Why Trump Is Right to Re-Open the Economy

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Well done idiots, CV-19 is still here, millions of jobs are not. What will it be like next week? lock the old and vulnerable away if you want, let normal people live and feed their families.

US jobless claims surge to record 3.3m in one week – live updates

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/03/26/markets-live-latest-coronavirus-news-pound-euro-ftse-100/

Edited March 26, 2020 by El Nikko

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

On 3/24/2020 at 8:55 PM, ronwagn said:

President Trump hopes to reopen the economy by Easter if possible. We now have treatments and plenty of equipment that can be used. We need to throw all our resources at the critically ill but most patients will recover on their own and without hospitalization. The aged need to stay home but the rest need to get back to work as soon as possible. Otherwise we will have more damage to our economy than it can take. One is as important as the other in keeping us all healthy physically, mentally, economically, and emotionally. 

The President is absolutely correct too want the country to resume normal operations in as expeditious a manner as safely possible. For those wetting their pants that he has stated this; Wal-Mart is having a sale on diapers & safety pins...  Not all areas of the country are adversely affected by Corona. Those that aren't shouldn't be penalized if you will; by the fact a few areas are. I also found it interesting that the areas with the highest concentrations of the disease are large metro area/regions. NYC, SF/LA & Seattle.  Areas where (LA is the exception due too its sheer size) people are packed in and stacked up like rats.  In China, the most severely affected areas are regions with large population centers. Not the rural regions.  Ditto for the US.  

Every time there has been a major medical issue arise, the media goes into over drive hyping up hysteria.  Then again, rarely do they ever actually do any investigation of a 'source or tip' too vet it. The more hysterical the better (i.e. If it Bleeds, it Leads)...

Now I'm not downplaying the seriousness of each of these events. I'm not. But the only one that has caused me real concern was/is: Ebola.  

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/25/2020 at 7:22 AM, wrs said:

How do we know social distancing works?  We can't say if it is or isn't working any faster than the virus gets weaker on it's own.  Prove that it has worked anywhere.  Remember A before B doesn't mean A caused B.  

Here is a perfect example of a key component of social distancing not working.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/586612/six-amazon-warehouses-have-coronavirus/

If everything has to be delivered and therefore touched and it's infected first, how does social distancing work?  Wiping everything down all the time is just ridiculous.  When I go to the store and pick fresh vegetables, how many others have touched them?  If you are really paranoid you can use a hydrogen peroxide and water solution to wash them but that's a lot of work.

It's inevitable that the virus will spread, that is what is scientific.  All the juju about social distancing is hocus pocus and not scientific because it's really not proving to help that much or do anything more than give govt more unearned authority and make people even stupider as they believe what they can't understand because they have been trained to all their lives.  Science is just another religion with it's own appeal to authority for enforcement.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/italy-may-set-heavier-fines-for-coronavirus-lockdown-violations/ar-BB11D4NI

It is inevitable that, at this point, there is no way to contain the virus but it is important to slow the rise and isolate the aged and infirm to protect them. Slowing the epidemic is very important. Hospitals can become quickly overwhelmed, as we have seen. We are learning this lesson the hard way. We have ignored the need for investment in emergency medical care during epidemics and other catastrophes. We need large amounts of supplies and medicines around the country. We are now using our armed forces to help out. That is a good thing, but might not be possible in time of war (God forbid). Americans spend far too much on many stupid things. We need to  spend more on emergency medical care, shelter, and food supplies. 

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

2 hours ago, El Nikko said:

Well done idiots, CV-19 is still here, millions of jobs are not. What will it be like next week? lock the old and vulnerable away if you want, let normal people live and feed their families.

