Why Trump Is Right to Re-Open the Economy

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The shutdown is costing about $2 Trillion a month. That is the lifetime income of 740,000 people. So you are going to save old folks (average age of CV19 death is 80) by destroying the lives of 740000 people a month. That is something that the vast majority of the high risk group would gladly die for. I am sure many octogenarians would volunteer to get the virus deliberately so that nobody has to worry about them getting it any more. Whether it is 10k who would die or 100k, you don't shut down the lives of 320 million people for that. You can do it to allow the folks that have the disease to get through it, but only for a short period. A month is enough to slow the spread. In NYC, NJ and CA and MI states, the infection rates are 30% to over 40% in the big cities. Who is left to protect there?

If they had the brains, they would have put the big cities on lockdown BEFORE people started showing up at the hospitals. Once they are there in the 100s then you missed the boat because the virus propagates so rapidly.

The tradeoff is insane. 

The Guardian is a pink socialist rag and cares nothing for economic consequences. FYI socialist is an epithet. In case you didn't know.

If you have an economy that is capable of producing enough for everybody to go by, and yet still you have people hungry, without access to at least basic levels of education and healthcare, then it's perhaps time to think about replacing your obsolete distribution system designed to enrich the select few with one that won't strain the social tension between the wealthy and the poor to the limits, especially in a crisis like this. There are thresholds, you know, of how much a stable society can endure, and after exceeding those, sometimes even the basic building blocks of the social contract we have grown accustomed to consider granted rupture and are swept off with changes that surprise everyone. Just like this virus very few saw coming (Bill Gates did, though, among some). 

[REAL Green + 65]

This is a short and informative view of some steps needed immediately at both the top and bottom.  It is worth a look for anyone on either side of the divide:

 

“Anticipatory Resilience & Preparedness for the Coronavirus and Beyond Policy & Societal Interventions”

https://tinyurl.com/uxtolh5     Korowicz human systems PDF

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

India’s lockdown going really well!!

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-triggers-desperate-scramble-as-indians-walk-hundreds-of-miles-11965317

i fear for this country more than any

[REAL Green + 65]

3 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

i fear for this country more than any

Yea, imagine on top of the global viral damage an Indo-Pakistani war that goes nuclear.  These things happen when countries destabilize.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

You’re a cheerful soul!

[surrept33 + 609]

3 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

India’s lockdown going really well!!

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-triggers-desperate-scramble-as-indians-walk-hundreds-of-miles-11965317

i fear for this country more than any

Indeed, India feels like it's a humanitarian crisis about to happen in the next coming months. The extremely high amount of internal migration (450 million people) means that it'll probably spread like wild fire through the country as laborers go back home to rural areas in the next few weeks. At least they should be able to produce and distribute a lot of hydroxychloroquine given experience w/ malaria.

 

There is only a upper bound of 100k ICU units in the entire country:
 

From https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/india/2020-03-25/coronavirus-threatens-catastrophe-india:

Quote

 

This week, the novel coronavirus pandemic, which has affected nearly 200 countries, will begin to ravage one of the biggest, most vulnerable nations in the world. India, home to more than 1.3 billion people, is bracing for a surge in COVID-19 cases. The country already has the largest cohort of people in the world living with respiratory disease, thanks primarily to its chronic air pollution and high rates of tuberculosis. Such conditions make this densely populated country the perfect fodder for a virus that attacks the lungs of its victims.

India reported its first case of COVID-19 on January 30. Over the last few weeks, cases of the disease have grown exponentially, with 519 people infected and ten deaths as of March 24. According to the World Health Organization’s Situation Reports, the virus is spreading in India through local transmission and not simply through the arrival of people who contracted the virus abroad. But until March 21, the Indian government had set fairly restrictive criteria for testing, providing tests only for international travelers and their immediate contacts. On March 24, the government imposed a three-week lockdown to slow the spread of the disease.

