Analysis into the Iran Outbreak

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Ron latest statement

@Trump echoes a sentiment he expressed a week ago. "We need to keep calm." But adds, the level of contagion has been "incredible." Some states though reporting severe lack of tests kits- Atlanta reportedly has 50 a day. Population of 486,000.

This suggests the 0.018% death rate is a nonsense!

The US is basically admitting it isnt testing and therefore any reported death rates cannot hold any water.

7% of those tested are testing positive, extrapolated on the US population is approx. 23 million!

 

Please see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-020-0156-0

[Andrew Neopalimy + 14]

19 часов назад Роб Плант сказал:

Если вы работаете с 0,5% смертностью в соответствии с С.Корея, то США должны ожидать гибкости примерно в 1,5 миллиона человек. и сильным.

Вероятность того, что он получит тестирование Covid-19 из-за отсутствия, не может сравниться с отметкой в 1 миллион.

Члены семьи должны быть в безопасности.

Не паникуйте, ваш вирус не китайский, не итальянский ... но новая, более слабая модификация. Через два месяца вирус повсеместно идет на убыль.
И, пожалуйста, не дайте мне цифр - по SARS-2 нет правильной статистики, кроме Китая и России! _ - 0,5 - 1,0 - 2,0% - никто не знает.
Мы говорим: «Цыплята осенью считаются».

«В новой статье, опубликованной на сайте открытых данных SSRN, исследователи обнаружили, что во всех городах, где наблюдаются значительные вспышки COVID-19, очень похожий зимний климат со средней температурой от 41 до 52 градусов по Фаренгейту, со средним уровнем влажности от 47 до 79 процентов с узким распределением восток-запад вдоль той же 30-50 северной широты. Это включает Ухань, Китай, Южную Корею, Японию, Иран, Северную Италию, Сиэтл и Северную Калифорнию. Это также может означать увеличение неприятностей для Середины. -Атлантические штаты и - по мере повышения температуры - Новая Англия ... » https://www.umaryland.edu/news/archived-news/march-2020/researchers-predict-potential-spread-and-seasonality-for-covid-19-.php?fbclid=IwAR2LO9cHWEtRoZyYMaJDKW_ageK6ZKaBj8yXWo5QA7Io88otw8bZ0quppD8

Edited March 19, 2020 by Andrew Neopalimy

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/12/2020 at 9:25 AM, Geoff Guenther said:

Agreed that triage is the path needed. It absolutely is in Africa, but will have spread more slowly because of fewer planes, classrooms, etc. Iran also has a very young population, and has been hit extremely hard. Unfortunately, you don't know that it's a problem until 3 weeks later when infected people have gotten sick and are having trouble breathing.

There is no good outcome to any of this pandemic. For the elderly and infirm it is life-threatening. For the oil guys it's a loss of lifestyle. For the enviros this could set back environmental progress by years. And just like you say, without globalism we can't deal with sporatic famines around the globe.

It depends on what you need by globalism. Is it bottom up cooperation or just governments and the elites running the world. Free and fair trade is all that is needed. Famines and plagues are dealt with by free access to those suffering. In some countries the leaders will not allow free distribution of food or safety for medicine and medical aid. In fact that is the biggest problem faced. Often supplies are diverted to government directors illegally. We recently had that happen in Puerto Rico by Democrats!

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

“Douglas, I hope you stay sane in the meantime.”

That is making the assumption that I was sane BEFORE the lockdown!😂

It is getting worse here now with the cops checking people on the street. If you are not out to get medicine or food you get fined.

Oh well, another 13 days to go. Hope my Oreo cookie stash is sufficient...

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

12 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Ron latest statement

@Trump echoes a sentiment he expressed a week ago. "We need to keep calm." But adds, the level of contagion has been "incredible." Some states though reporting severe lack of tests kits- Atlanta reportedly has 50 a day. Population of 486,000.

This suggests the 0.018% death rate is a nonsense!

The US is basically admitting it isnt testing and therefore any reported death rates cannot hold any water.

7% of those tested are testing positive, extrapolated on the US population is approx. 23 million!

