Poland closes all schools and kindergartens for 2 weeks. Children are the most efficient, stealth spreaders of coronavirus.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Stop everything right now

******Urgent News Flash******

Not content with being made fun of by Americans for needing a licence to own a spoon we now have this serious situation

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

12 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

We gave China a really hard time about their slowness to respond, but when they did respond it was like nothing we've ever seen before. I'd encourage everyone to listen to the system they created during SARS. It's absolutely incredible.

• When someone thinks they're infected, they don't go to the hospital, they go to an annex. Nobody in the hospital is contaminated.
• Their temperature is checked and they are given a hand-held CT scan that shows two slices of the lungs within 2 minutes.
• If the scan is shown something, they are swabbed immediately. They sit and wait for 3 hours while the onsite lab tests are done. They are not allowed to go home and infect their family.
• Someone comes along, suits them up, and has them do dancing, raising their arms, etc., because their scientists discovered that this helped clear their lungs and keep them healthy.

Now China's shutting down its temporary hospitals - the 2200 beds that it built in 12 days - because the infection rate has gone down so rapidly. They now have technology that we can only dream of and while their tactics may be unsavoury, they worked.

Here's an interview on the processes that China set up.  Sorry about the Maddow link, I promise she doesn't say much https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/how-a-country-serious-about-coronavirus-does-testing-and-quarantine-80595013902

That whole SARS process didn’t seem to work too well in the present crisis...

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

9 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

That whole SARS process didn’t seem to work too well in the present crisis...

Have you looked at the numbers? Yesterday China had 18 new confirmed cases and 14 deaths. The US had 414 new confirmed cases and 5 deaths. Italy had 2547 new cases and 252 deaths. That seems to confirm that the SARS process is working.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200314-sitrep-54-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=dcd46351_6

Italy is starting to turn away people over the age of 65 because of bed shortages. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html

Poland is doing the right thing.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Geoff Guenther
Added Italy info

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Poles, like every post-communist nation, do not trust authorities and media.

So if the authorities admit it's rather bad, then people suspect that the situation is totally tragic like in Italy and let everyone take care of their lives and health.

In connection with this I drive a lot by car I can tell you that the streets at least in Warsaw are empty.

The trending news on Twitter  in Poland is Fuck you should at home so people sit at home and watch movies on netflix

.One thing that I wish you in the West is a healthy skepticism to the media message of authorities and the MSM.

It is slowly changing, people no longer believe CNN or BBC like 30-40 years ago and question more.

 This is a healthy attitude in my opinion.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Tomasz

[Marcin2 + 726]

1 hour ago, Tomasz said:

Poles, like every post-communist nation, do not trust authorities and media.

So if the authorities admit it's rather bad, then people suspect that the situation is totally tragic like in Italy and let everyone take care of their lives and health.

In connection with this I drive a lot by car I can tell you that the streets at least in Warsaw are empty.

Yes, the city is empty, the shops were also empty yesterday evening. I used metro for the last time yesterday, it was also nearly empty. And all shops, also in shopping malls are closed apart from food/groceries, pharmacy, convenience stores.

People do not attend Sunday Mass, it is difficult for older folks, my father has not attended for the first time since military service in 1980s.

People (if they can) are in self-imposed quarantine, working from home office, no contacts apart from immediate family and some shopping every 2 days.

There is unfortunately, one potentially disastrous thing - people in Poland rarely wear masks. And every mask plus glasses/goggles significantly decreases the chance of being infected. There is not enough masks for public so state owned channels (and for 70% of people outside Warsaw and other major cities it is the main source of information) are peddling propaganda that masks do not help.

Saturday evening I was the only person in mask in a shopping mall.

I do not know enough about how the virus spreads, but in East Asia masks were instrumental in fight with epidemic.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

2 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Yes, the city is empty, the shops were also empty yesterday evening. I used metro for the last time yesterday, it was also nearly empty. And all shops, also in shopping malls are closed apart from food/groceries, pharmacy, convenience stores.