India’s indecisive approach to testing has obscured the extent of undetected infections within the country, making the future magnitude of the outbreak hard to predict. India is already an unhealthy nation: it has the dubious distinction of being the “diabetes capital” and “cardiac capital” of the world with 50 million people living with diabetes and 54 million living with cardiovascular disease. Its threadbare public health system and exclusionary private health system don’t provide adequate care for all Indians. The country now finds itself preparing for an uphill battle against a virus that has already overwhelmed some of the most developed health-care systems in the world.

The pandemic will be especially dangerous in India. The country’s health infrastructure is woefully underfunded and unprepared for the eventual crush of COVID-19 patients. The distinctive misfortune of India’s geography—the Himalaya Mountains curtail the movement of winds across the subcontinent in a manner that worsens smog in northern India—has led to growing rates of respiratory disease. In 2018, nearly a third of the cases of chronic respiratory disease around the world were in India. The country already bears the burden of being home to the world’s largest number of people with tuberculosis (2.8 million of the global total of 10.2 million patients); those with tuberculosis are especially at risk of COVID-19. The virus may very well spark a humanitarian crisis. One estimate, using the same mathematical models applied in the United Kingdom and the United States, suggests that India could face in the area of 300 million cases before the end of July, of which about four million to five million could be severe, leading potentially to one million to two million deaths.

Panic and chaos have already set in across the country. A man hospitalized in New Delhi with COVID-19 symptoms committed suicide. A mob beat up another man in the western state of Maharashstra for sneezing in public. In the northwestern state of Punjab, officials in the town of Ludhiana have lost track of 167 people who may have contracted the virus. Quarantined people have begun running away from the unsanitary isolation wards hastily put up by authorities.

Many Indians don’t feel that they can rely upon the country’s medical establishment. Since independence in 1947, India has failed to invest sufficiently in health infrastructure, effectively handing over the responsibility for health care to private hospitals, which now control 74 percent of the health-care market and hold 40 percent of the nation’s hospital-bed capacity. Only about a tenth of the poorest one-fifth of Indians have access to any kind of government or private health insurance. The Indian government spends a little over one percent of GDP on health care, among the lowest rates in the world. Given relatively free rein to charge as they wish, India’s private hospitals have become notorious for priortizing profits over patients, overdiagnosing, overtreating, and overcharging those who have insurance. At underfunded government hospitals, doctors tend to underdiagnose the uninsured and offer them meager treatment.

That disparity is accentuated by a scarcity of resources. One of India’s most populous states, Maharashtra, has only 450 ventilators and 502 intensive care unit (ICU) beds in its public hospitals to meet the demands of 126 million people. Chhattisgarh, a state with a population of 32 million people, has 150 ventilators in government hospitals and perhaps only 25 specialists who know how to ventilate cases of acute respiratory distress syndrome, the kind of respiratory failure caused by COVID-19. The country lacks testing kits, protective gear for health-care workers, ventilators, and hospital beds. These deficits helped create India’s preventable epidemic of tuberculosis in recent decades, which continues to claim 1,400 lives every day, and now pave the way for a devastating coronavirus epidemic in the country. Of all the nations seriously affected so far, India is the least prepared to handle an explosion in cases.

Singapore is now the oft-invoked example of a country that properly contained its COVID-19 outbreak. The measures that worked in Singapore were to aggressively test people for the virus, identify and isolate cases, carefully trace the prior contacts of patients, and strictly quarantine people with suspicious symptoms.

India’s approach stands in sharp contrast. Answering criticism for its limited testing of suspected COVID-19 cases, the government broadened its testing criteria on March 21. But it insists that aggressive testing at the Singaporean scale is not realistic because of the size of India’s population. Testing aside, officials have struggled to trace the contacts of infected patients and to prevent people from fleeing isolation centers. Such measures as self-quarantine and social distancing will not be easily applied in a country where one-third of the population lives in dense, overcrowded cities.

