can look at the US as successor to the old European empires, that granted independence to the colonies. And retained military bases to keep it that way.

Dutch and Portuguese colonies

Dutch_and_Portuguese_in_Asia_c_1665.png

 

 520px-French_Empire_1919-1939.png

 

British Empire

1920px-The_British_Empire.png

1920px-SpanishEmpire1790.svg.png

 

Spanish Empire at 1790 above

Japanese Empire 1942 

250px-Japanese_Empire_(orthographic_proj

And the German Empire 1914

German_colonial.PNG

Edited by 0R0
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11 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Korea was never a combatant in WW2.  It was occupied by Japan.  The US invaded Korea, split the country, and has remained ever since.  The US was never invited, just the opposite.

Japan was defeated and the US planted many bases.  The US is there upon terms of surrender, not invitation.  In fact, Okinawans have consistently requested the removal of US forces. 

Afghanistan was invaded. The US forces there are not invited, just the opposite.

Vietnam was invaded. 

Iraq was invaded, not invited. 

need I continue the list? 

Besides, the map shows clearly who threatens whom. 

I shall give up when you do.

 

The map shows how the US displaced the old colonial powers and left behind military forces to guard the newly independent countries the US sponsored. That includes China being let go by Japan. 

You seem to deliberately ignore the history that made that map you are posting. Makes you the same junk propagandist standing history from the myopic perspective of the CCP gazing in infinite fascination at their own navel.

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30 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The map shows how the US displaced the old colonial powers and left behind military forces to guard the newly independent countries the US sponsored. That includes China being let go by Japan. 

You seem to deliberately ignore the history that made that map you are posting. Makes you the same junk propagandist standing history from the myopic perspective of the CCP gazing in infinite fascination at their own navel.

True. The maps show how the USA supplanted the British, French, Spanish, Japanese empires.  These are not ignored. Combining my map with yours, we see the means by which the USA continues its empire.  

You seem somehow to condone the subjugation of people and ignore the basic human right for self-determination. Makes you the same xenophobic propagandist we see in the western media. 

 

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Just now, frankfurter said:

True. The maps show how the USA supplanted the British, French, Spanish, Japanese empires.  These are not ignored. Combining my map with yours, we see the means by which the USA continues its empire.  

You seem somehow to condone the subjugation of people and ignore the basic human right for self-determination. Makes you the same xenophobic propagandist we see in the western media. 

 

You read it upside down.

After 5 centuries of Empire, the US is the dis-imperial force that broke them down and released the countries to independence from colonial oppression. The basic fact is that China as do all of the former colonies of the pre WWII powers, owe their independence to the US. The US at first kept those military posts to prevent the empires from re-establishing their control, which they tried. E.g. British and French in Suez 1956. And to prevent Soviet and Chinese expansion of communism, which is where they joined the French in Viet Nam, If Ho Chi Minn didn't go communist his country would have been actually independent long before and with American support. Then the US provided trade protection, particularly for oil for its allies and trade with itself, including all of China's trade.

You are losing the plot. Go back to school and study facts rather than CCP propaganda. The great century of humiliation was the simple fact that China was liberated and got its independence due to American and Australian forces that pushed Japan's colonial forces out. Like De Gaulle, you can't forgive the US for providing your independence. Get over it. 

 

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(edited)

2 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Those are threats to the West?  Fish are threats to the West?  And you call me the idiot?   

Mostly, China is reclaiming lands taken by force by colonial powers long ago. Right or wrong, China can establish an historical tie dating 5000 years.  Contrast that to your president who gives and takes non-USA lands, such as the Golan Heights.  The USA has some God-given right for this? 

Now, just so we can be clear on who has built how many war bases and where, consider the map below.  You should note all US bases but Hawaii are on foreign soil. 

 

usa-military-bases.jpg

The US pays cold hard cash for rental of the lands where those bases are. Places like the Philippines, who demanded the US abandon Clark Airbase got their wish, then came begging for us to return. The Chinese on the other hand aren't invited anywhere, with the possible exception of Iran, and look at the wonderful disease the Chinese were happy to share with their friends there. Even Iran isn't stupid enough to allow the Chinese to have an army on their soil. The US has abandoned bases all over the world and as @0R0 aptly demonstrated above has done more to deliver freedom to other countries than every other power combined. Meanwhile Pax Americana is a real thing. Even the tremendous trade advantage China has enjoyed these past decades since they bribed Clinton is only possible because the US, from all those bases you're complaining about, keeps the sea lanes clear for those container ships to freely ply their trade. 