 

America still has less deaths than Germany which has about one fourth of our population. We have a tiny percentage of what Western and Southern Europe combined have. They equal our population. You seem to be very anti-American to me. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

 

For testing positive if what the US said yesterday is correct at 7% then yes if you extrapolate this, however it is on the proviso you test everyone which you won’t obviously.

of those 7% only a tiny percentage will die maybe 1 million over a year or 18 months

 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

11 hours ago, ronwagn said:

 

You are lying or mistaken about that being MY statement. Please be more careful in your attributions!

The logical way to look at damage is what percentage survive and how many have lasting damage after treatment. Anything else is just detail. Testing is just testing, it doesn't cure anyone but it may prevent some contagion. 

I am looking forward to seeing how the U.S.A. does against everyone else. The best thing we have done so far is closing our borders early, that credit all goes to President Trump. Europe failed to follow his lead and criticised him for it. Now they have followed his lead. 

Ron I haven’t said this is your statement, maybe I wasn’t clear because I typed my reply in a rush. Where I put “Ron latest statement” I meant from the White House and it was for your information. My apologies if it didn't come across like that, you should know by now I would not even attempt to do such a thing.

please re read before calling me a liar though it’s NOT appreciated!

Edited March 19, 2020 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

6 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I am not talking about equipment or technology or even trained personnel but about the true availability of quality treatment on demand, not just when the government says you can show up for treatment. Often the delays are serious and cost lives or severe discomfort and permanent health losses. 

Already, I am reading that triage will be used in Europe and that elderly will need to stay home and possibly die. That is what happens when you let government run your health care. Triage is a good and logical plan for mass casualty situations. I am very grateful that I do not have to be dependent on government health care. If Europeans remain happy with the status quo that will say a lot. If Americans are happy with our systems that will say a lot also. 

America has wealthy people from all over the world come here for top medical care. Many probably go to Europe also. I have worked in our top military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany. That is where we airlift our wounded warriors from the Middle East. Germany has a complicated medial system but at least it allows for private payers and private insurance. 

 

Ron we In the UK also have independent healthcare and hospitals that are in the private sector , I presumed you were aware of this. My bad!

yes we call our NHS the International health service as people mainly from Commonwealth countries fly in for an operation and then fly home when recovered, and it’s all free for them!

thats how fu*ked up our system is

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

America still has less deaths than Germany which has about one fourth of our population. We have a tiny percentage of what Western and Southern Europe combined have. They equal our population. You seem to be very anti-American to me. 

Not at all

i am pro US actually

the fact you haven’t been testing Which was admitted yesterday by your own government has skewed these figures to make it look like you are doing a load better than everyone else, this I just don’t believe, if you aren’t testing then you are burying your head in the sand and kidding yourselves.

this was my whole point at the start of our debate.

why is it that anyone on this site who dares to criticise anything about the US is anti USA and must be a member of the CCP it’s ludicrous 

im all for national pride but let’s get some perspective please.

most Americans have been very very vocal on criticising the EU, China, Poland etc those who live in these places don’t start saying oh you’re anti us because your criticising us

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

For testing positive if what the US said yesterday is correct at 7% then yes if you extrapolate this, however it is on the proviso you test everyone which you won’t obviously.

of those 7% only a tiny percentage will die maybe 1 million over a year or 18 months

 

And from what I understand, 82% of cases are “mild”. Plus the issue of false positives.

Entities/organizations seem to be pushing their own agendas and nobody is presenting hard numbers.

I’m in lockdown in Kuala Lumpur. To date I do not know anyone who has been infected or tested! A buddy of mine, and his wife, arrived in KL from Australia an hour and a half before the lockdown began and were not screened at the airport. On the other hand, an old colleague arrived from London the day the lockdown began and was turned back to London....he has a proper visa and has resided here for 20 years!

This reeks of hysteria and knee-jerk reactions.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

The original discussion on this thread was that neither the US or UK administrations were taking this virus seriously. This week, both of them have woken up to the fact that this is actually a crisis. Both were late in waking up. Yes, it will cost lives, particularly in the UK because the infection rate is much higher. 

We're past that now and looking at the next phases. Douglas is on lockdown, so will be spending even more time on our board. But more widely:

* Italy will pass China in the number of COVID-19 deaths today.

* China announced that all new COVID 19 cases were from outside the country. 