The cultural orientation of the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi exacerbates these problems. His Hindu nationalist administration has encouraged unscientific thinking since coming to power in 2014. Modi and his ministers hold intellectuals and experts in disdain and have set up a ministry for promoting traditional medicine, such as Ayurveda and yoga. This ministry has endorsed dubious homeopathic prophylactic treatments and undermined the efforts of the health ministry to fight misinformation and superstition. The COVID-19 pandemic hits India as it is led by ideologues who have urged the use of cow dung and urine to prevent the spread of the virus. One activist belonging to Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party was arrested after people fell sick at a party he held in March where guests were encouraged to drink cow urine.

Although the prime minister has not himself extolled the virtues of cow urine as a defense against the virus, his approach to the crisis has been high on rhetoric and low on specifics. During televised remarks on March 19, Modi compared the battle against the COVID-19 pandemic to the world wars and warned of the likelihood of an exponential growth of infections in the absence of proper social distancing. But his address to the nation did not explain his government’s strategy to tackle the virus. Instead, he put the onus on citizens, calling on Indians to enter a self-imposed curfew on Sunday, March 22.

Although social distancing is necessary to contain the virus, this curfew has done little to break the chains of transmission that Modi’s government has allowed to spread unchecked since the beginning of March. Some Indians treated the curfew as the occasion to gather in festive crowds, obviating its intended purpose. Modi’s speech on March 19 ended with a request for Indians to thank their doctors, nurses, and emergency responders by imitating the singing now common in locked-down Italy and by gathering on rooftops and balconies to clap in unison.

Many health workers took to Twitter to express dismay at the vagueness of Modi’s speech. One doctor, Afreen Usman, whose husband is caring for COVID-19 patients, tweeted, “As a doctor myself and as [the] wife of a doctor who is working with coronavirus patients, let me assure you that we don’t want people clapping for us, what we really need is more testing kits, better quarantine facilities, hazmat suits, and more awareness.” Belatedly, Modi and his government swung into action, ordering a nation-wide lockdown for 21 days on March 24.

A number of local state governments have already acted decisively. The slow planning of the central government in New Delhi stands in stark contrast to the swift steps taken by state governments, especially those of the southern state of Kerala. As Modi was calling upon Indians to bang utensils and clap from their balconies, Pinarayi Vijayan, Kerala’s chief minister, announced a 200 billion rupee ($2.6 billion) financial package that includes loan waivers, free rations, pensions, and the setting up of low-cost eateries to help residents of the state endure the crisis.

According to some estimates, India has only between 70,000 and 100,000 ICU beds in the entire country across both the public and the private sectors. Health experts insist that India has until about April 10 to better prepare its hospitals, convert a few stadiums into isolation centers, and procure as many ventilators as possible. So far, Modi’s administration has not done any of these things. It has merely asked private hospitals to provide an inventory of ICU beds and ventilators, cancel nonessential surgeries, and make sure they don’t turn suspected COVID-19 patients away. The administration has, however, been quick to invoke the draconian British-era Epidemics Act of 1897, imposed during an outbreak of bubonic plague. The act gives the government sweeping powers to fine, detain, and imprison people for breaking quarantine rules, a nebulous power that could easily be misused. Historically, pandemics—and efforts to control them—have often led to measures that curtail civil liberties. Public health experts and pro-democracy activists in India are worried that the government might use the pandemic as an excuse to crack down further on dissent, which surged when protests against a controversial citizenship law erupted in December.