US jobless claims surge to record 3.3m in one week – live updates

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/03/26/markets-live-latest-coronavirus-news-pound-euro-ftse-100/

Millions of "jobs" are doing nothing but depleting precious, dwindling resources while producing filler for landfills and garbage heaps. Humanity does not need dozens of models of cell phone, new one each six months, it does not need endless new cars, nor heaps of garbage that now form whole continents and islands in the sea. No. It's time to dismantle the obsolete dogma that mindless consumption and mindless production that enriches 1% of people while making the rest miserable is the objective of human existence. 

This crisis is an unique impulse and opportunity to try implementing the necessary changes, and slowing down the overheated global economy, because no matter how hard people like you are pushing their heads into the sand, the scientific data speak clearly - either human society changes the way it exploits their environments and abandons the nonsensical "Growth at all costs" paradigm, or climate change will wipe most of it out. 

Choosing to ignore the facts changes nothing. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Wednesday has been deadliest day in reported coronavirus deaths in US

(CNN)More than 200 deaths from Covid-19 were reported Wednesday in the United States -- a new high for fatalities recorded in a single day.

The dramatic spike brought the number of novel coronavirus deaths since the outbreak reached the United States in late January to at least 928. Sunday morning -- less than four days ago -- the nationwide total was 326 deaths, according to CNN data derived from state reports.
Officials reported 223 deaths Wednesday, an increase higher than any other day. Tuesday saw 164 reports. Experts have said numbers will rise dramatically as more tests are administered and analyzed.
Listen to Dr. Sanjay Gupta's podcast
At the White House coronavirus task force news conference, President Donald Trump said: "The more aggressively we commit to social distancing ... the more lives we can save."
More than 65,000 people in the United States have now had a positive test for the novel coronavirus.
Faced with many new cases, leaders make exceptions to rules
With the number of positive coronavirus tests increasing sharply each day, states and local communities are having to break or bend the rules to increase the resources to fight the deadly disease.
In Texas, for instance, the state will allow medical facilities that are awaiting their licenses or those that have closed in the past 36 months to come online.
"By waiving these rules, we can quickly bring many of these facilities online to help Texas communities maximize their hospital capacity and provide care to Texans in need," Gov. Greg Abbott said.

There have been almost 1,000 confirmed cases of coronavirus in Texas and 12 deaths.
Abbott said the hospitals coming online will be administered by medical centers that have licenses. One rule being temporarily waived is the need for a facility to have a fire marshal's report to get a license.
The measures put into effect by governments also include releasing people in jail early.
At least 200 detainees will be released by Wednesday night from jails across New York City if the people don't pose a threat to the public, Mayor Bill de Blasio said.
New Jersey Attorney General Gurbir Grewal told reporters Monday the state will initiate a process by which low-level offenders will be released from jail due to Covid-19 concerns.

--------------------

Health official: US doesn't have to become epicenter
There's still time to stop the United States from becoming the next epicenter of the coronavirus pandemic, a World Health Organization spokeswoman told CNN.
"The potential is there, but you've still got time to turn it around," WHO's Margaret Harris said.
Your coronavirus questions, answered
Though the number of cases and deaths continues to grow in the United States, it's possible to reverse the trajectory, she said.

"You've got the best public health brains in the world," Harris said. "You've got people who can harness technology brilliantly. You've got people who can really think out of the box."
The formula for success is testing people, finding each case, identifying people who have come into contact with those who have been infected, isolating those who are ill or who have been exposed and quarantining, she said.
"Finally, getting the people who are ill to treatment -- and when you do that, really, really protect your health workers," she said.
Harris previously said the United States had the potential to be the next epicenter based on the "very large acceleration" in its number of cases.

'We have overwhelmed our stocks'
California Gov. Gavin Newsom, who issued a stay-at-home order last week, said it's likely the measure will remain in place over the next two or three months.
"I think April for California would be sooner than any of the experts that I talked to would believe is possible," he said.

