So. Who's for Universal Basic Income?

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 3/18/2020 at 6:40 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

Or it will be utilized to buy drugs, booze and hookers. Although these purchases ‘help the economy’, I do not think this contributes to the social fabric.

How would you possibly guarantee this money would be spent on “necessities”?

The idea behind food stamps I suppose 😆

Edited March 20, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, Boat said:

The government because of the virus is shutting work down. To help the economy from total collapse the government is trying in a small way to fill the lost wages hole to keep the economy afloat.

During the last crash over a trillion went out. You got links that show prostitution and drugs jumped a trillion during that time?

IIRC in 2008 the trillion went right into the pockets of the banks who caused the crisis in the first place. There was a measly $300-600 "tax rebate" that accomplished precisely nothing. No idea how it was spent, the attitude was there wasn't enough money there for "investment" and big screen TV's cost more than that back then, so yeah, hookers, booze and drugs probably took a good chunk. 

[SERWIN + 749]

On 3/18/2020 at 6:36 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

The whole idea of a universal basic income is ludicrous and smells of unicorn farts.

Don't forget about rainbow turds, it all smacks of Socialism to me... 

[SERWIN + 749]

And at the end of every good line of bull shit, do you know what you'll have? 

 

 

A pile of bull shit!!

[SERWIN + 749]

They would just take it back in taxes to keep the whole thing afloat, and we would have to listen to the whiners telling us they need to be given more, more, more. So starts the slow spiral of humanity, feelings so delicate that we would destroy all of us just to make a very few of us not feel pain and hardship? Sounds like bull shit to me, and looks like bull shit to me, smells like bull shit to me, so I will have to surmise that it is a bull shit idea..... We need to have some MAN classes, you can only feel sorry for those that have been truly afflicted. Most of the whiners have only ever afflicted themselves, yet we are all supposed to feel sorry for them. The world is hard, and definitely not fair. So man up, become a true adult and deal with your feelings, but don't let them turn you into a gibberish spouting snowflake, unless of course, you are willing to pony up to the bar with your wallet in hand ready to give all you have for those you feel so sorry for.....

[George8944 + 128]

On 3/17/2020 at 5:01 PM, Zhong Lu said:

1000 dollars for everyone per month!

Not to sound like a broken record, but first there is no such thing as free money.   In theory government money comes from tax payers (either current or future), so your question could be rephrased -  Who would be willing to pitch in to give everyone $1000 per month?   

Think about that.  In the US  we have 331 Million people and 155 Million people who work.  (I rounded.)   That's about a 2 to 1 ratio.  Would you workers be willing to contribute $2000/month to an income fund so that everyone, including yourself could get $1000/month?   Another way to consider this is for every working person to give $1000/month to one person who doesn't work. 

Personally, I would give my money to my wife. She doesn't work!  

 

 

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

9 hours ago, Boat said:

The government because of the virus is shutting work down. To help the economy from total collapse the government is trying in a small way to fill the lost wages hole to keep the economy afloat.

During the last crash over a trillion went out. You got links that show prostitution and drugs jumped a trillion during that time?

Well Boat, in most States it’s difficult to get a good read on profits garnered by illegal drugs or prostitution.

Keep in mind that this is not free ‘helicopter’ money....as always, it will get paid back one way or another.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 hours ago, SERWIN said:

And at the end of every good line of bull shit, do you know what you'll have? 

 

 

A pile of bull shit!!

I thought that you were going to say an arsehole!😂

[Zhong Lu + 845]

On 3/20/2020 at 7:56 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

The idea of giving money to anybody, no strings attached is mind boggling!

The central bank is already doing that.  Heck, Trump's already doing helicopter money.  Not a bad idea actually.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

12 hours ago, George8944 said:

Not to sound like a broken record, but first there is no such thing as free money.   In theory government money comes from tax payers (either current or future), so your question could be rephrased -  Who would be willing to pitch in to give everyone $1000 per month?   

Think about that.  In the US  we have 331 Million people and 155 Million people who work.  (I rounded.)   That's about a 2 to 1 ratio.  Would you workers be willing to contribute $2000/month to an income fund so that everyone, including yourself could get $1000/month?   Another way to consider this is for every working person to give $1000/month to one person who doesn't work. 

Personally, I would give my money to my wife. She doesn't work!  