The epidemic curve in India is likely to follow a trajectory similar to that in Italy. A spike in cases will saturate and overwhelm India’s health system. Failing to contain the pandemic in India has global implications, as is evident in the spread of tuberculosis from the country. In 2015, U.S. health authorities confirmed that an Indian patient with a drug-resistant version of tuberculosis carried the infection to Chicago. The patient drove from there to visit relatives in Tennessee and Missouri. With diasporic Indians in nearly every part of the world, what ails India could easily become a grave threat to global health.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by surrept33

[0R0 + 6,251]

6 hours ago, Kirk said:

If you want to avoid a second wave & longer or double dip recession, the entire U.S. should be under travel restrictions and stay at home orders except for essentials for 30 days. We should have started 2 weeks ago. Longer we put this off, the longer this recession lasts, oh, and more people die, but I know some of you don’t care about that.

You don't stop it. If you care, you let the spread continue slowly till it is widely acquired. You don't really want there to be a large susceptible population. You want widespread immunity. 

Closing schools and other mass gatherings and restricting density on public transport would be sufficient to prevent an overwhelming wave. No need to shut down the entire economy. Good aggressive sanitation at work and retail are sufficient. Even that may be too aggressive. You would want the spread to be wide enough quickly enough so that the population gains immunity within a reasonable time. 

NYC metro is apparently at >40% exposure at 3-4 weeks of acting normally with schools open and people congregating till mid March. That is way too fast a spread, and overwhelmed the medical system. Other locations have had a slower spread or are just at an earlier stage in the sequence. CA set off earlier to stop the spread and has >25% infections in its cities Spread out cities and communities at low density at the second wave of viral contagion are at under 10% exposure. 

Note that the test is only designed to show live virus loadings. It does not test for antibodies, which would determine overall exposure rates. So the >40% carrying live virus for NYC metro is far below the exposure level, which should be around 80%. So essentially NYC should be going back to normal exactly when DeBlazio and Cuomo shut it down. Whomever was advising them should have tied them down in their chairs in late February and told them how it works. The only time a quarantine is worthwhile is when the disease had NOT YET SPREAD and the number of cases is tiny. AFTER they show up in droves at the hospital the prevalence of the disease is already approaching universal exposure. Thus there is no purpose for the quarantine at all where the medical system is overwhelmed, unless you gain from misery and economic disaster. Amidst the crowded hospitals and dying people on ventilators the picture outside should be of a bustling metropolis because anyone who can have the contagion already has it. 

 

The Wuhan Coronavirus will continue circulating around the world for the next year. You don't want to be in China's situation where you can't allow any air travel in because of the prevalence of the virus in the world outside the country. After quarantining aggressively for a long period shutting down all of the economy, They have only a small immune population in Wuhan and Guangdong. Another outbreak would find them at square one again with the disease spreading like wildfire. So they can't afford to let travel into the country for the next year. That will hamper their economic recovery by a long time and to a great extent. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

An alternative way of fighting the virus!!!

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

5 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

If you have an economy that is capable of producing enough for everybody to go by, and yet still you have people hungry, without access to at least basic levels of education and healthcare, then it's perhaps time to think about replacing your obsolete distribution system designed to enrich the select few with one that won't strain the social tension between the wealthy and the poor to the limits, especially in a crisis like this. There are thresholds, you know, of how much a stable society can endure, and after exceeding those, sometimes even the basic building blocks of the social contract we have grown accustomed to consider granted rupture and are swept off with changes that surprise everyone. Just like this virus very few saw coming (Bill Gates did, though, among some). 

That is not the case. When you shut down the vast bulk of the economy, there is nothing for anyone regardless of how well you were doing before. No production, no resources, no means to save people, and no means to fund anything. 

The argument you are making is a false one because it puts the outcome of the moving carriage ahead of the horses that pull it ahead. The carriage does not move if the horses are quarantined in the barn.

The discussion of social inequality has no space in this crisis. Money is not preventing anyone from being treated. 

What the society can not endure is having 1/3 to 2/3 of it being shut down deliberately to no purpose. 

[James Regan + 1,776]

7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Mostly out of paint now....finally!

Perfect for you Douglas. Make sure you have your wife (adult) to supervise....

https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Your-Own-Paint

Please post results...