The state reported a teenager may have died from coronavirus Tuesday. While the Los Angeles County Public Health Department said there may be another explanation, the teen could be the first juvenile to die from Covid-19 in the United States.
A 12-year-old in Atlanta, meanwhile, is showing improvement after her family said Sunday she was fighting for her life. Wednesday, she was coming out of sedation and "responding well" to her parents, cousin Justin Anthony said.
In Louisiana, which Gov. John Bel Edwards said is experiencing the fastest growth rate of cases in the world, residents have been ordered to stay home until April 12.
"We have overwhelmed our stocks of key resources needed for our hospitals, first responders and emergency managers. There will be a long-lasting impact on the state of Louisiana," he said.
Trump on Tuesday approved Edwards' request for a major disaster declaration, which will provide more federal aid for the state, where two parishes -- Jefferson and Orleans, in metro New Orleans -- are among the hardest-hit in the country.

US studies Italy's path
As more states implement stay-at-home orders, Trump isn't planning on a nationwide quarantine, he said.
Social distancing guidelines set forth by the federal government this month will expire next week. Among other guidelines, the "15-day pause" urges Americans to avoid public gatherings with more than 10 people.

Trump foresees a rapid recovery and "packed churches all over our country" on Easter, he told Fox News on Tuesday.
"I'm not sure that's going to be the day, but I will love to aim it right at Easter Sunday," he said.
The US has turned to Italy to understand how social distancing measures can help slow the virus' spread, a health official said Tuesday.
"We're looking very closely around the world, specifically Italy right now, because they are reaching their two weeks of clear social distancing -- and looking at the impact, we are seeing the number of deaths starting to decline," Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said on the "Today" show on NBC.

'This is your future'
New York's surge in cases should serve as a warning for the rest of the country, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said.
"Where we are today, you will be in three weeks or four weeks or five weeks or six weeks," he said. "What we do here will chart the course."
New York has a tally of more than 30,000 cases, several times that of any other state, and the majority of the state's cases are in New York City. Cuomo said 12% of New Yorkers who have tested positive are in the hospital and 3% of those people are in intensive care.
Cuomo attributed the high numbers to international tourism and the fact that New Yorkers live and work in close proximity to each other.

Anyone who has left New York over the past few days should self-quarantine, Birx said.
The state and city are making appeals to the federal government for more medical supplies.
New York's hospitals have enough personal protection equipment for only the next two weeks, Cuomo said. The state also needs about 30,000 ventilators. As of noon Wednesday, the state had 4,000 ventilators in hospitals, had 4,000 more on the way from the federal government, had purchased another 7,000 and is "still shopping," the governor said.
The ventilators are the "difference between life and death for thousands of New Yorkers," de Blasio said.
In addition, the state needs another 140,000 beds and 40,000 intensive care beds, on top of the roughly 53,000 beds it already has, Cuomo has said.

Anyone should have known that something like this would hit New York City and all the big cities anywhere near it. What did they do about it? Nothing. People have been leaving the area in droves and with good reason. Liberal policies have destroyed the cities and kept the rural areas in their states from growing and having vibrant economies. Taxes are unsustainable and NYC will need another huge bailout. The answer is to change policies which encourage dense urban areas. Cities need to be forced to prepare for catastrophes. Cuomo says we are one nation, while he demands all of the aid for NYC and to hell with everyone else. I want to help NYC as much as possible but it is the center of liberal elitism and purports to have all the answers. What happened to them? They failed again. 

[John Foote + 1,135]

6 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Anyone should have known that something like this would hit New York City and all the big cities anywhere near it. 

Mistake to view this as urban/rural. Cases will hit rural areas, just later, in rural America the lack of medical facilities and tools are a bigger issue. In the cities the surge overwhelms, rural areas simply lack the resources.

The US system is set up well for deploying to a hot spot, but if the system is already overtaxed in the cities, the resources are unlikely to swing to to a rural hospital with two doctors and no reperators.

Closing the borders to Chinese National only was silly because plenty of folks who weren't Chinese continued making the journey. Personally thankful because my daughter was one let back in, and she did self semi-quarentine, and came back to Texas and left San Francisco.