* Iran's Khameni had canceled his Persian New Year speech for the very first time. He's 81 and several of his aides have been infected. Otherwise, the police are not forcing people to stay indoors, so celebrations are continuing to spread infections.

* Canada has already gone on lockdown. This should be interesting for the US to watch as Canada has done about the same number of tests as all of the US, so has a better handle on its problem.

[REAL Green + 65]

Lets not forget the negative bulge of the economy.  We too often focus on the positive bulge of the health care system.  This virus is not going away.  It will continue to infect albeit hopefully in a manageable way.  What may not be managed well is a popping of the global bubble of debt and asset pricing.  Real things are not being produced.  We can print money and jawbone confidence all day long but reality will be managing that too.  Below is a JPMorgan forecast from over on ZH.  It tries to put lipstick on this drop in economic activity but it is hard because of all the what-ifs.  I think it is possible we can find a stability level for global economic production but IMHO we are in a new normal of much lower activity that is here to stay.  I hope we can all get along with the party being crashed.

 

 “JPMorgan Now Expects A Global Depression In The Second Quarter”

https://tinyurl.com/sv6mbcg     zero hedge

 

“In a separate note by JPM's Bruce Kasman, has also taken a flamethrower to his global economic forecasts, and the bank's head of economic policy now anticipates Europe to implode an unprecedented 22%, the UK to crater by a depressionary and with the US plunging 14%, he sees the global economy ex China contracting by a whopping -13.7%. In short, JPM now expects no less than a global depression in the second quarter. This will follow a Q1 quarter in which China is expected to collapse by -40.8%, which however will somehow surge by 57.4% in the second quarter… JPMorgan's summary:  "If a normalization in activity from depressed levels takes hold midyear alongside building policy stimulus, the depth of the current downturn can be seen as a springboard for a strong snapback in growth. However, there is a significant risk that the virus outbreak persists and activity remains restricted for a longer time. In this environment, risks rise that the depth of the initial shock unleashes negative forces that magnify the hit to activity into 2H20. Notably, firms that had been hovering on the margins of viability pre-crisis may not have sufficient equity to justify even a subsidized extension of credit and may close. The longer the duration of the interruption to activity, the deeper into the population of firms likely closures will occur, and the greater the feedback into consumer incomes and expectations… In short, the world is facing an assured economic depression in Q2, and the only question is whether this depression persists into the second half and 2021 or reverses in Q3. The answer will depend on a combination of "price to perfection" events all turning out just as hoped for. Which, in a world of record political polarization, ascendant nationalism, and a torn social fabric, is recipe for not only disappointment but also disaster.”

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

7 minutes ago, REAL Green said:

Lets not forget the negative bulge of the economy.  We too often focus on the positive bulge of the health care system.  This virus is not going away.  It will continue to infect albeit hopefully in a manageable way.  What may not be managed well is a popping of the global bubble of debt and asset pricing.  Real things are not being produced.  We can print money and jawbone confidence all day long but reality will be managing that too.  Below is a JPMorgan forecast from over on ZH.  It tries to put lipstick on this drop in economic activity but it is hard because of all the what-ifs.  I think it is possible we can find a stability level for global economic production but IMHO we are in a new normal of much lower activity that is here to stay.  I hope we can all get along with the party being crashed.

 

 “JPMorgan Now Expects A Global Depression In The Second Quarter”

https://tinyurl.com/sv6mbcg     zero hedge

 

“In a separate note by JPM's Bruce Kasman, has also taken a flamethrower to his global economic forecasts, and the bank's head of economic policy now anticipates Europe to implode an unprecedented 22%, the UK to crater by a depressionary and with the US plunging 14%, he sees the global economy ex China contracting by a whopping -13.7%. In short, JPM now expects no less than a global depression in the second quarter. This will follow a Q1 quarter in which China is expected to collapse by -40.8%, which however will somehow surge by 57.4% in the second quarter… JPMorgan's summary:  "If a normalization in activity from depressed levels takes hold midyear alongside building policy stimulus, the depth of the current downturn can be seen as a springboard for a strong snapback in growth. However, there is a significant risk that the virus outbreak persists and activity remains restricted for a longer time. In this environment, risks rise that the depth of the initial shock unleashes negative forces that magnify the hit to activity into 2H20. Notably, firms that had been hovering on the margins of viability pre-crisis may not have sufficient equity to justify even a subsidized extension of credit and may close. The longer the duration of the interruption to activity, the deeper into the population of firms likely closures will occur, and the greater the feedback into consumer incomes and expectations… In short, the world is facing an assured economic depression in Q2, and the only question is whether this depression persists into the second half and 2021 or reverses in Q3. The answer will depend on a combination of "price to perfection" events all turning out just as hoped for. Which, in a world of record political polarization, ascendant nationalism, and a torn social fabric, is recipe for not only disappointment but also disaster.”

