Marine based energy generation

[David Williams + 1]

The Renewables Team.....

Perhaps a baseload energy system like this may be worth some discussion?

Below is a comparison of area required vs energy generated for wind and solar, compared to a new marine system.

WIND....
5mW turbine; swept area 20,000sq mts, + large ground area.
No recycled materials. Environment damaging noise levels.
6-14 hrs/day capacity, VERY dependant on location. 
Interrupted supply, not 'on demand' energy... unless wind is blowing.
Massive outlays per rated mW.

Very unpredictable energy flow. 

Serious grid connect issues. 

SOLAR....
2mW solar; area 20,000sq mts.
No recycled materials.
4-6 hr/day capacity. Very unpredictable energy flow.
Not 'on demand' energy.
Considerable outlays per mW.

Serious grid connect issues, globally.

MARINE....
2 Giga Watts++; area 20,000sq mts.
100% green. High recycled materials.
'On demand' supply, 24/7/365, in any weather.
Considerably reduced establishment outlays per rated mW.
Predictable level energy flow.

Easily duplicatable, globally.
ZERO harm to marine/bird life.

Dramatically reduced grid connect issues. 

This new marine system is at least US$15 billion cheaper than a 2gW coal or nuclear facility, or a new 2gW hydro scheme.
Saves billions of giga litres of fresh water wastage per year.

l would like your opinion on whether an energy generation system like this may be useful. If you feel it may be, or not, please jump in to this discussion and have your say.

 

David

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

With oil at $30/bbl....who is interested in renewables?😂

[James Regan + 1,776]

WIND....
5mW turbine; swept area 20,000sq mts, + large ground area.
No recycled materials. Environment damaging noise levels.
6-14 hrs/day capacity, VERY dependant on location. 
Interrupted supply, not 'on demand' energy... unless wind is blowing.
Massive outlays per rated mW.

Very unpredictable energy flow. 

Serious grid connect issues. 

SOLAR....
2mW solar; area 20,000sq mts.
No recycled materials.
4-6 hr/day capacity. Very unpredictable energy flow.
Not 'on demand' energy.
Considerable outlays per mW.

Serious grid connect issues, globally.

MARINE....
2 Giga Watts++; area 20,000sq mts.
100% green. High recycled materials.
'On demand' supply, 24/7/365, in any weather.
Considerably reduced establishment outlays per rated mW.
Predictable level energy flow. 

Easily duplicatable, globally.
ZERO harm to marine/bird life.

Dramatically reduced grid connect issues. 

 

OIL....

120,000++ TWh 2019

Black

Over supplied by billions of Bbls

Highly efficient.

Very Cheap

Available globally

Kills anything that drinks it.

Keeps the world running.

Everything you used to write this post has petroleum based products in its make up.

Starts arguments and wars.

Keeps economies afloat.

Is required for all of the above utopian dreams.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

8 hours ago, David Williams said:

The Renewables Team.....

WIND....
5mW turbine; swept area 20,000sq mts, + large ground area.
SOLAR....
2mW solar; area 20,000sq mts.
MARINE....
2 Giga Watts++; area 20,000sq mts.
l would like your opinion on whether an energy generation system like this may be useful. If you feel it may be, or not, please jump in to this discussion and have your say.

You say wind is more expensive than solar?  🤣🤣  Wind turbines could be near 100% recyclable.  As is, most is recyclable. 

You say 2 GW.... from "marine" ... whatever that means.  Inputs, not stated...2GW is not a power number, this is an instantaneous number..... 

👌🌈🦄

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

9 hours ago, David Williams said:

The Renewables Team.....

Perhaps a baseload energy system like this may be worth some discussion?

Below is a comparison of area required vs energy generated for wind and solar, compared to a new marine system.

WIND....
5mW turbine; swept area 20,000sq mts, + large ground area.
No recycled materials. Environment damaging noise levels.
6-14 hrs/day capacity, VERY dependant on location. 
Interrupted supply, not 'on demand' energy... unless wind is blowing.
Massive outlays per rated mW.

Very unpredictable energy flow. 

Serious grid connect issues. 

SOLAR....
2mW solar; area 20,000sq mts.
No recycled materials.
4-6 hr/day capacity. Very unpredictable energy flow.
Not 'on demand' energy.
Considerable outlays per mW.

Serious grid connect issues, globally.

MARINE....
2 Giga Watts++; area 20,000sq mts.
100% green. High recycled materials.
'On demand' supply, 24/7/365, in any weather.
Considerably reduced establishment outlays per rated mW.
Predictable level energy flow.

Easily duplicatable, globally.
ZERO harm to marine/bird life.

Dramatically reduced grid connect issues. 

This new marine system is at least US$15 billion cheaper than a 2gW coal or nuclear facility, or a new 2gW hydro scheme.
Saves billions of giga litres of fresh water wastage per year.

l would like your opinion on whether an energy generation system like this may be useful. If you feel it may be, or not, please jump in to this discussion and have your say.

 

David

DW;

I've always felt that if there was one 'renewable' form of energy that had the potential for real viability, it would be wave energy. Unlike wind farms, which need to be blowing at a requisite velocity for the turbines to turn.  As for solar; well if there's a storm or it's night time, well no energy is being produced.  Tidal energy farms, they produce energy 24/7 365.  Period.  