Edited March 29, 2020 by James Regan

[James Regan + 1,776]

23 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

An alternative way of fighting the virus!!!

 

Rob will you argue with this dude, I think even Team CV19 wouldn't 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, James Regan said:

Rob will you argue with this dude, I think even Team CV19 wouldn't 

Yes I would because he’s a complete prick!

[El Nikko + 2,145]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

An alternative way of fighting the virus!!!

 

Vodka you say? Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop drinking

 

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The discussion of social inequality has no space in this crisis. Money is not preventing anyone from being treated. 

What the society can not endure is having 1/3 to 2/3 of it being shut down deliberately to no purpose. 

Really? How comes Boris Johnson was tested at slight signs of coughing, while mother of three with shortness of breath and fever was told she is "not a priority case", and their children watched her being carried out of the house dead in a plastic bag three days ago? 

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/03/19/us/politics/ap-us-virus-outbreak-unequal-testing.html

So, that's one b-sht red card for you, my friend. 

And yes, most of the economy produces stuff that nobody actually really needs, it's a proven fact. Only about 3 percent of workers actually produce food, while in the middle ages, 97 percent of the populace was working in agriculture. Are you telling me there is this increadible jump in efficiency and productivity, yet everyone must still work like a slave to the limits? Of course you can shut down major portions of the industry, because a lot of what is produced is redundant or luxuries people can go without. Stop wasting energy on resources on those, and switch to wartime rationing, so that everyone survives and is not left behind. 

BTW you can watch Trump's lies live now, people are really starting to be fed up with his "performance", how he demands that the governors compete for the promised medical equipment, and how he openly demands they bow before him as a savior. He is conditioning sending help to the states that need it by grovelling at his feet and begging. What is this, some oriental-style tyranny? I can't believe my eyes and ears. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

22 minutes ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Really? How comes Boris Johnson was tested at slight signs of coughing, while mother of three with shortness of breath and fever was told she is "not a priority case", and their children watched her being carried out of the house dead in a plastic bag three days ago? 

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/03/19/us/politics/ap-us-virus-outbreak-unequal-testing.html

So, that's one b-sht red card for you, my friend. 

And yes, most of the economy produces stuff that nobody actually really needs, it's a proven fact. Only about 3 percent of workers actually produce food, while in the middle ages, 97 percent of the populace was working in agriculture. Are you telling me there is this increadible jump in efficiency and productivity, yet everyone must still work like a slave to the limits? Of course you can shut down major portions of the industry, because a lot of what is produced is redundant or luxuries people can go without. Stop wasting energy on resources on those, and switch to wartime rationing, so that everyone survives and is not left behind. 

BTW you can watch Trump's lies live now, people are really starting to be fed up with his "performance", how he demands that the governors compete for the promised medical equipment, and how he openly demands they bow before him as a savior. He is conditioning sending help to the states that need it by grovelling at his feet and begging. What is this, some oriental-style tyranny? I can't believe my eyes and ears. 

I disagree.

Your reading of needs and purposes is not that of anyone else. Let us go about our business with care to restrict contagion. Then we can support the effort. Locked in at home we can't.

You are thinking without any economic function in mind. Just social justice is driving you. Social justice is achieved when we are all dead. In the interim, we are all unequal in every way but in front of the law. 

[Boat + 1,324]

On 3/24/2020 at 11:16 PM, ronwagn said:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929

What are the leading causes of death in the US?

• Heart disease
• Cancer
• Unintentional injuries
• Chronic lower respiratory disease
• Stroke and cerebrovascular diseases
• Alzheimer's disease
• Diabetes
• Influenza and pneumonia
• Kidney disease
• Suicide

Or you could say putting profit over patient outcomes has led to such poor US results. Republicans worry about the shareholder while falsely parroting how good the system performs. 
A huge part of the population uses the emergency room for their health care with no prevention screening. Highly inefficient and costly.