The boarder needed to be closed to everyone, US citizens and residents allowed re-entry but people returning needed quarantining. Easy to see now, not so easy mid-February. 

They playbook for addressing viral pandemics is well established, and there are people who've spent their entire lives working it. This one just transmits easier than the system could anticipate and we elected not to pursue the track and contain strategy. Hopefully it's mild for most of us. If I ever wanted to get fired at my job all I have to suggest is "hope" and then I get lambasted because hope is not a strategy. I can present probabilities and high risk paths are chosen. Doctors do tend to be risk averse. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

25 minutes ago, John Foote said:

Mistake to view this as urban/rural. Cases will hit rural areas, just later, in rural America the lack of medical facilities and tools are a bigger issue. In the cities the surge overwhelms, rural areas simply lack the resources.

The US system is set up well for deploying to a hot spot, but if the system is already overtaxed in the cities, the resources are unlikely to swing to to a rural hospital with two doctors and no reperators.

Closing the borders to Chinese National only was silly because plenty of folks who weren't Chinese continued making the journey. Personally thankful because my daughter was one let back in, and she did self semi-quarentine, and came back to Texas and left San Francisco.

The boarder needed to be closed to everyone, US citizens and residents allowed re-entry but people returning needed quarantining. Easy to see now, not so easy mid-February. 

They playbook for addressing viral pandemics is well established, and there are people who've spent their entire lives working it. This one just transmits easier than the system could anticipate and we elected not to pursue the track and contain strategy. Hopefully it's mild for most of us. If I ever wanted to get fired at my job all I have to suggest is "hope" and then I get lambasted because hope is not a strategy. I can present probabilities and high risk paths are chosen. Doctors do tend to be risk averse. 

It is plain to see who is overwhelmed and needs aid from the rest of the country. It is not the rural folks, and will not be. We have many hospitals in rural areas but are resistant to epidemics because of social distancing that is natural. We do not have mass transit, big buildings that jam people together and as many people touching the same surfaces. 

President Trump shut down American entry with criticism from the CCP, Xi, Europe, and our mainstream media. Later Europe and China followed his lead. 

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

Worker at NYC hospital where nurses wear trash bags as protection dies from coronavirus

The shortage of safety gear at one Manhattan hospital is so dire that desperate nurses have resorted to wearing trash bags — and some blame the situation for the coronavirus death of a beloved colleague.

A stunning photo shared on social media shows three nurses at Mount Sinai West posing in a hallway while clad in large, black plastic trash bags fashioned into makeshift protective garb.

One of them is even holding the open box of 20 Hefty “Strong” 33-gallon garbage bags they used to cloak themselves.

“NO MORE GOWNS IN THE WHOLE HOSPITAL,” the caption reads.

“NO MORE MASKS AND REUSING THE DISPOSABLE ONES…NURSES FIGURING IT OUT DURING COVID-19 CRISIS.”

The caption includes such hashtags as #heftytotherescue, #riskingourlivestosaveyours and #pleasedonateppe, with the “ppe” referring to “personal protective equipment.”

Meanwhile, staffers at the hospital near Columbus Circle on Wednesday tied the lack of basic supplies there to the death of assistant nursing manager Kious Kelly, who tested positive for coronavirus about two weeks ago.

Kelly, 48, was admitted to Mount Sinai’s flagship hospital on the Upper East Side on March 17 and died Tuesday night, the workers said.

“Kious didn’t deserve this,” one nurse said. “The hospital should be held responsible. The hospital killed him.”

Another nurse described “issues with supplies for about a year now,” during which it got “to the point where we had to hide our own supplies and go to other units looking for stuff because even the supply room would have nothing most of the time.”

“But when we started getting COVID patients, it became critical,” the nurse said.

The nurse sources said they were using the same PPE between infected and non-infected patients and, because there were no more spare gowns in the hospital, they took to wearing trash bags to stop the spread of infection.