I agree economically in the short term its going to be horrendous.

Expect unemployment to go through the roof.

However China are now almost totally back to work, factories are operating as normal 4 months post outbreak. This gives us a lot of hope.

I think if the West can match this its not all doom and gloom. For those companies that are strong and ride this out they will mop up the market share of their competitors that have gone bust. Its all about navigating through this and positioning your business to take advantage when the crisis is largely behind us.

 "in a world of record political polarization, ascendant nationalism, and a torn social fabric, is recipe for not only disappointment but also disaster.”

I just dont buy into this negativity, generally people and businesses are more resilient than given credit for. For most they will do whatever it takes to survive and long term prosper.

I am praying not too many die from Covid-19 and the remaining population develops a degree of immunity and the whole thing becomes another SARS, remembered and lessons learned from it, but largely another flu like epidemic that we overcame.

The media are the scaremongerers in all this and are not helping whatsoever.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And from what I understand, 82% of cases are “mild”. Plus the issue of false positives.

Entities/organizations seem to be pushing their own agendas and nobody is presenting hard numbers.

I’m in lockdown in Kuala Lumpur. To date I do not know anyone who has been infected or tested! A buddy of mine, and his wife, arrived in KL from Australia an hour and a half before the lockdown began and were not screened at the airport. On the other hand, an old colleague arrived from London the day the lockdown began and was turned back to London....he has a proper visa and has resided here for 20 years!

This reeks of hysteria and knee-jerk reactions.

Douglas absolutely mate, if you are fit and well nothing really to worry about, other than spreading it to those who arent.

Regarding numbers, do you really know how many die from influenza or SARS or MERS in the USA each year. Sure there may be numbers published but many of these cases will have a different cause of death on a death certificate.

Information from government sources is frankly crap at present

We were told 25000 test were being performed in the UK. However the total number of tests they then told us had only gone up by 6000! They cant even get basic maths right.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

21 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas absolutely mate, if you are fit and well nothing really to worry about, other than spreading it to those who arent.

Regarding numbers, do you really know how many die from influenza or SARS or MERS in the USA each year. Sure there may be numbers published but many of these cases will have a different cause of death on a death certificate.

Information from government sources is frankly crap at present

We were told 25000 test were being performed in the UK. However the total number of tests they then told us had only gone up by 6000! They cant even get basic maths right.

This is why Americans should be looking to Canada for data. Canada has been aggressive and consistent in its testing, so the data can be relied on more.  In the UK we still need to do some sort of Italy/German guesswork because we stopped testing anyone other than football players.

The other countries that have done a great job on testing also had a strong plan in place to shut down their epidemics.  For the rest of us, though, we're probably looking at 4 weeks of isolation (2 x the incubation time) to get in front of it again.

[REAL Green + 65]

"Douglas absolutely mate, if you are fit and well nothing really to worry about, other than spreading it to those who arent."

 

....That is if the hospital is not full when you have a critical accident or maybe a unknown condition that comes out of the blue.  This is now a multi-spectrum health and economic risk situation.  The idea that the virus is not dangerous to the 80% is not a proper way to look at this if the other dimensions of the pandemic are considered.  It is likely all countries will be infected adversely and more reinfection in countries that have a handle on the outbreak like China.  Social distancing is difficult to do when you are making things or doing services.  Vaccines will not happen overnight even if they find one that works.  This still comes down to managing two mirroring bulges one being a bulge up and the other down.  Some kind of balance will be required with both bulges.  At the moment neither are contained in my opinion although we have good guidance on managing the healthcare bulge if people take this issue seriously.  We can't just let people die either because the fact is younger people are getting sick too and some of these people are critical skill people who keep the system going.  Back of the envelop calculation is 10% of the population are critical skill people keeping vital systems and networks operating.  