[Boat + 1,324]

4 hours ago, 0R0 said:

That is not the case. When you shut down the vast bulk of the economy, there is nothing for anyone regardless of how well you were doing before. No production, no resources, no means to save people, and no means to fund anything. 

The argument you are making is a false one because it puts the outcome of the moving carriage ahead of the horses that pull it ahead. The carriage does not move if the horses are quarantined in the barn.

The discussion of social inequality has no space in this crisis. Money is not preventing anyone from being treated. 

What the society can not endure is having 1/3 to 2/3 of it being shut down deliberately to no purpose. 

Most Americans like the idea of fighting for each and every life regardless  of cost. We will spend an exorbitant amount of money just to reclaim bodies from wars for example. No man left behind mentality. The poor and the old are no different. Individual acts of heroism to help any human are commonplace even though our politics seem to show the opposite. Most but not all embrace these ideals as the cornerstone of our country. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Boat

[0R0 + 6,251]

12 hours ago, Boat said:

Or you could say putting profit over patient outcomes has led to such poor US results. Republicans worry about the shareholder while falsely parroting how good the system performs. 
A huge part of the population uses the emergency room for their health care with no prevention screening. Highly inefficient and costly.

It is the entire system that has been corrupted. Medical doctors have a high rate of suicides. The system as setup in the 1960s was intended to promote monopolies for companies in the industry via regulations primarily through the FDA. Later in the 2000s hospital mergers and regional purchasing coops provided regional healthcare monopolies combined with pharmacy benefits managers which drove supplies and pharma manufacturing offshore due to low colluding bids and then the member hospitals paid absurd markups for the supplies, Their parent companies got kickbacks from the purchasing coops bigger than the hospital's net income. 

The system is indeed broken because of myriad lobbyists getting their way. 

The Obamacare system made it all worse as it increased demand without increasing supply. As did medicare, the largest payer of healthcare costs with its pricing mechanism. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by 0R0

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Boat said:

Or you could say putting profit over patient outcomes has led to such poor US results. Republicans worry about the shareholder while falsely parroting how good the system performs. 
A huge part of the population uses the emergency room for their health care with no prevention screening. Highly inefficient and costly.

 

3 hours ago, Boat said:

Or you could say putting profit over patient outcomes has led to such poor US results. Republicans worry about the shareholder while falsely parroting how good the system performs. 
A huge part of the population uses the emergency room for their health care with no prevention screening. Highly inefficient and costly.

So you are trying to tell me that the British health system is better than the American health system? Please tell me how you educate your people about their health and avoid having them go to the emergency departments for foolish reasons. I happen to be well aware of how our emergency system is abused by many people. Maybe you have a magic solution. We have health departments that offer medical care on a sliding scale for payment. They are available.

[REAL Green + 65]

The virus is here to stay for a time.  It will impact in waves so a flexible response is needed.  The entire economy cannot be shut down for very long, obviously.  This means a period of a few years and or until a vaccine is developed means get used to social distancing and an altered way of life.  It appears things like tourism and other economic sectors that require the gathering of people in confined areas are a dead man walking economically.

 

“Harvard Researchers Propose "Intermittent" Lockdowns And "Widespread Surveillance" Of Americans To Avoid Critical-Care Capacity”

https://tinyurl.com/vg5vco7     zero hedge

     zero hedge graph

 