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

Not even the "terrible Chinese dictatorship" had their healthcare staff face the infection dressed in garbage bags. And while the people and those who treat them are dying, republicans are cracking the "back to work whip" while Trump, wearing his "thoughtful" face tosses a coin whether today is the "social distancing" or "let's be smart about it" day. 

But here we can read that "Mr. President was totally correct opening the country for Easter". Bravo, Mr. President! 

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

It is inevitable that, at this point, there is no way to contain the virus but it is important to slow the rise and isolate the aged and infirm to protect them. Slowing the epidemic is very important. Hospitals can become quickly overwhelmed, as we have seen. We are learning this lesson the hard way. We have ignored the need for investment in emergency medical care during epidemics and other catastrophes. We need large amounts of supplies and medicines around the country. We are now using our armed forces to help out. That is a good thing, but might not be possible in time of war (God forbid). Americans spend far too much on many stupid things. We need to  spend more on emergency medical care, shelter, and food supplies. 

Not really

There is a cost that can't be realized in sales in keeping a large inventory of ICU beds. The US has 30% more per capita than Germany, which is no. 2. But that is not the problem at all.

The problem which the Dutch and Germans have solved is that they took bold action to get test kits made and started aggressively testing contact chains so that people were caught early in the progression of the disease, and they threw at it every possible treatment that had shown success anywhere. Particularly antivirals and HCQ+Zpak and its variants. This resulted in a 0.4% death rate - both from diluting the population tested with healthy non symptomatics and because of early treatment. 

The medical triage methods work in reverse. Early detection and treatment helps stop the overflow of cases in the hospitals. Testing someone on a ventilator is a waste of a test kit. We need more ventilators but what we need most is test kits. tens of millions of them. And we need to ignore the FDA's approval process and use the drugs and protocols that we have seen demonstrated to work before the FDA dots it i's and crosses their t's. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-and-the-netherlands-seem-to-fight-off-the-virus-better-than-most-heres-why-2020-03-25?mod=MW_article_top_stories

BTW, one of the reasons Italy had to have Chinese Russian and Cuban doctors and equipment flown in is because Germany has prohibited export of materials and equipment needed to contain and treat the infection. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Millions of "jobs" are doing nothing but depleting precious, dwindling resources while producing filler for landfills and garbage heaps. Humanity does not need dozens of models of cell phone, new one each six months, it does not need endless new cars, nor heaps of garbage that now form whole continents and islands in the sea. No. It's time to dismantle the obsolete dogma that mindless consumption and mindless production that enriches 1% of people while making the rest miserable is the objective of human existence. 

This crisis is an unique impulse and opportunity to try implementing the necessary changes, and slowing down the overheated global economy, because no matter how hard people like you are pushing their heads into the sand, the scientific data speak clearly - either human society changes the way it exploits their environments and abandons the nonsensical "Growth at all costs" paradigm, or climate change will wipe most of it out. 

Choosing to ignore the facts changes nothing. 

Human population is peaking. Not because we are running out of anything but because we have urbanized. Peak babies is nearly two years ago. India's peak babies was over a Decade ago. 60 years ago in EU and earlier in Japan. A bit later in China. All the high consuming nations have a shrinking population ahead of them. Their consuming demographic of younger than 45 (40 in China) is shrinking everywhere. The older boomers consume less and less as they age but for medical care. By the time they are 5 years into retirement they consume as little as 30% of what they were consuming at age 40. 

The "science" is junk. What we are facing is a glut of nearly free energy from solar in the US S. West, and wind in some key coastal regions. That requires lots of transmission capacity to be built, but once in place will alleviate substantial energy consumption. Coal is giving way to LNG, as is Diesel. We should be down 20% in oil demand for diesel and petrochem just from NG/LNG substitution within the decade, and 25% or more later on. And we are a half century out from those running out. But most of all, the demographics of developed economies dictate a fall of resource demand by 30% in general, and 40% in China, 50% if they stop expanding useless infrastructure and ghost cities. 