[Ali Faryad 0]

On 3/10/2020 at 3:23 PM, Geoff Guenther said:

Italy is a week behind Iran in the epidemic cycle and has now locked down the entire country. The US and UK are a week behind Italy.

While it's difficult to get accurate information out of Iran because of media blackouts and lack of testing, there are reports of overflowing hospitals with no masks, gloves, or oxygen and many doctors and nurses dying while trying to care for patients.

This article is a solid attempt at bias sampling to arrive at a reasonable estimate of the number of infections, placing the number at about 2 million.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/irans-coronavirus-problem-lot-worse-it-seems/607663/

 

why always trying to show Iran gloomy ? i'm here in Iran, 2 million is a joke.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas absolutely mate, if you are fit and well nothing really to worry about, other than spreading it to those who arent.

Regarding numbers, do you really know how many die from influenza or SARS or MERS in the USA each year. Sure there may be numbers published but many of these cases will have a different cause of death on a death certificate.

Information from government sources is frankly crap at present

We were told 25000 test were being performed in the UK. However the total number of tests they then told us had only gone up by 6000! They cant even get basic maths right.

Okay, where can we get 330 million test kits?🤔

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

23 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay, where can we get 330 million test kits?🤔

Exactly!!

you wont so all numbers at this stage are meaningless.

My whole point to Ron earlier

[ronwagn + 6,290]

7 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Not at all

i am pro US actually

the fact you haven’t been testing Which was admitted yesterday by your own government has skewed these figures to make it look like you are doing a load better than everyone else, this I just don’t believe, if you aren’t testing then you are burying your head in the sand and kidding yourselves.

this was my whole point at the start of our debate.

why is it that anyone on this site who dares to criticise anything about the US is anti USA and must be a member of the CCP it’s ludicrous 

im all for national pride but let’s get some perspective please.

most Americans have been very very vocal on criticising the EU, China, Poland etc those who live in these places don’t start saying oh you’re anti us because your criticising us

I have never seen an American criticism of Poland. I was stationed in Germany for 26 months and am quite familiar with the great change in attitudes by a small majority of Germans which have forgotten how we helped them rebuild and kept the Russians from doing what they did in the Russian sector. I am glad to see the political changes going on there! I love Germany but have never had the pleasure of being in Poland. There is probably more German , Polish, and French, Italian, Spanish or any European, Irish, British, or Scotch blood in America than there is in Europe. I am largely Spanish and French.  

The European Union is not the people of Europe. It is a dictatorial artificial system that should be changed or dissolved. The individual nations can cooperate very well without it. Germany and France seem to run the whole show and Poland is not going along with their program. I am thankful for that. Merkel has been a disaster to Europe IMO. The AFD needs to have a strong voice in Germany and like minds elsewhere. The Greens have too large a voice right now. I am all for common sense environmentalism but they are actually a red socialist party. 

Social distancing is America's greatest advantage because of our spacious land.

President Trump just now overruled the bureaucracy and our testing kits will be used here rather than overseas. I did not realize that our own government was the main problem with the supply and that we were exporting tests not yet approved by the FDA's overly  zealous studies. Now we will have a better picture of how we compare to Europe and the rest of the world. It will take another couple of weeks, at least, to catch up. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Ron we In the UK also have independent healthcare and hospitals that are in the private sector , I presumed you were aware of this. My bad!

yes we call our NHS the International health service as people mainly from Commonwealth countries fly in for an operation and then fly home when recovered, and it’s all free for them!

thats how fu*ked up our system is

Thanks Rob, I assumed NIH stood for National Health Service, I am glad that you also allow private health care. Our Democrats have often insisted on a "single payer" system.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

5 hours ago, REAL Green said:

Lets not forget the negative bulge of the economy.  We too often focus on the positive bulge of the health care system.  This virus is not going away.  It will continue to infect albeit hopefully in a manageable way.  What may not be managed well is a popping of the global bubble of debt and asset pricing.  Real things are not being produced.  We can print money and jawbone confidence all day long but reality will be managing that too.  Below is a JPMorgan forecast from over on ZH.  It tries to put lipstick on this drop in economic activity but it is hard because of all the what-ifs.  I think it is possible we can find a stability level for global economic production but IMHO we are in a new normal of much lower activity that is here to stay.  I hope we can all get along with the party being crashed.

