China Takes Axe To Alternative Energy Funding, Slashing Subsidies For Solar And Wind

[MrGreat + 7]

Electricity prices increased by:

51 percent in Germany during its expansion of solar and wind energy from 2006 to 2016;
24 percent in California during its solar energy build-out from 2011 to 2017;
over 100 percent in Denmark since 1995 when it began deploying renewables (mostly wind) in earnest.

What gives? If solar panels and wind turbines became so much cheaper, why did the price of electricity rise instead of decline?

[NickW + 2,714]

4 hours ago, MrGreat said:

Electricity prices increased by:

51 percent in Germany during its expansion of solar and wind energy from 2006 to 2016;
24 percent in California during its solar energy build-out from 2011 to 2017;
over 100 percent in Denmark since 1995 when it began deploying renewables (mostly wind) in earnest.

What gives? If solar panels and wind turbines became so much cheaper, why did the price of electricity rise instead of decline?

For clarity:

What was the change in price of fossil fuel sourced electricity over the same period?

How much of that change is due to value added taxes being applied to electricity? 

[REAL Green + 65]

A shale massacre was coming already.   What are the costs to Russia and KSA?  A huge cost to two nations that need strong oil markets.  Shale is an economic oil.  It can be started up quickly if needed although never with the growth that brought the US to near energy production and consumption parity.  Oil systems in Russia do not shut down well.  Real damage will be done to Russian and KSA with production if storage runs out.  Storage is rapidly filling up everywhere.  This glut will linger for years because the economic damage is taking the global economy to a lower level of economic activity and this is just the first step down with more to come as dominoes fall.  Oil production decline is part of the decline too so it is a negative converging force of the highest order globally.  Renewables likewise are going to get clobbered.  Anything global and large will get a haircut.  This was an event but the slow boil process has now just begun.  More thresholds will be breached and more damage spill out with many in unexpected places.  This is the nature of chaos on systems.

[SERWIN + 749]

12 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Trump was impeached. Look it up.

You are a complete idiot. The case that came from the house had no grounds, no evidence, and was dropped by the Senate. No impeachment...

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 minutes ago, SERWIN said:

You are a complete idiot. The case that came from the house had no grounds, no evidence, and was dropped by the Senate. No impeachment...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump

The impeachment happened; Look it up.

You must think OJ Simpson was innocent.

acquitted...

O.J. was ordered to pay $33.5 million; the list of things that trump has been court ordered to pay is pretty long

 

Bill Clinton was impeached for a silly blow job - not trying to manipulate elections...

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Enthalpic

[mad-trader + 25]

7 hours ago, MrGreat said:

Electricity prices increased by:

51 percent in Germany during its expansion of solar and wind energy from 2006 to 2016;
24 percent in California during its solar energy build-out from 2011 to 2017;
over 100 percent in Denmark since 1995 when it began deploying renewables (mostly wind) in earnest.

What gives? If solar panels and wind turbines became so much cheaper, why did the price of electricity rise instead of decline?

Those are both highly subsidized and TAXES and Per unit costs saw no less than 3x -- often more.     EU has taken the approach.. NO NUKE and Green AT ALL COST... THEN LIE when questioned how good.   Wind farms blades WEAR OUT.. nobody expected this and very costly .. Electric car REAL adotion is quite poor even with 50% paid for by gov   - why do I even talk to 30 yo green weenies.   Look up the total subsidies for california..  HATERS have it broken down..    I wonder if you want open borders, Welfare for all  and FREE money for Expensive education too.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

19 hours ago, neg_entropy said:

This is the beginning of the end of the Satanic cult of carbon. The Lord gave us the sun and Satan gave us fossil fuels. Dark, and buried deep below the light, oil has plagued the human race for a century. A century of blood, violence, pollution, and death. Now the end of it approaches but not without a final burst of chaos. The darkness fails, the Light prevails.

Welcome to the forum, neg_entropy.

Please feel free to voice your opinions, no need to beat around the bush and be shy.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

5 hours ago, NickW said:

For clarity:

What was the change in price of fossil fuel sourced electricity over the same period?

How much of that change is due to value added taxes being applied to electricity? 

VAT ... nice try.  All earlier before going "green"

 

3 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump

The impeachment happened; Look it up.

Bill Clinton was impeached for a silly blow job - not trying to manipulate elections...

Ah, why do you post nothing but lies? Or are you just this blatantly ignorant of what actually happened and believe the utter lying trash CBC?

Billy Bob was impeached for LYING to congress.  Blatantly lying.  So blatant we all now have the joke, "depends what the definition of "is" is".

Trump never got impeached as everything the dems claimed was true was a blatant lie set up by the dems and their sychophants and then destroyed by Democrats OWN MOUTHS in their own hearings, talk about slime trash. 

