China Takes Axe To Alternative Energy Funding, Slashing Subsidies For Solar And Wind

[ronwagn + 6,290]

23 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-20/a-trump-texas-oil-deal-opens-the-door-to-a-green-new-deal?srnd=premium&sref=RzXyyOXY

I hit the paywall. Will not support liberal news unless I get an almost free deal. Now have NYT and LAT very cheap online. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

20 hours ago, George8944 said:

There are really two ways for governments to effect a social change like the move to renewable energy.  They can either subsidize or tax.  I would be more in favor of increasing taxes on fossil fuels over the next decade or so, than building an industry that needs constant handouts to live.   As things got more expensive due to the tax,  companies would naturally provide a lower cost solution on their own.

I'm glad to see the Chinese subsidies stop.  I own shares of the US company, First Solar.   They are also one of my customers.

Nothing against you for wanting solar but how do you think very low oil and gas prices will affect solar and wind growth for the foreseeable future? 

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

7 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Moving goalposts haha has trump ever stuck to anything he said?  Nonsense spewed? haha!

I love the oil industry for the money - but hate the pollution. I saw, and prosecuted, the direct damage for many years.

Great; just the what the worlds needs, another Lib lawyer cryin 'foul' over their hurt feelings...

[Keith boyd + 178]

Ev's not paying road tax is a subsidy. The tax on gas and diesel pays for the roads. It is essentially a mileage tax on roads. The bigger the vehicle the more fuel it uses the more tax you pay per mile. It's actually an incredibly efficient and fair way to collect road taxes. Except that EV's dont pay any road tax while using the roads. If everything switches over to electric who pays for the roads?

[markslawson + 1,058]

17 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

The pipeline will likely be close to 12.6 billion by the time it is built.... Huge gift

That's the value of the pipeline.. the government subsidies/tax breaks don't seem to add much at all then - as opposed to renewables which do little more than mess up the operation of the grid they are attached to while consuming many times the amount given to the pipeline in subsidies/tax breaks. I regret that it you who are peddling the BS. Anyway, that's about as far as the discussion can take us at the moment.. time to move on..

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 3/20/2020 at 7:18 AM, Enthalpic said:

Also bailing out the auto industry, airlines, etc. directly benefits the oil and gas industry.

Perhaps that is because they depend on oil....

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

20 hours ago, Prometheus1354 said:

Great; just the what the worlds needs, another Lib lawyer cryin 'foul' over their hurt feelings...

Not a lawyer - expert scientific witness.  Just chemistry reports for the most part.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Not a lawyer - expert scientific witness.  Just chemistry reports for the most part.

Well then in legalese;  I retract my previous remarks.  Congrats on NOT bein a Libyer...

[George8944 + 128]

On 3/20/2020 at 7:23 PM, markslawson said:

A tax break is not a subsidy; a subsidy is not a tax break.

I agree.  It's more like a gift.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 3/19/2020 at 5:57 AM, Enthalpic said:

Yes, low oil prices will hurt renewable energy growth; any subsidy spending that was going to renewables will go to bailing out the oil industry.

Will you "let the markets decide" if oil can be profitably mined in the US?  Doubtful - you will support oil bailouts, just not green initiatives.

P.S. trump is now socialist and was holding the wheel during the biggest global shitshow ever.

I always make sure to use high hydrocarbon prices when doing efficiency and finance comparisons between the two options. Spoiler: Oil and gas win consistently. Remember all of those ammonia calculations I did? I used gas at $3.00/mmBtu. The "wElL jUsT wAiT TILL oIL anD GaS aRE eXpEnSive" just doesn't do it for me. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

27 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

I always make sure to use high hydrocarbon prices when doing efficiency and finance comparisons between the two options. Spoiler: Oil and gas win consistently. Remember all of those ammonia calculations I did? I used gas at $3.00/mmBtu. The "wElL jUsT wAiT TILL oIL anD GaS aRE eXpEnSive" just doesn't do it for me. 

If there is any upside to this mess it is that gasoline is super cheap.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

25 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

If there is any upside to this mess it is that gasoline is super cheap.