As for fish, China has destroyed their entire country, now it gets to create ecological havoc on the rest of the world, starting in Asia? 

Edited by Ward Smith
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45 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

You read it upside down.

After 5 centuries of Empire, the US is the dis-imperial force that broke them down and released the countries to independence from colonial oppression. The basic fact is that China as do all of the former colonies of the pre WWII powers, owe their independence to the US. The US at first kept those military posts to prevent the empires from re-establishing their control, which they tried. E.g. British and French in Suez 1956. And to prevent Soviet and Chinese expansion of communism, which is where they joined the French in Viet Nam, If Ho Chi Minn didn't go communist his country would have been actually independent long before and with American support. Then the US provided trade protection, particularly for oil for its allies and trade with itself, including all of China's trade.

You are losing the plot. Go back to school and study facts rather than CCP propaganda. The great century of humiliation was the simple fact that China was liberated and got its independence due to American and Australian forces that pushed Japan's colonial forces out. Like De Gaulle, you can't forgive the US for providing your independence. Get over it. 

 

Suggest you study history.  You are delusional and woefully ignorant.   America provided China's independence?  that's rich.  Show me any battle sight anywhere in China where US troops were on the ground fighting against Japan for and on behalf of China.  US troops pushed Japan troops out of China?  prove this please.  

The Century of Humiliation includes the Boxer Rebellion.  The rebellion was brutally squashed by the Eight Nation Alliance, which included the USA.  The USA fought AGAINST Imperial China, not for and on behalf. 

China achieved her independence by herself, by the Chinese people alone, at perhaps the greatest cost in history, despite the efforts of all colonial powers to prevent this. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

The US pays cold hard cash for rental of the lands where those bases are. Places like the Philippines, who demanded the US abandon Clarke Airbase got their wish, then came begging for us to return. The Chinese on the other hand aren't invited anywhere, with the possible exception of Iran, and look at the wonderful disease the Chinese were happy to share with their friends there. Even Iran isn't stupid enough to allow the Chinese to have an army on their soil. The US has abandoned bases all over the world and as @0R0 aptly demonstrated above has done more to deliver freedom to other countries than every other power combined. Meanwhile Pax Americana is a real thing. Even the tremendous trade advantage China has enjoyed these past decades since they bribed Clinton is only possible because the US, from all those bases you're complaining about, keeps the sea lanes clear for those container ships to freely ply their trade. 

of course, you are entitled to your opinions, delusional though they may be.  

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(edited)

54 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Suggest you study history.  You are delusional and woefully ignorant.   America provided China's independence?  that's rich.  Show me any battle sight anywhere in China where US troops were on the ground fighting against Japan for and on behalf of China.  US troops pushed Japan troops out of China?  prove this please.  

The Century of Humiliation includes the Boxer Rebellion.  The rebellion was brutally squashed by the Eight Nation Alliance, which included the USA.  The USA fought AGAINST Imperial China, not for and on behalf. 

China achieved her independence by herself, by the Chinese people alone, at perhaps the greatest cost in history, despite the efforts of all colonial powers to prevent this. 

 

US aid and bombing of Japan and eliciting its surrender brought China's independence. It own fighting didn't result in getting the Japanese out.

Yes, US forces were involved in fighting against Chinese communist and other forces in the 1920s. But aligned with China during WWII. Airlifting military supplies after the "Burma Road" was captured by Japan. 

China was awarded its official recognition in its current border in the 1943 Cairo Conference and got independence as a Big Four Allied power in 1945 with a permanent seat on the UN Security council. But throughout WWII China was occupied by Japan, and did not dislodge the Japanese on its own.  They simply left after the general surrender. Leaving the Kwomintang and the Communists and Soviets to fight it out. China didn't win the battle. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

1280px-Dadao_map_1939.svg.png

Edited by 0R0
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30 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

of course, you are entitled to your opinions, delusional though they may be.  