All that the Malthusians could dream of is becoming obsolete. The population explosion is over. The depletion of resources is slowing down, The global replacement birth rate is nicely below 2 and below 1.5 in many developed economies and China. What little reason there ever was for the great scare is long gone. 

Save the diatribe of irrelevant end of the world claptrap for the "things that didn't happen" book of 2030. We will all have a laugh at it as we break the wall between the apartment next door and expand to double our living space because nobody lived there. 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

You know what is funny is that 3 or 4 people post negative reactions to someone with a family who has lost their job, this crisis is really going to bring the best out of the good people and show the worst in the bad.

Roll eyes all you like lol

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Worker at NYC hospital where nurses wear trash bags as protection dies from coronavirus

The shortage of safety gear at one Manhattan hospital is so dire that desperate nurses have resorted to wearing trash bags — and some blame the situation for the coronavirus death of a beloved colleague.

A stunning photo shared on social media shows three nurses at Mount Sinai West posing in a hallway while clad in large, black plastic trash bags fashioned into makeshift protective garb.

One of them is even holding the open box of 20 Hefty “Strong” 33-gallon garbage bags they used to cloak themselves.

“NO MORE GOWNS IN THE WHOLE HOSPITAL,” the caption reads.

“NO MORE MASKS AND REUSING THE DISPOSABLE ONES…NURSES FIGURING IT OUT DURING COVID-19 CRISIS.”

The caption includes such hashtags as #heftytotherescue, #riskingourlivestosaveyours and #pleasedonateppe, with the “ppe” referring to “personal protective equipment.”

Meanwhile, staffers at the hospital near Columbus Circle on Wednesday tied the lack of basic supplies there to the death of assistant nursing manager Kious Kelly, who tested positive for coronavirus about two weeks ago.

Kelly, 48, was admitted to Mount Sinai’s flagship hospital on the Upper East Side on March 17 and died Tuesday night, the workers said.

“Kious didn’t deserve this,” one nurse said. “The hospital should be held responsible. The hospital killed him.”

Another nurse described “issues with supplies for about a year now,” during which it got “to the point where we had to hide our own supplies and go to other units looking for stuff because even the supply room would have nothing most of the time.”

“But when we started getting COVID patients, it became critical,” the nurse said.

The nurse sources said they were using the same PPE between infected and non-infected patients and, because there were no more spare gowns in the hospital, they took to wearing trash bags to stop the spread of infection.

That is what you get when you suspend the anti-trust act and allow hospitals to form purchasing co-ops that are regional monopolies. They ended up the profit center for the hospitals, given member hospital's commitments to buy only from this source. They jacked up prices to the point of most hospitals being unable to stock their store rooms, while driving prices down so low that only Chinese contracts could meet the price demands so that US manufacturers all left the business. So we have managed to create a situation where prices are high but there is no supply.

Those coops need to go. Remove their antitrust exemption. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

You know what is funny is that 3 or 4 people post negative reactions to someone with a family who has lost their job, this crisis is really going to bring the best out of the good people and show the worst in the bad.

Roll eyes all you like lol

Missed that, do you have a url?

[Nickd 0]

We need to get people working and support our economy. People are being overwhelmed with short term panic and there decision making is myopic. If the politicians collapse any of our economies we'll see millions of deaths. Only through the strength of our economy can government and citizens provide support to our health care, education, and help with the less fortunate. People have to speak up and against the single narrative of stop covid-19 at any cost. Most likely there will not be a vaccine, there are no vaccines for any of the other coronaviruses, we all need to be exposed to allow humanity to develop a resistance. 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

12 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Missed that, do you have a url?

It was on the previous page on this thread, doesn't bother me. Both US and UK government have made their deccision on what they're going to do, it's helicopter money time over here, I never really agreed with things like that but at least they're going to try to put any printed money in the hands of workers and small to medium business's.