“Researchers from Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health published a study titled "Social distancing strategies for curbing the COVID-19 epidemic," Tuesday (March 24) on the medRxive pre-print server for health sciences, detailing how a single prolonged widespread lockdown of the country is not the best strategy to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. Instead, the study calls for "intermittent" lockdowns and "widespread surveillance" to mitigate the spread and prevent hospital systems from being overwhelmed…However, the computer models are based on other pandemics and already show that one prolonged lockdown of the country is not the best solution because the virus will return in waves.  The study says some parts of the country where virus cases are low can remain open for business. While other parts that are hard-hit can enforce trict "stay-at-home" public health orders to mitigate the risks of overwhelming hospital systems…The study said the pandemic would likely hit in waves, with the virus subsiding this summer, but could return this fall…The study concludes by saying, "intermittent distancing measures" on 20-week intervals for specific geographical regions could be turned on and off like a water spigot through 2022…As for what determines if an area should be locked down for a 20-week interval is if cases exceed 37.5 cases of the disease per 10,000 adult people in the population. This threshold, the researchers note, would allow health care systems in those regions to maintain an adequate number of hospital beds and ICU-level treatments…To sum up, "intermittent" social distancing could become a reality, embraced by the Trump administration to avoid a prolonged depression in the US as much of the economy is shut down at the moment.”

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 3/27/2020 at 12:55 PM, Marcin2 said:

Chinese or US ?

Both are understated.

But the type of this crisis makes substantial data fraud in China difficult.

They relaxed most of quarantine measures, if they lied they would have another wave of massive cases starting to unravel just now.

You cannot hide 10,000 new cases even in dictatorship like China, and it would be already reality.

Marcin have a read of this.

https://www.newsweek.com/wuhan-covid-19-death-toll-may-tens-thousands-data-cremations-shipments-urns-suggest-1494914

This sounds far more accurate to me!

I make you correct that they cant hide it!!

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Rob Plant

[0R0 + 6,251]

52 minutes ago, REAL Green said:

The virus is here to stay for a time.  It will impact in waves so a flexible response is needed.  The entire economy cannot be shut down for very long, obviously.  This means a period of a few years and or until a vaccine is developed means get used to social distancing and an altered way of life.  It appears things like tourism and other economic sectors that require the gathering of people in confined areas are a dead man walking economically.

 

“Harvard Researchers Propose "Intermittent" Lockdowns And "Widespread Surveillance" Of Americans To Avoid Critical-Care Capacity”

https://tinyurl.com/vg5vco7     zero hedge

     zero hedge graph

 

“Researchers from Harvard's T.H. Chan School of Public Health published a study titled "Social distancing strategies for curbing the COVID-19 epidemic," Tuesday (March 24) on the medRxive pre-print server for health sciences, detailing how a single prolonged widespread lockdown of the country is not the best strategy to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. Instead, the study calls for "intermittent" lockdowns and "widespread surveillance" to mitigate the spread and prevent hospital systems from being overwhelmed…However, the computer models are based on other pandemics and already show that one prolonged lockdown of the country is not the best solution because the virus will return in waves.  The study says some parts of the country where virus cases are low can remain open for business. While other parts that are hard-hit can enforce trict "stay-at-home" public health orders to mitigate the risks of overwhelming hospital systems…The study said the pandemic would likely hit in waves, with the virus subsiding this summer, but could return this fall…The study concludes by saying, "intermittent distancing measures" on 20-week intervals for specific geographical regions could be turned on and off like a water spigot through 2022…As for what determines if an area should be locked down for a 20-week interval is if cases exceed 37.5 cases of the disease per 10,000 adult people in the population. This threshold, the researchers note, would allow health care systems in those regions to maintain an adequate number of hospital beds and ICU-level treatments…To sum up, "intermittent" social distancing could become a reality, embraced by the Trump administration to avoid a prolonged depression in the US as much of the economy is shut down at the moment.”

Effective treatment is more useful than on and off community releases. Apparently we have one that stops the progression of the illness and is safe enough to use widely for early stage disease where the patient is very likely to get over it himself. This allows the patient to stop being a carrier within 1/3 of the time, and reduces the chance of hospitalization to about 1% (we will need to wait for more test reports to figure this one out).

 This is not a useful program. It will prove too difficult to apply. And does not consider that communities have substantial portions of their population traveling elsewhere. It is an insane idea for national application.