People do not attend Sunday Mass, it is difficult for older folks, my father has not attended for the first time since military service in 1980s.

People (if they can) are in self-imposed quarantine, working from home office, no contacts apart from immediate family and some shopping every 2 days.

There is unfortunately, one potentially disastrous thing - people in Poland rarely wear masks. And every mask plus glasses/goggles significantly decreases the chance of being infected. There is not enough masks for public so state owned channels (and for 70% of people outside Warsaw and other major cities it is the main source of information) are peddling propaganda that masks do not help.

Saturday evening I was the only person in mask in a shopping mall.

I do not know enough about how the virus spreads, but in East Asia masks were instrumental in fight with epidemic.

Yeh the idea masks don't help is exactly why no one trusts the government or media. Only a total idiot would believe that. Bare minimum it will stop you touching your face and mouth. I think this is why there is so much hysteria, the media are making it much worse but there are few cool heads to keep things in perspective and by that I do not mean chief medical officers talking about letting it run rampant so we all become immune.

I think Trump's last address was pretty spot on

[0R0 + 6,251]

33 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

Yeh the idea masks don't help is exactly why no one trusts the government or media. Only a total idiot would believe that. Bare minimum it will stop you touching your face and mouth. I think this is why there is so much hysteria, the media are making it much worse but there are few cool heads to keep things in perspective and by that I do not mean chief medical officers talking about letting it run rampant so we all become immune.

I think Trump's last address was pretty spot on

There is obviously a benefit in using a mask. The main issue where it is correct that it won't prevent you from being infected is that the mask doesn't block ALL of the fine mist carrying viruses. It allows some through so that you would still get the infection. What the mask does do is reduce the size of the initial exposure so that the chances of the virus overwhelming your immune response and making you very ill are lessened. But from an epidemiological point of view it is not a useful impediment for the spread on the side of healthy people. The mask is very useful in preventing the escape of viruses as the moisture in the mask traps most of them coming out of a carrier when they cough. 

If you are young or just plain healthy, the mask is pretty much decorative and prevents you from touching your mouth and nose. If you are ill or very old, then the mask is far from sufficient as any exposure to the virus will lead to disease, whether massive or small since your immune response is compromised. In that case,, you need a haz mat suit with gloves and goggles. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 3/12/2020 at 5:30 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

Well done! You’ve found the heathen! Is he Chinese?

All logic points to yes

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Yes, the city is empty, the shops were also empty yesterday evening. I used metro for the last time yesterday, it was also nearly empty. And all shops, also in shopping malls are closed apart from food/groceries, pharmacy, convenience stores.

People do not attend Sunday Mass, it is difficult for older folks, my father has not attended for the first time since military service in 1980s.

People (if they can) are in self-imposed quarantine, working from home office, no contacts apart from immediate family and some shopping every 2 days.

There is unfortunately, one potentially disastrous thing - people in Poland rarely wear masks. And every mask plus glasses/goggles significantly decreases the chance of being infected. There is not enough masks for public so state owned channels (and for 70% of people outside Warsaw and other major cities it is the main source of information) are peddling propaganda that masks do not help.

Saturday evening I was the only person in mask in a shopping mall.

I do not know enough about how the virus spreads, but in East Asia masks were instrumental in fight with epidemic.

When masks are limited they should be preferentially given to the sick, not the healthy.

[George8944 + 128]

Our Ohio Govenor DeWine closed all bars and resturants in the State effective tonight.   They realized we don't have enough hospital beds to handle the expected need.   We have just under 12 million people in the State and only 27,000 hosptal beds.   We would only need a 0.2% with serious infections before the system is swamped. The hope is to slow the spread of virus to give the very ill time to cycle in and out of the hospital.

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200315/coronavirus-governor-orders-ohio-bars-restaurants-to-shut-down

I'm waiting for the run on the banks.  