You sir are disgusting

Stick to local politics in Edmonton Sir, you might actually know something on the topic

Edited March 31, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

VAT ... nice try.  All earlier before going "green"

 

Ah, why do you post nothing but lies? Or are you just this blatantly ignorant of what actually happened and believe the utter lying trash CBC?

Billy Bob was impeached for LYING to congress.  Blatantly lying.  So blatant we all now have the joke, "depends what the definition of "is" is".

Trump never got impeached as everything the dems claimed was true was a blatant lie set up by the dems and their sychophants and then destroyed by Democrats OWN MOUTHS in their own hearings, talk about slime trash. 

You sir are disgusting

Stick to local politics in Edmonton Sir, you might actually know something on the topic

Ok if taxes were added before 'going green' I shall refine the question.

What was the change in price of fossil fuel derived electricity over the same period? 

[Boat + 1,323]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:12 PM, ronwagn said:

Supporting oil and natural gas is a very wise decision. They are the mainstays of the energy that we need. Wind and solar are toys by comparison. They have not proven to be competitive despite huge subsidies. That was at much higher prices for oil and natural gas which are now practically free compared to high prices for solar and wind. There will be a crash in those industries. Electric cars will be great toys for wealthy folks until they come up with competitive prices without subsidies. 

All we need to do is impose tariffs on all imported oil and gas from all nations aside from Canada. 

US producers are shutting down drilling rigs while Trump still allows imports that are not needed from foreign countries. This is not making America Great Again. The US should be using its own oil and supporting American refineries during these difficult times. No excuses, get-er-done.

[Boat + 1,323]

Need water? Kill coal.
 

https://coloradosun.com/2020/03/31/water-windfall-colorado-coal-plant-closures-water/

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

23 hours ago, Mattias Arnander said:

Demonstrate that fossils fuels without subsidy aren't competitive with renewables? Sorry I'm not an MIT proffessor. On the flipside, why should Renewables constantly prove to be profitable without subsidies?

If you make the claim that renewables constantly prove to be profitable without subsidy, you have to demonstrate why. You don't need to be an MIT professor to calculate the financial stats of renewables. From everything I've gathered, people who say that solar and wind are competitive without subsidy are blatantly dishonest. My state has gone too far with wind and solar subsidies, and the numbers are still horrible. For instance, I keep hearing that solar is only $1 per watt now. Interesting, because a very recent solar project in my state amounted to $2 per watt with an assload of subsidies in tow. It was a 100 MW installed capacity project that cost $180 M with all benefits considered. Utterly asinine. 

We're also not capable of going full EV, and if you calculate the cost of fuel made synthesized from renewables (at efficiencies far greater than reality mind you) the cost is ridiculous. 

 

23 hours ago, Mattias Arnander said:

National securitiy? Aren't US presidents constantly talking about the dangers on foreign oildependency? Well I guess you don't have to worry about that now with that fracking industry of yours

Not sure if you misunderstood me, because my point is exactly that. We subsidize fossil fuels because foreign oil dependency IS dangerous, not because fossil fuels aren't profitable. 

[MrGreat + 7]

The price of natural gas declined by 72 percent in the U.S. between 2009 and 2016 due to the fracking revolution. In Europe, natural gas prices dropped by a little less than half over the same period.

The price of nuclear and coal in those place during the same period was mostly flat.

Meanwhile,

• Between 2011 and 2018, former Governor Jerry Brown’s time in office, electricity prices rose nearly seven times more (27.9 percent) in California than they did in the rest of the country on average (4 percent). [Source: EIA, 2019]

• Expensive energy harms the poor in another way: by driving manufacturers out of California. From 2011 to 2018, California’s industrial electricity prices rose 32%, while the average price in the other 49 states fell one percent. [Source: US, EIA , Electricity Data Browser]

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

 

 

Ah, why do you post nothing but lies? Or are you just this blatantly ignorant of what actually happened and believe the utter lying trash CBC?

Billy Bob was impeached for LYING to congress.  Blatantly lying.  So blatant we all now have the joke, "depends what the definition of "is" is".

Trump never got impeached as everything the dems claimed was true was a blatant lie set up by the dems and their sychophants and then destroyed by Democrats OWN MOUTHS in their own hearings, talk about slime trash. 

You sir are disgusting

Stick to local politics in Edmonton Sir, you might actually know something on the topic

Bill and Donald were both impeached to an equal degree.

Either both were impeached (the truth) or neither were... if only Clinton was impeached in your mind then you have"alternative facts" syndrome.

Stay classy

V

Edited April 1, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Refman + 207]

On 3/31/2020 at 7:38 AM, SERWIN said:

You are a complete idiot. The case that came from the house had no grounds, no evidence, and was dropped by the Senate. No impeachment...