I suggest a constitutional amendment prohibiting government "commands" having any teeth. Including quarantine, and natural disaster. No possibility of "shelter in place" orders any more. Give directions, tell the truth. If people believe you they will do what they have to. 

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

On 3/27/2020 at 5:37 AM, Rob Plant said:

Do you remember Brexit?

Dont see much of that in the news anymore lol

Very true. Here 'across the pond' as y'all are fond of saying, that was All we saw. How Brexit was gonna be the ruin of the UK. Guess that's not an issue anymore...

On a side note; Robert, I've been a huge fan since my (long ago) teen years!  Had tickets too see the band on the ITTOD tour , then sadly Bonzo passed.  I'm still gutted (as y'all say) over his death.  Why did you refuse Jimmy's efforts too get the lads back together?? I ask cuz you sing plenty of the songs on your Solo tours, yet say you 'Don't wanna live in the past'... What gives???

p.s.  Sorry, I'm sure you get that all the time, but couldn't resist...  Cheers!

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

4 minutes ago, Prometheus1354 said:

Very true. Here 'across the pond' as y'all are fond of saying, that was All we saw. How Brexit was gonna be the ruin of the UK. Guess that's not an issue anymore...

On a side note; Robert, I've been a huge fan since my (long ago) teen years!  Had tickets too see the band on the ITTOD tour , then sadly Bonzo passed.  I'm still gutted (as y'all say) over his death.  Why did you refuse Jimmy's efforts too get the lads back together?? I ask cuz you sing plenty of the songs on your Solo tours, yet say you 'Don't wanna live in the past'... What gives???

p.s.  Sorry, I'm sure you get that all the time, but couldn't resist...  Cheers!

Haha I do literally everywhere!

My parents must have a good sense of humour

I once wasn't allowed passed passport control in Charlotte until i sang down the guys mic to a crowd of people (remember those times). The guy regretted giving me the mic after that!

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

0R0 I must applaud your ability to lie constantly, in a low, droning, monotone way that really tires out your opponents. You are a great follower of your illustrious leader. 

Just to pick a few - "apparently, we have a substance that stops the disease" - you don't, unless clinical studies prove you do. And before you do, it's just wishful thinking, Donald's seeking of a miracle cure because the problem would go away and he would be the savior (which is what he wishes the most, to gloat in that role). 

Quarantine has no sense when the medical system has been already overwhelmed - that's another nonsense, when the medical system is overwhelmed, every person getting the virus and manifesting the bad symptoms is sentenced to death. By applying the lockdown, much fewer number of people has to die. Look at what is happening in Spain, Italy and New York. Also people with acute problems like strokes, heart attacks, etc. are sentenced to die, although treatment would save some of them otherwise. Those are also people dying from the mismanagement of the crisis, and those who mismanaged it are responsible. 

I also like how your list naming the causes of death in the USA conveniently omit the opioid crisis, as a result of the fact that fewer and fewer people can afford healthcare plan so they treat symptoms instead of diseases by painkillers, which paints a pretty bleak picture of the American society. The healthcare system has very low number of beds per unit of population, because the system is designed to cater to the richest who can pay the exorbitant prices, rather than to provide universal care for everyone. 

The ugly truth behind all these frankly very silly and logically weakly constructed rationalization is that the richest people in the US (but not only in the US) do not give a twopenny fck about how many ordinary people die - but what they do care about is not losing their wealth and privileges. So, it's back to work, little people, and if you keel over, never mind, there is someone right behind you who will hopefully last a few hours longer! Because you don't see people like Trump or the Texas governor urging people to go to work going to the frontlines and helping the healthcare staff, taking the hit and dying as they die. Oh no, you will never see that. Like that twat Bolsonaro shouting at common people that they have to take the virus "like men, not like boys!". 

Listen to this guy, he knows what he is talking about, because he is a doctor, and unlike you understands intimately how the disease work. And he urges people like you to take it seriously, and for a good reason.