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Alberta, Canada just cancelled school and daycare indefinitely - like the rest of the school year.  "All students will receive a final grade and advance..."  University of Alberta switched to online lectures.

[Hotone + 412]

Posted on the FB page of an Australian doctor who apparently manages a group of 27500 doctors

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=502590283981747&id=276755156565262

She mentions that Italian medical system has collapsed and unable to cope with the number of serious cases. She further goes on to describe the situation in Australia, but you can read that on her FB page

Edited March 16, 2020 by Hotone

[George8944 + 128]

2 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The main issue where it is correct that it won't prevent you from being infected is that the mask doesn't block ALL of the fine mist carrying viruses.

I believe an N95 or N100 grade mask will filter out all viruses.   My wife is a health care professional and she believes for a normal person with no training, even these masks will be of little value.  As she points out, they will try to reuse it,  touch the outside (where the pathogens are) to adjust it on their face and then wipe their eyes or brush aside their hair, etc.   Many would probably remove it in their house and set it on the kitchen table instead of removing it with gloves, depositing it in a bag and then throw it into an outside trash contianer.

She's a germaphobe with training, so I really can't (don't) argue with her any more.  ( I never won any way! ) 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

12 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Have you looked at the numbers? Yesterday China had 18 new confirmed cases and 14 deaths. The US had 414 new confirmed cases and 5 deaths. Italy had 2547 new cases and 252 deaths. That seems to confirm that the SARS process is working.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200314-sitrep-54-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=dcd46351_6

Italy is starting to turn away people over the age of 65 because of bed shortages. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html

Poland is doing the right thing.

Okay, you win. Go hoard toilet paper and hand sanitizer...

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 minute ago, George8944 said:

I believe an N95 or N100 grade mask will filter out all viruses.   My wife is a health care professional and she believes for a normal person with no training, even these masks will be of little value.  As she points out, they will try to reuse it,  touch the outside (where the pathogens are) to adjust it on their face and then wipe their eyes or brush aside their hair, etc.   Many would probably remove it in their house and set it on the kitchen table instead of removing it with gloves, depositing it in a bag and then throw it into an outside trash contianer.

She's a germaphobe with training, so I really can't (don't) argue with her any more.  ( I never won any way! ) 

Yes, she seems to have the training. And I agree that the nigher grade masks are going to be more useful for the general public. But not effective because of untrained users. But you can blow dry the mask to kill the viruses, if you are careful you won't melt it.

[George8944 + 128]

Time for some self medication.   A bit of whiskey.   My new theory is if I have enough alcohol on my breadth and airways, the virus won't survive entering through my mouth or nose.   I'm not sure this is valid, but I'll keep trying to prove my theory.   Besides the stock market opens in  12 our so hours for me and I haven't decided what I want to do.  I need to get a game plan together.  So far my stock option plays on oil and industry companies has been kind to me. I'm not getting rich, but I am trading in the black...for now.

See ya'll tomorrow.

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, George8944 said:

Time for some self medication.   A bit of whiskey.   My new theory is if I have enough alcohol on my breadth and airways, the virus won't survive entering through my mouth or nose.   I'm not sure this is valid, but I'll keep trying to prove my theory.   Besides the stock market opens in  12 our so hours for me and I haven't decided what I want to do.  I need to get a game plan together.  So far my stock option plays on oil and industry companies has been kind to me. I'm not getting rich, but I am trading in the black...for now.

See ya'll tomorrow.

It is less fun, but nanometer scale colloidal silver is really effective for virus control taken internally or to spray/wipe your hands. And silver nitrate is good for disinfecting surfaces that you can't clean with bleach or alcohol. Colloidal silver is good for that too but very expensive. 

[George8944 + 128]

1 minute ago, 0R0 said:

But you can blow dry the mask to kill the viruses, if you are careful you won't melt

I will have to take your word for that.  My thought is some viral cells will intially go airborne and survive.  I don't have any masks so I'm doomed any way.  Hopefully, I will be around long enough for you to tell me how that's workig for you! 