Irony.

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30 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

The Century of Humiliation includes the Boxer Rebellion.  The rebellion was brutally squashed by the Eight Nation Alliance, which included the USA.  The USA fought AGAINST Imperial China, not for and on behalf. 

 

The US didn't want an insular Imperial China but an open republic. Which it sort of got after 1912.

Is it a legitimate war of a coalition of 8 imperial powers against China? Not by today's standards. But by the standards of a world divided into empires in the late 19th  century, it was just as legitimate as any of the many other wars fought for control of resources and markets. It was made easier by the willingness of so many Chinese war lords to put their allegiance with Japan or any of the Western powers rather than with the Emperor or with the republic of 1912.

 

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@frankfurterThat subjugation you speak of is precisely what the US ended. 

US presence assures these countries against subjugation by any of their neighbors or other powers. Particularly the very belligerent China trying to control their governments and suck the life out of their economies. 

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Polarization of opinions here is large.

Both Americans and Chinese do not see how aggresive, dominating both empires were in the past and are at present.

South China Sea behaviour of China is a  very moderated, probably because China still needs time to develop and feels pressure of current hegemon US. In the future I am sure they will not be so nice or restrained. I am sure whole South China Sea and East China Sea will be Chinese lake, just like whole Northern Atlantic and Northern Pacific from California to Guam is US lake.

That is how things have always been between small and large countries.

It is very frustrating to me, that most people here seem or maybe pretend that they do not comprehend these simple facts.

I think that Japan will retain most Of Ryuku archipelago but only with Chinese bases there.

I think there would be qui pro quo in the distant future: i mean past 2035.

China will leave its Venezuelan or Cuban future military bases and US will leave Eastern Asia and Eastern Pacific.

Judging from historical precedents I think it will get stabilized with symmetrical spheres of single US and Chinese military presence 2000 maybe 3000 miles from major human settlements of both nations.

And Please do not tell me that some third  countries may want it otherwise like request US or Chinese military presence. Just simple power theory with 2 players dominating the globe, No 3rd country can say anything. Anybody that does not agree and have anything meaningful will be invaded by one of hegemons with or without help of the other.

 

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On 3/3/2020 at 5:15 PM, Douglas Buckland said:

Sad, but true.

At the end of the day, the Chinese, like the Venezuelans, need to figure out if they desire a change of government. If so, THEY need to make it happen.

There is a massive difference between the generations in China. The old folk may be happy with the CCP, but younger ones are absolutely seething.

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With duopoly like current Airbus and Boeing or future US and China the situation is stable provided that natural resources are not scarce.

Both countries are probably too rich to go to war. They should co-operate in hydrocarbons grab when China will be relatively stronger.

Major problem I see is the US thirst for hydrocarbons, nearly 5 tons of oil equivalent per capita is unsustainable.

I do not know enough but how would US economy react for constant BOTH crude oil AND natural gas at 200 US dollars per barrel ?

Could it adjust if subject to such prices in 20-25 years timeframe ?

Today  crude oil is at 50 and natural gas at 11 in crude oil barrels equivalent it is unsustainable.

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9 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Polarization of opinions here is large.

Both Americans and Chinese do not see how aggresive, dominating both empires were in the past and are at present.

South China Sea behaviour of China is a  very moderated, probably because China still needs time to develop and feels pressure of current hegemon US. In the future I am sure they will not be so nice or restrained. I am sure whole South China Sea and East China Sea will be Chinese lake, just like whole Northern Atlantic and Northern Pacific from California to Guam is US lake.

That is how things have always been between small and large countries.

It is very frustrating to me, that most people here seem or maybe pretend that they do not comprehend these simple facts.

I think that Japan will retain most Of Ryuku archipelago but only with Chinese bases there.

I think there would be qui pro quo in the distant future: i mean past 2035.

China will leave its Venezuelan or Cuban future military bases and US will leave Eastern Asia and Eastern Pacific.

Judging from historical precedents I think it will get stabilized with symmetrical spheres of single US and Chinese military presence 2000 maybe 3000 miles from major human settlements of both nations.

And Please do not tell me that some third  countries may want it otherwise like request US or Chinese military presence. Just simple power theory with 2 players dominating the globe, No 3rd country can say anything. Anybody that does not agree and have anything meaningful will be invaded by one of hegemons with or without help of the other.