 

 

 

Then where are the trillions of dollars the central banks are pumping into bonds coming from? 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 minute ago, Zhong Lu said:

We're already doing that.  

So doing it again, blatantly, is a good idea? When do you actually grow a set of balls snd at least try to stop the bleeding?

Holding to the status quo has gotten us exactly where we are.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Douglas Buckland

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Sure. Why not.  If bondholders and execs get free money, why not everyone else? 

Again, I don't understand why people find it ok for the central bank to pump trillions of dollars into who knows where, while refusing to countenance the possibility to give 1k to the average Joe, including you and me.  

It seems like the central banks are flush with money these days, what with a trillion here, a trillion there.  Don't see why I, you, us, can't see some of it.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[George8944 + 128]

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Then where are the trillions of dollars the central banks are pumping into bonds coming from? 

It comes from their keyboard.  They can create money simply by changing the values in their checking account.   Seriously,  it is that simple for them, not them.

After thought edit... this article may be helpful

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/081415/understanding-how-federal-reserve-creates-money.asp

About midway, you will find this sentence...

"Money creation doesn't have to be physical, either; the central bank can simply imagine up new dollar balances and credit them to other accounts."

Edited March 21, 2020 by George8944
adding more information

[George8944 + 128]

This article is on a related, but temporary give away.   I share it for conversation fodder.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/if-the-1-000-household-stimulus-check-is-in-the-mail-its-probably-already-too-late-51584721998?mod=hp_DAY_2

[George8944 + 128]

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Sure. Why not.  If bondholders and execs get free money, why not everyone else? 

Again, I don't understand why people find it ok for the central bank to pump trillions of dollars into who knows where, while refusing to countenance the possibility to give 1k to the average Joe, including you and me.  

It seems like the central banks are flush with money these days, what with a trillion here, a trillion there.  Don't see why I, you, us, can't see some of it.

Zhong -  Bond holders and execs don't get free money.  Where do you get this stuff?  Exec's may get undeserved compensation, but it is not free.  It comes out of the pockets of the shareholders (not bond holders.)

The general public is mostly ignorant to how currency and commerce really works.  That's why it is "ok".  They don't know better and we have been deluded into believing 2% inflation is acceptable.

Again, nothing is free.   I want you to google "helicoptor money".   What you are asking has been proposed.

You said,  "Don't see why I, you, us, can't see some of it."   First we do see some of it.  It's called a (mostly) stable economy.  It's called having a government spending money on social programs and military spending well beyond their means.  If we were taxed to keep these programs running in the black we would be giving our entire pay check to the government.   So you are benefiting.  

In the Judeo-Christian religeous heritage we have a word for what you are feeling.  It's called "covetousness".    It's the inordinate desire for the possessions of others.   Be grateful for what you have, not what other have.   Every January 1st,  I force myself to make a list of 100 things for which I'm grateful.  Sounds easy, but try it.   I guarentee the exercise will stretch your thinking.   If you have trouble completing the list, let me know and I post a few of mine to spark some thought.   We take far too  much for granted. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Tails I win, Heads you lose.  

In profitable years, do stock buy backs.  Raises shareholder value, which means more executive pay.

In lean years, and the company is going bankrupt because all of its money was spent on share buybacks (and shares are now tanking down like a rock), ask for a government bailout.  

Seems like a pretty effective strategy.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Here's another example:

Leverage like crazy.  You'll make a lot of money, and when things go wrong, get bailed out by the central bank because your leverage poses "systematic risk."   

If you think about it, neither of these behaviors are particularly responsible.  Drug dealers who spend their money on hookers and booze are more fiscally responsible.  At least they're not risking billions of dollars.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

I don't understand why people are fixated on "drug dealers" when these 'systematic risk' people are doing much more damage to the economy.  

Also, if they get bailed out for making irresponsible decisions, why can't I get paid, too? Seems kinda unfair.  If the central bank gives them billions of dollars for trading like a drunken hypersexed man on mephatimines, why not me? I deserve that money, too.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Also, anytime the government interferes in private markets, that's socialism right? So if the government is bailing out these private companies, traders, and banks for their bad financial decisions with trillions of dollars, then by definition that's socialism.