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, George8944 said:

I will have to take your word for that.  My thought is some viral cells will intially go airborne and survive.  I don't have any masks so I'm doomed any way.  Hopefully, I will be around long enough for you to tell me how that's workig for you! 

You are supposed to do it in a ventilated area - your wife would know to do it right.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

“The US has led the west in every crisis for the last 80 years. For the most part the US has done a good job and that is why the west has been so stable for close toa century.”

 

And why is it that the US has had to lead the West in every crisis for the past 80 years? What were the other Western countries doing to help themselves during this time?

 

The US, and the American taxpayer, would love to see some other, any other, Western nation, take the lead in these international crisis situations and natural disasters.

 

I guess it is better that America try, and fail, than to simply do nothing...

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

“I believe an N95 or N100 grade mask will filter out all viruses. “

 

How are ANY of these masks effective if they do not seal off your airways? All the masks that I see people wearing loop over the ears and are loose around the perimeter of the mask. When you inhale, the air simply enters from the sides. More of a placebo than anything else.

[Marcin2 + 726]

About schools and teaching in times of plague.

Schools in Poland were actually not closed but since Monday moved into internet, distant learning mode.

Each teacher, each and every day is responsible for sending the detailed curriculum and scenario for every lesson normally conducted in class to parents of the child. They are supervised by headteachers, and supported in new technologies by school IT staff.

Parents/grandparents just follow the scenarios and children are learning the same way as at school.

Apart from this authorities and publishers of textbooks are providing web based materials.

Children will be normally graded for their performance while distant learning.

From the experience of this week I can tell it somehow seems to work. I do not know how it works in secondary and tertiary education (but I will certainly know cause my tenants are foreign students in IT management).

How it works in other countries ?

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Of course, I support quarantine, but Marcin should take into account that for Poland it will be the worst economic year for 2-3 decades.

In my opinion, for last couple of years we had extremely stupid economic policy during times of ecoomic boom. We spent a lot of money like mad on the 500plus program, we kept interest rates low, we aroused populism, we run anti-EU and pro-American policy like no other country in Europe.

This crisis I am afraid will hit the Polish economy very hard because the budget for today is already detached from reality and we fired out of all anti-crisis activities in times of prosperity.

We are at odds with all neighbors. We are in the state of the Cold War with Russia, the most powerful neighbor, so Russia responds to long-term anti-Russian propaganda and I watch Russian television with exactly the same anti-Polish propaganda.

One of our strengths was good relations with Germany and the fact that generally the Russians, despite all Polish Russophobia, generally had a very friendly attitude towards Poles. For years, the Russians have been working on it simply doing nothing but explaining to the Russians word for word the most bizarre racist articles from the Polish press on inosmi.ru

Even on the subject of the World Cup - an article from Germany a great tournament. The article in Great Britain Russia is what it is but the tournament was beautiful. An leading article from Poland from the largest newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza - finally, Russian women could have sex with pure Europeans, not dirty smelly Russians.

We have some totally sick visions of Polish power dictating the conditions to Russia and Germany at the same time.

Last time, such a sick sanation-style policy finally ended with the Ribentrop-Molotov Pact.

 

I may be anti-Polish but I am simply a lawyer. I know that my education abroad means nothing. I also see that we have been conducting suicide policy for several years. 30-40% of Poles see it more or less in the mind, but we can't do anything about it like Turkey can't do with crazy Erdogan.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Tomasz

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Just distance yourself from those damn Imperialistic Yanks and you’ll be fine...

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Only I really did not criticize America at any point.

America, of course, pursues imperial politics, but with all my anti-Americanism I think America does not conduct suicidal policy.

USA only  takes care of his interests hard and ruthlessly.

I really doesn't compare these two things, if only because the US has very efficient diplomacy and special services. I\

t is impossible in the case of Poland to simultaneously conduct anti-German and anti-Russian policy.