Doesn't change the fact that he was impeached by the House, even if the Senate did drop it

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 3/24/2020 at 4:53 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Norway already addressed this.  Charging stations now charge upto 80c/KwH..... $0.80c/kWH..... yea

Seriously? One estimate I saw in the Financial Times was that the cost of subsidies adds up to about half the price of the EV. One part of that is the road tolls which can be a substantial cost for regular commuters. EVs don't pay them. The petrol tax thing is just another subsidy. The Norwegian government has looked at cutting back on the enormous cost of the program but basically doesn't dare. Charging a reasonable, even a high price for power at the charging points is a start but you'll find that a lot of EVs are charged at home, so it won't mean much. The Norwegian government seems to have got themselves into a bind. 

[ALB999 + 4]

Elon Musk will be very happy with what is happening in China.   They have just extended the subsidies to electric vehicles for two years.

That will give them enough time to get the battery prices further down before the Chinese manufacturers break into the US market and take it over.

The US needs to change tack or its oil and car industries will both soon be dead

.

 

[Nick S 0]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:53 AM, markslawson said:

A tax break is not a subsidy; a subsidy is not a tax break.

It's Government support either way you look at it my friend.

[markslawson + 1,057]

1 hour ago, Nick S said:

It's Government support either way you look at it my friend.

Actually no - or at least by that logic, whenever you, as an individual, make a claim for a tax break in your annual tax return, for, say, any sort of expenses incurred in earning an income (costs of education, say, or cost of  hiring an accountant to sort out your statement - deductible in Australia at least), then the government is supporting you. That doesn't sound right to me and wouldn't to anyone else. In the US, as I understand it, mortgage repayments can be claimed on tax. If you make such a claim is the government supporting you? Of course it isn't. You are just trying to get back, or keep, some of your hard-earned. If you check the posts I pointed out that there are government agencies that track the level of assistance, or lack of it, to different industries. You may want to check those tables before writing about government assistance to mining.

 

[Mattias Arnander + 1]

On 3/31/2020 at 11:25 PM, KeyboardWarrior said:

Not sure if you misunderstood me, because my point is exactly that. We subsidize fossil fuels because foreign oil dependency IS dangerous, not because fossil fuels aren't profitable. 

That might very well be true. However, we don't subsidize renewables because of poor profitability, but because of (inter)national security, just like oil. You see, if we continue with business as usual, not only will we see the huge effects of climate effect but also enhanced geopolitical tensions, climate refugees etc. Huge, huge security issues. Just google the costs to society in terms of damage costs of hurricanes, fires etc. 100s of billions of dollars.

PS. The reason I'm not posting some home made "DIY renewable profitability spreadsheat" is because I DON'T THINK they ever where profitable, but MAYBE THEY WILL now as the industry have matured. And maybe that's why China are "slashing subsidies with 50%" just like the article states. Because they think the industry is now mature enough to stand on it's one. 

Since you brought it up maybe you should prove that fossils would be profitable without subsidies?? What was it, $ 5,4 trillion in 2016 according to IMF.  Don't forget to include historic subsidies, including damage costs in $ amounts to society!

If you're a climate effect denier, don't bother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina

Edited April 3, 2020 by Mattias Arnander
spelling

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

 

 

3 hours ago, Mattias Arnander said:

Since you brought it up maybe you should prove that fossils would be profitable without subsidies?? What was it, $ 5,4 trillion in 2016 according to IMF.  Don't forget to include historic subsidies, including damage costs in $ amounts to society!

I don't think you understand how this works. You're the one making claims about renewable profitability, and you're the one suggesting we should switch. You have the burden of proof, not me. 

I can demonstrate solar's failure to be profitable when weighed against natural gas or nuclear. I'm especially fond of demonstrating its failure in the chemical industry, when we start talking about energy figures to synthetically procure hydrogen from water and attempt to synthesize chemical commodities. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

3 hours ago, Mattias Arnander said:

If you're a climate effect denier, don't bother.

Ok, no problem.

[Jusin frank 0]

Traders war

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

9 hours ago, Mattias Arnander said:

That might very well be true. However, we don't subsidize renewables because of poor profitability, but because of (inter)national security, just like oil. You see, if we continue with business as usual, not only will we see the huge effects of climate effect but also enhanced geopolitical tensions, climate refugees etc. Huge, huge security issues. Just google the costs to society in terms of damage costs of hurricanes, fires etc. 100s of billions of dollars.

Mattius - you may regard the climate debate as settled but you're talking about the EFFECTS of climate change, which is an entirely different thing. The dramatic effects you point to simply aren't being borne out by existing trends. Sure you can point to various dire scenarios posted online but what is actually happening on the ground right now? And if any part of the trend can be attributed to climate a much larger part can be attributed to non-climate factors. Bush fires in California and Australia? get busy and reduce fuel through controlled burns in the off season. Improve fire breaks and ensure areas are cleared around towns. More storms? Improve building codes. What about damage in third world countries? Would wind energy save much in emissions and, if it did, would that make any difference at all, even if all countries adopted it? Nope, not if you look at the theory.. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Upside of the virus is that it has been excellent for air quality.