It's been a surreal few days. We can't go out anywhere other than for a walk or to buy food, no one is working and the country and economy is grinding to a halt. I've never in my life seen anything so crazy.

I have no idea if they will honour what they've said but they are telling the self employed they will give them up to £2,500 per month from June based on their average earnings over the last 3 years.

Edited March 26, 2020 by El Nikko

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 hours ago, John Foote said:

They playbook for addressing viral pandemics is well established, and there are people who've spent their entire lives working it. This one just transmits easier than the system could anticipate and we elected not to pursue the track and contain strategy. Hopefully it's mild for most of us. If I ever wanted to get fired at my job all I have to suggest is "hope" and then I get lambasted because hope is not a strategy. I can present probabilities and high risk paths are chosen. Doctors do tend to be risk averse. 

That was a decision based on disinformation from China. Remember, no human to human transmission, then no aerosol transmission, then no surface contact transmission. None of these lasted more than a week before a study proved them wrong, Each week was precious time lost. Then we had the CDC with silly "not looking" test guidelines that prevented detection of community transmission. And then they prohibited private tests and the FDA stacked on reams of regulations to prevent test development. Then the CDC test failed and we lost 4 more weeks till commercial testing started development.

As to rural and suburban transmission. It is much much slower. Not that it doesn't happen, but there is no constant public proximity and contact with public surfaces. No apartment building doorways stairwells etc., No elevators, no public transport in sardine can conditions. Only schools, events and churches spread the disease rapidly. And that is easy to control and does much less economic damage.

The usual suburbanite has a 34 fold lesser chance of transmission via surfaces, and exposure to other people is less than 1/10th outside of schools and events. R0 may still be the same, but it takes much more time to happen. So the weak rural hospital system can still handle the little surges so long as a nursing home or a church don't become a hot spot. 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by 0R0

[0R0 + 6,251]

11 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

It was on the previous page on this thread, doesn't bother me. Both US and UK government have made their deccision on what they're going to do, it's helicopter money time over here, I never really agreed with things like that but at least they're going to try to put any printed money in the hands of workers and small to medium business's.

It's been a surreal few days. We can't go out anywhere other than for a walk or to buy food, no one is working and the country and economy is grinding to a halt. I've never in my life seen anything so crazy.

I have no idea if they will honour what they've said but they are telling the self employed they will give them up to £2,500 per month from June based on their average earnings over the last 3 years.

Well, they finally have the borrower of last resort to create the inflation central banks were missing for so long. Make supplies = 0, send out money to everyone (borrowed into existence) and you can have inflation during a deflationary trend. 

But there was really little else to do once quarantine became the chosen solution.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

It is plain to see who is overwhelmed and needs aid from the rest of the country. It is not the rural folks, and will not be. We have many hospitals in rural areas but are resistant to epidemics because of social distancing that is natural. We do not have mass transit, big buildings that jam people together and as many people touching the same surfaces.

It'll be interesting to revisit this comment in 3-4 weeks' time. Generally, the flu spreads more quickly through densly populated centers but is more deadly in rural areas because of lack of hospitals. I don't think any area is going to be spared.

We're moving into unknown territory now - lots of room for conjecture.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

33 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

You know what is funny is that 3 or 4 people post negative reactions to someone with a family who has lost their job, this crisis is really going to bring the best out of the good people and show the worst in the bad.

Roll eyes all you like lol

We're all going to do rather untoward things over the next few weeks - particularly on social media. Beyond a few paid trolls on these boards, I honestly think that everyone here is a good person but we all get triggered.

Somehow we are all going to have to pull together over the next year or we're all in trouble.

On thing I wonder:  What would happen if we find some antivirals and vaccines, but decide to only vaccinate people in our own countries while the virus runs rampant in Africa/South America? If there's no economy left there, people will try to leave. To where? Europe and North America.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

10 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

On thing I wonder:  What would happen if we find some antivirals and vaccines, but decide to only vaccinate people in our own countries while the virus runs rampant in Africa/South America?