So, since we're already  living in a socialist society, what's wrong with me or you asking for an extra thousand a month? I'm only asking for 12000 dollars a year.  Heck, you get it, too.  In the meantime these people are asking for and getting hundreds of billions of dollars.  Seems unfair.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Its dumb and already being slipped into Canada.  Its going to ruin our country with debt. (In order to make the foolish stay afloat because noone wants to learn a lesson the hard way like the rest of time so let's just sink the ship so everyone has to help bail it out) carbon tax so those that dont drive get free money (90% of the pot is returned 10% stolen) . Child benefit 690$ per child to low income aka those who dont marry bar tenders servers. Ect. No benefit for hard workers who make a decent living. Then if you earn low enough you can write off your living expenses tax health care and get free hydro. .... so why work why not just be an unhealthy jerk with a few kids. Hard workers pay your hospital Bill's meds hydro kids education... it's all crap I tell ya. How about dont tax the crap out of me and my business and I'll take care of my family and donate to the needy at will. Make it tax beneficial in a real way to help it . Like x ammount to Canada hospital charity ONLY ran by the gov. And mabey one for mental illness and a shelter. None of this shows for kids that the CEO owns and buys his own company shoes ect. It's too late tho. Lol it's already here. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Rob Kramer
Hydro = electricity in Ontario.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

But our country is already ruined by debt.  Note the national debt of America.  Significantly higher then Canada's.  Note the collapsing markets because of the debt.  [No one knows how many have piled on too much leverage with debt, so to be safe everyone sells].

I mean, if the country's going into so much debt, why can't I see some of that government money? Doesn't seem fair.  Heck, Trump's already into helicopter money.  As I see it, that's a great idea.  Let's just take it one step further and make it a permanent monthly thing.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Sorry a little cranky today. Parents at risk of cov family mostly laid off and nothing to do.  Thanks China! I'd love the days when people would just work and trade goods and life was luck of the draw and crappy things happened and you just appreciated being alive . Now its stay inside because global travel wants to kill your family more than the left wingers want to brainwash you on tv! 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

8 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

But our country is already ruined by debt.  Note the national debt of America.  Significantly higher then Canada's.  Note the collapsing markets because of the debt.  [No one knows how many have piled on too much leverage with debt, so to be safe everyone sells].

I mean, if the country's going into so much debt, why can't I see some of that government money? Doesn't seem fair.  Heck, Trump's already into helicopter money.  As I see it, that's a great idea.  Let's just take it one step further and make it a permanent monthly thing.

The liberals added 300/m per kid ... have a feeling their gonna forget to remove it after like other taxes. .... slow socialism 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Well yes.  But so did Trump.  And Bush.  It's not like Republicans and "conservatives" have been any less socialist.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[George8944 + 128]

On 3/21/2020 at 5:12 PM, Zhong Lu said:

Tails I win, Heads you lose.  

In profitable years, do stock buy backs.  Raises shareholder value, which means more executive pay.

In lean years, and the company is going bankrupt because all of its money was spent on share buybacks (and shares are now tanking down like a rock), ask for a government bailout.  

Seems like a pretty effective strategy.  

Hey we mostly agree on something!   My only comment is buy backs benefit  (In the near term) not just the executives, but every share holder (individual, pension fund, mutual fund, etc.)   Much of our last serveral years of market rise has been due to stock buy backs.  You are so down on executives, but you don't see the log in your own eye. (sorry, another Judeo-Christian reference.)  If you have profited from the rising stock market, then you too have benefited from the buy backs in some way.

You once posted a topic,  "Does debt matter?"  I tried to expalin that it does. You will see now that even at very low or zero interest rates it does very much matter.  People still want to get paid back.  In this down turn, revenue will plumet and companies won't be able to make their debt payments. No more loans for them!  They should go bust and not be bailed out.   

I really oppose most bail outs.  A bailout for the most part is a reward for poor management. (Who will bail out the US Government?)  The government should make these loans secured with hard assets and not my wallet, just like other lenders would do.   As I said many times before, when these companies close their door, their assets will be scooped up at fire sales prices.  Many of the unemployed will get their jobs back. (Yes, possibly at lower wages, but that's another topic! ) 

I seem to challenge you a lot, but don't take it personal.  I truly enjoy exchanging ideas.  I have very few views that I hold so dear that I won't change when presented with a cogent arguement.

Be safe.   Be happy and don't worry.   Worry won't add a minute to your life. (ooops. I did it again.)