Yea, and for me personally it's that I might jump in on budweiser shares while they're low. Has a 5% dividend too... will probably help to cover college expenses. I'll be able to relax knowing that I've got a probable dividend of $3000 each year IF the shares return to where they were. I'm not sure yet. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Yea, and for me personally it's that I might jump in on budweiser shares while they're low. Has a 5% dividend too... will probably help to cover college expenses. I'll be able to relax knowing that I've got a probable dividend of $3000 each year IF the shares return to where they were. I'm not sure yet. 

I love a good dividend....

Lots of good "deals" on equities if you have cash on hand, provided the world doesn't burn and they go back up.

 

 

[markslawson + 1,058]

20 hours ago, George8944 said:

I agree.  It's more like a gift.

The subsidy is the gift? If so, I agree.. The oil industry tax breaks by and large do not differ from those of the rest of industry. In Australia a government body called the Productivity Commission regularly publishes comparisons of assistance for different industries. Calculating the assistance can be a complicated matter. As can be seen from the latest trade assistance review car manufacturing still top those tables but as cars are no longer manufactured here, this must refer to what's left of the car part makers and wouldn't amount to much. Despite constant accusations from the greens that the mining industry gets subsidies, assistance levels for that industry are the lowest of them all. The LNG industry, huge in Australia, does not seem to be listed separately, but would not certainly not get much in the way of support. I don't have access to US figures but industry support for mining and oil would be low compared to other industries. If any doubters you know need further convincing, tell them the next time they fill up their cars they should work out how much of the money they pay goes in tax..

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 3/21/2020 at 7:33 PM, Keith boyd said:

Ev's not paying road tax is a subsidy. The tax on gas and diesel pays for the roads. It is essentially a mileage tax on roads. The bigger the vehicle the more fuel it uses the more tax you pay per mile. It's actually an incredibly efficient and fair way to collect road taxes. Except that EV's dont pay any road tax while using the roads. If everything switches over to electric who pays for the roads?

Norway already addressed this.  Charging stations now charge upto 80c/KwH..... $0.80c/kWH..... yea

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Renewable Energy Industry claims to reduce CO2 pollution (0.04% of the atmosphere, recyclable by trees) by pollution from the creating and disposing of lithium batteries on land, water, and including the air pollution problem we are trying to solve?  Maybe governments should fund any research for an efficient none pollution battery technology before apply it to replace oil and gas. The inevitable increase the quantity of  lithium battery is bad enough itself.  Shouldn't we plan more trees and  try to clean the ocean to shift the new equilibrium to less than 0.04%?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/23/2020 at 6:26 PM, markslawson said:

The subsidy is the gift? If so, I agree.. The oil industry tax breaks by and large do not differ from those of the rest of industry. In Australia a government body called the Productivity Commission regularly publishes comparisons of assistance for different industries. Calculating the assistance can be a complicated matter. As can be seen from the latest trade assistance review car manufacturing still top those tables but as cars are no longer manufactured here, this must refer to what's left of the car part makers and wouldn't amount to much. Despite constant accusations from the greens that the mining industry gets subsidies, assistance levels for that industry are the lowest of them all. The LNG industry, huge in Australia, does not seem to be listed separately, but would not certainly not get much in the way of support. I don't have access to US figures but industry support for mining and oil would be low compared to other industries. If any doubters you know need further convincing, tell them the next time they fill up their cars they should work out how much of the money they pay goes in tax..

This should help the figuring. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F0r9fe6qLLFgjK_zP8VDhEgAjyXkQTfszOT8Jtno514/edit

 

  Gasoline Prices

 

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/web_gas_taxes.php

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=10

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=327&t=10

 Fed.               18.40 

Illinois           62.80 

Macon Co.      7.75

Total tax       88.95 

Gasoline wholesale price 64.4   3/20/20                               

Markup for transport and retail margin 60.0

 

Subtotal    $1.53.35

Transportation plus retail gross profit

5o to 60 cents

So look for a price of 

                   $2.13.35 to $2.23.35 (Usually .99 at the end)

 

Total $2.19 ( Ten cents to fifty cents lower than the current price without discount from Kroger) depending on how much yous spend with them.