The United States has never turned its back on people in need--if you don't count Rwanda. And then, uh, well, I guess you'd have to include the Native-Americans.  

The AIDS/HIV medicines even eventually made their way to deepest Africa, and they were expensive meds. Vaccines are relatively cheap. I imagine the emerging winner in the vaccine department will be one triggered by messenger-RNA, and therefore much more expensive to create. However, the successful company will make so much from wealthy countries that they can provide it to other countries at low cost.

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

4 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Millions of "jobs" are doing nothing but depleting precious, dwindling resources while producing filler for landfills and garbage heaps. Humanity does not need dozens of models of cell phone, new one each six months, it does not need endless new cars, nor heaps of garbage that now form whole continents and islands in the sea. No. It's time to dismantle the obsolete dogma that mindless consumption and mindless production that enriches 1% of people while making the rest miserable is the objective of human existence. 

This crisis is an unique impulse and opportunity to try implementing the necessary changes, and slowing down the overheated global economy, because no matter how hard people like you are pushing their heads into the sand, the scientific data speak clearly - either human society changes the way it exploits their environments and abandons the nonsensical "Growth at all costs" paradigm, or climate change will wipe most of it out. 

Choosing to ignore the facts changes nothing. 

Who anointed you God?? When did you get sole arbitration of what Society wants & needs??  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:18 AM, wrs said:

Unintentional injuries?

Probably Drug overdoses...

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, 0R0 said:

Not really

There is a cost that can't be realized in sales in keeping a large inventory of ICU beds. The US has 30% more per capita than Germany, which is no. 2. But that is not the problem at all.

The problem which the Dutch and Germans have solved is that they took bold action to get test kits made and started aggressively testing contact chains so that people were caught early in the progression of the disease, and they threw at it every possible treatment that had shown success anywhere. Particularly antivirals and HCQ+Zpak and its variants. This resulted in a 0.4% death rate - both from diluting the population tested with healthy non symptomatics and because of early treatment. 

The medical triage methods work in reverse. Early detection and treatment helps stop the overflow of cases in the hospitals. Testing someone on a ventilator is a waste of a test kit. We need more ventilators but what we need most is test kits. tens of millions of them. And we need to ignore the FDA's approval process and use the drugs and protocols that we have seen demonstrated to work before the FDA dots it i's and crosses their t's. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/germany-and-the-netherlands-seem-to-fight-off-the-virus-better-than-most-heres-why-2020-03-25?mod=MW_article_top_stories

BTW, one of the reasons Italy had to have Chinese Russian and Cuban doctors and equipment flown in is because Germany has prohibited export of materials and equipment needed to contain and treat the infection. 

We will have to wait and see how America does at the end of the game. Right now we have far fewer cases (About a third) confirmed than all of Western Europe and Southern Europe combined. That population is roughly equal to ours. 

Germany and the Netherlands were apparently quick to treat and I totally agree that our FDA has been a stumbling block. Bayer has promised us tens of thousands of doses of hydroxychloroquine. Treatment is more important than testing and we are far too afraid to use medications for off label uses. The FDA makes sure of that. 

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

Treatment is more important than testing and we are far too afraid to use medications for off label uses. The FDA makes sure of that. 

Right again, Ron. The FDA seems hell bent to leather to let people die for want of a medication that has already been approved for something else but has piss-poor clinical data for this illness. Man, I'm glad I took a different career path! These people! 

If hydroxychloroquine + Zithromax has worked in a few people, bring it on if I'm sick and headed for a ventilator. And why not crack open the Remsidivir? It has very few side effects. We used drugs off-label all the time, and got whacked very few times. Doctors and nurses know what's working, not the FDA. God, this just boggles the mind! Like a parallel universe or something!