 

I don't expect China to be a pole in a bipolar world. It is acting like a French empire. It is not acting like a future Hegemon. It is also not capable of being one. The economics of it don't play out. 

It will never happen.

China under the CCP can not develop into a high margin economy that can fund Hegemony. All it can do under that regime is squash other country's economic margins down, not something they will allow any longer. The CCP is the enemy of China's economic future and its potential place as a pole in a bipolar or multipolar world. Its contradictions of internal isolation and great economic "openness" are also not sustainable. Neither is the contradiction of a friendly supplier of arms and population surveillance and control and builder of infrastructure, vs. its ruthless exploitation of resources, financial debt traps and repossession  of national trophies that they built for their "friends". They need to choose between control and cooperation. So far, cooperation seems to fade quickly in each binary relationship and turns sour as soon as China senses it can exercise control. There are only so many times you can do that. 

I think the threats China exercises against EU and the UK will ring hollow after the coronavirus debacle and their insane methods to contain it. In 5 years, China will be bypassed by the global supply chains and its lack of consumer market growth will remove its last attraction. It will only have its cheap rare earth minerals as a competitive advantage. Its labor is no longer cheap, and its finances are weak. As their boomer generation retires, the savings cash flow  will dwindle and their financial system will have to live off of the profits from its investments. Those profits have been out for most of the last decade of profitless growth. There is no reason to believe they will magically appear without major restructuring of China's SOEs, meaning 20% unemployment. So a financial restructuring is not going to be enough, the actual operations will have to be made efficient.  

Their current attempt to curtail credit expansion via EMU style "bail ins" will create the same problem that the EU banking system has. Nobody can keep large deposits and crucial cash for corporate liquidity in the banking system. The original bail in program for Baoshang bank was a 30% haircut for corporate and financial depositors. They cut it to a 10% penalty when many companies reported they would not survive the loss. The experience has everyone in business scrambling for a solution. In Europe it was to hold sovereign bonds that the ECB would buy or repo, and reliance on the Eurodollar system. There may be a run for China sovereign credit, but that is not enough, using the Eurodollar system for liquidity for large China depositors might work, but is difficult to implement unless the company is a China multinational,because SAFE imposes capital controls, and will not let companies take their liquidity into the Eurodollar system (i.e. out of China). Perhaps they will use gold among other things, perhaps oil reserves. But there are not going to be any more large private depositors in the China banking system. The regulators there have made the banks "radioactive".None of that is conducive to China's continued development. 

At this point, China can't feed itself, can't power itself, and has proved itself unreliable. The climb up the value chain CCP style just eliminates the value in the chain. So will not produce a substantial growth in incomes for China. Not the makings of a superpower.

 

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4 hours ago, 0R0 said:

We can look at the US as successor to the old European empires, that granted independence to the colonies. And retained military bases to keep it that way.

Dutch and Portuguese colonies

Dutch_and_Portuguese_in_Asia_c_1665.png

 

 520px-French_Empire_1919-1939.png

 

British Empire

1920px-The_British_Empire.png

1920px-SpanishEmpire1790.svg.png

 

Spanish Empire at 1790 above

Japanese Empire 1942 

250px-Japanese_Empire_(orthographic_proj

And the German Empire 1914

German_colonial.PNG

Clearly the British Empire was by far the best!

The sun never set on the British Empire 😊

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3 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Suggest you study history.  You are delusional and woefully ignorant.   America provided China's independence?  that's rich.  Show me any battle sight anywhere in China where US troops were on the ground fighting against Japan for and on behalf of China.  US troops pushed Japan troops out of China?  prove this please.  

The Century of Humiliation includes the Boxer Rebellion.  The rebellion was brutally squashed by the Eight Nation Alliance, which included the USA.  The USA fought AGAINST Imperial China, not for and on behalf. 

China achieved her independence by herself, by the Chinese people alone, at perhaps the greatest cost in history, despite the efforts of all colonial powers to prevent this. 

 

Research the Second World War and the American Volunteer Group (aka Flying Tigers). Just for your own edification...no need to respond with your asinine rhetoric.

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