 

Kroger is $209.9 today without the discount. 

https://www.autoblog.com/62521-gas-prices/

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 3/24/2020 at 4:43 AM, Enthalpic said:

If there is any upside to this mess it is that gasoline is super cheap.

Yeah...but you can’t go anywhere!!!

[amoscarlen 0]

On 3/19/2020 at 9:12 PM, ronwagn said:

Supporting oil and natural gas is a very wise decision. They are the mainstays of the energy that we need. Wind and solar are toys by comparison. They have not proven to be competitive despite huge subsidies. That was at much higher prices for oil and natural gas which are now practically free compared to high prices for solar and wind. There will be a crash in those industries. Electric cars will be great toys for wealthy folks until they come up with competitive prices without subsidies. 

All we need to do is impose tariffs on all imported oil and gas from all nations aside from Canada. 

"They have not proven to be competitive..." where are you getting this information from? Please see this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy-costs-tumble/#1b193360e8ce and what are your thoughts on climate change?

Edited March 25, 2020 by amoscarlen

[ronwagn + 6,290]

7 hours ago, amoscarlen said:

"They have not proven to be competitive..." where are you getting this information from? Please see this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy-costs-tumble/#1b193360e8ce and what are your thoughts on climate change?

I am a proponent of natural gas use to replace coal and diesel. China uses as much coal as the rest of the world combined. It not only pollutes the air but also earth and water. Natural gas has proven to be the best fuel to reduce real air pollution and CO2. I am only secondarily concerned with CO2 and do not subscribe to the alarmism. I do favor planting as many trees as possible. My contention is that we have decades or centuries to gradually move away from low lying areas near the seashores if there is ever reason to do so. I do not believe any reports of solar or wind being competitive on their own. Such estimates are fallacious IMHO. Natural gas replacing coal has made America the most successful large nation in reducing air pollution. Furthermore I do not like the aesthetics of wind turbines and solar panels cluttering up beautiful scenery. 

Natural gas is now virtually free, its cost is primarily pipelines and pumping it to the desired location and it requires less processing than other fuels. It is far less expensive than when any natural gas plants were formerly built since it is primarily a byproduct of shale oil production which has made America the largest oil and gas producer in the world. It has been a boon to the American economy and air since it first started replacing coal decades ago.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/climate/coal-global-warming.html

Edited March 25, 2020 by ronwagn
reference

[RichieRich216 + 454]

So much for the Paris Treaty 😂 😂😂😂, Whe the rubber ( Oil Based ) hits the road fossil fuel is plentifully and less expensive! All you Greenies can go hug a tree......

[Mark Potochnik + 8]

Guess what? Renewables are getting so cheap no government funding needed.

[markslawson + 1,058]

19 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Fed.               18.40 

Illinois           62.80 

Macon Co.      7.75

Total tax       88.95 

Gasoline wholesale price 64.4   3/20/20                               

Markup for transport and retail margin 60.0

Taxes are more than the wholesale price of gas/petrol, before you get to all the other stuff.. that is amazing.. 

[markslawson + 1,058]

4 hours ago, Mark Potochnik said:

Guess what? Renewables are getting so cheap no government funding needed.

Sorry Mark but total nonsense. Renewables may be cheap on the surface and may do well on those levelised cost comparisons which greens are fond of quoting, but all the supposed advantages disappear when they are used as part of a grid which has to deliver power 24/7. This point has been made many times now. Activists have no counter except to repeat the same nonsense. However, if you're really into this point then fine, remove all subsidies - which includes mandated quotas for green electricity - and see what happens. You will be sorely disappointed with the results.  

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

6 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I am a proponent of natural gas use to replace coal and diesel.

I think, perhaps, that a better approach is to simply make diesel with the natural gas. That way we can conserve our power density. I really don't want a natural gas tractor unless it can totally match the performance of our current set without increasing capital cost.