 

 “JPMorgan Now Expects A Global Depression In The Second Quarter”

https://tinyurl.com/sv6mbcg     zero hedge

 

“In a separate note by JPM's Bruce Kasman, has also taken a flamethrower to his global economic forecasts, and the bank's head of economic policy now anticipates Europe to implode an unprecedented 22%, the UK to crater by a depressionary and with the US plunging 14%, he sees the global economy ex China contracting by a whopping -13.7%. In short, JPM now expects no less than a global depression in the second quarter. This will follow a Q1 quarter in which China is expected to collapse by -40.8%, which however will somehow surge by 57.4% in the second quarter… JPMorgan's summary:  "If a normalization in activity from depressed levels takes hold midyear alongside building policy stimulus, the depth of the current downturn can be seen as a springboard for a strong snapback in growth. However, there is a significant risk that the virus outbreak persists and activity remains restricted for a longer time. In this environment, risks rise that the depth of the initial shock unleashes negative forces that magnify the hit to activity into 2H20. Notably, firms that had been hovering on the margins of viability pre-crisis may not have sufficient equity to justify even a subsidized extension of credit and may close. The longer the duration of the interruption to activity, the deeper into the population of firms likely closures will occur, and the greater the feedback into consumer incomes and expectations… In short, the world is facing an assured economic depression in Q2, and the only question is whether this depression persists into the second half and 2021 or reverses in Q3. The answer will depend on a combination of "price to perfection" events all turning out just as hoped for. Which, in a world of record political polarization, ascendant nationalism, and a torn social fabric, is recipe for not only disappointment but also disaster.”

On the other side it will be interesting to watch how much business China loses to other countries that replace some of its production. My goal is that we are never dependent on China as our only supply for anything unless their CCP leadership is done away with. They are our opponent in the world and continue to act that way. Bad behavior should never be rewarded, nor should lies and obfuscation of important facts like China did by initially hiding facts about the coronavirus. I don't think that JP Morgan is sufficiently considering permanent long term reduction of Chinese business. I hope I am correct. President Trump and the American business powers need to make it so!

On the bright side, I hope that people all over the developed world will reevaluate their lives and find a better balance in their lives with less materialism and greed, more emphasis on health and balance in their lives. Health includes components of biopsychosocial elements. Getting out of densely populated areas is one of my choices. 

Urban planners should be able to come up with many changes in the way that cities are laid out. Doors should be opened and closed with foot pedals where possible, and locks can be set up on bathroom doors that way. Sensors can replace toilet and urinal handles etc. etc. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by ronwagn
addition

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

23 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Thanks Rob, I assumed NIH stood for National Health Service, I am glad that you also allow private health care. Our Democrats have often insisted on a "single payer" system.

Yeah NHS is exactly that National Health Service, or its supposed to be.

In Europe if you get ill you get your credit card out first and then get treated, in the UK you never have to pay whether you have contributed to the system financially or not which is why it is so abused by people from other countries, hence the"international" Health Service

Im actually signed up with these through work

https://www.bupa.co.uk/

They have a good reputation and dozens of hospitals in the UK 😊

Edited March 19, 2020 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

11 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

On the other side it will be interesting to watch how much business China loses to other countries that replace some of its production. My goal is that we are never dependent on China as our only supply for anything unless their CCP leadership is done away with. They are our opponent in the world and continue to act that way. Bad behavior should never be rewarded, nor should lies and obfuscation of important facts like China did by initially hiding facts about the coronavirus. I don't think that JP Morgan is sufficiently considering permanent long term reduction of Chinese business. I hope I am correct. President Trump and the American business powers need to make it so!

Do you think a Democrat president would reverse all that Trump has done so far with trade with China? tariffs etc?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 minute ago, Rob Plant said:

Do you think a Democrat president would reverse all that Trump has done so far with trade with China? tariffs etc?

Biden has said that China is NOT a problem. His family has been virtually gifted millions in the form of business profits. It is common knowledge. Virtually no coverage from our fake media. Fox and Breitbart have covered it. A book by Peter Schweizer called Profiles in Corruption is the best source.