The 'problem' with them is aesthetics.  By that I mean the very peoples who want this technology, Don't want it where they would have to 'look' at it. Or let it interfere with their boat/yacht. Much like offshore windfarms are 'all the rage' so long as the Eco's Don't have too look at them. One such example of this Hypocrisy. Why none other than former MA Sen./SoS John Kerry.  He and several of his friends derailed the Cape Wind project upon learning of its intended local. Right off of Nantucket; within 'eye sight' of his summer home.  (Ohhh the Horror!!)  Those who oppose wave energy farms often cite how the above waterline part of the system is 'un appealing' and a 'blight' for the area.  Another area of attack they come under is from the eco's who are all about savin the critters.  They say the wave generators either pollute. Cause acoustic damage. (Whales & Dolphins)  Destroy habitat or (insert excuse)…  My take, they are a viable option that needs to be looked at.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Prometheus1354

[ronwagn + 6,290]

5 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

You say wind is more expensive than solar?  🤣🤣  Wind turbines could be near 100% recyclable.  As is, most is recyclable. 

You say 2 GW.... from "marine" ... whatever that means.  Inputs, not stated...2GW is not a power number, this is an instantaneous number..... 

👌🌈🦄

I am reading that the blades are being buried at great expense. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

3 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I am reading that the blades are being buried at great expense. 

No reason you could not make them out of aluminum. I was arguing to do so when working on turbines 20 years ago as we could make them in sections which are easily transportable eliminating the gigantic transportation OVERSIZE load expense. Aluminum once it has been refined out of the ground is far cheaper to recycle as one, it requires little energy, and two, the percentage you can recycle is well over 85%.  And the 85% number is cumulative of all aluminum from all sources, not a whole massive structure like a turbine blade.  Blades would be heavier though and you would see a slight performance drop as either RPM has to drop or length of blade must be made shorter. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

I think that would be a great improvement. Aluminum must be very cheap, They are paying about 50 cents for a large bag of aluminum cans. That has been the price for about forty years, if my memory serves me well. Somebody is benefitting greatly from that price. I have even thought of building an aluminum smelter myself. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

Just now, ronwagn said:

I think that would be a great improvement. Aluminum must be very cheap, They are paying about 50 cents for a large bag of aluminum cans. That has been the price for about forty years, if my memory serves me well. Somebody is benefitting greatly from that price. I have even thought of building an aluminum smelter myself. 

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

1) Lots of magnesium

2) Lots of plastic coatings inside and out. 

3) Not much aluminum due to oxidation due to VERY thin material.

True, better than nothing, but...

PS: Recycling glass bottles has a far greater % than aluminum cans,(near 100% actually) but everyone hates them as they are heavy and take up space making SHIPPING expensive.

[markslawson + 1,057]

16 hours ago, David Williams said:

Perhaps a baseload energy system like this may be worth some discussion?

Below is a comparison of area required vs energy generated for wind and solar, compared to a new marine system.

David - I was under the distinct impression that wave and tidal energy capture (is that what you meant by marine?) was the most expensive form of renewable energy, not the cheapest as you seem to be saying. That's what the levelised cost comparisons published now and then say. The generators for this form of energy require considerable capital investment. For that and other reasons it is also the least used. However, I am prepared to be corrected on this.. so where did the stuff in the original post come from? Come to think of it - what new marine system? How come its base load? I don't know of any marine system that dispatchable (what you mean by base load), not even the ones that operate by tide.. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

17 hours ago, David Williams said:

This new marine system is at least US$15 billion cheaper than a 2gW coal or nuclear facility, or a new 2gW hydro scheme.
Saves billions of giga litres of fresh water wastage per year.

$15 billion cheaper than a 2 GW coal or nuclear plant? Okay, coal plants don't even cost 15 billion.

"Billions of giga litres" what kind of garbage measurement is this? That's like saying "yea that power plant has a thousand million watt capacity". 

Maybe English isn't your first language, I apologize if this is the case. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

1) Lots of magnesium

2) Lots of plastic coatings inside and out. 

3) Not much aluminum due to oxidation due to VERY thin material.

True, better than nothing, but...

PS: Recycling glass bottles has a far greater % than aluminum cans,(near 100% actually) but everyone hates them as they are heavy and take up space making SHIPPING expensive.

Well, that is news to me. A lot of poor people make money off of them and they find a ready buyer. They just never get an inflation adjusted price. Maybe you can explain that. Glass is not saleable to my knowledge. Some states force you to return it for a deposit you pay in advance. 

[James Regan + 1,776]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

1) Lots of magnesium

2) Lots of plastic coatings inside and out. 

3) Not much aluminum due to oxidation due to VERY thin material.

True, better than nothing, but...

PS: Recycling glass bottles has a far greater % than aluminum cans,(near 100% actually) but everyone hates them as they are heavy and take up space making SHIPPING expensive.

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

Tell that to the guy going through trash cans and picking up cans off the beach to support his family.

You're basing your info on recycling where? - USA?

If I can be so bold to assume so (if not disregard my waffling) in a recent trip to the USA I was amazed at how much they throw away in the same trash bag, food, glass, cans, plastics etc, why because its too expensive to recycle, well thats not really the case. Its just easier to throw it all away. 

I live in "3rd" world country and we recycle EVERYTHING, Aluminium is the biggest and most lucrative recycled material in volume in Brasil, it keeps families alive and companies wealthy.

If there a will there's a way and this is most definitely the case in recycling, once you're set up its a no brainer, any argument against is just misinformed or laziness.

Edited April 5, 2020 by James Regan

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, James Regan said:

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

Tell that to the guy going through trash cans and picking up cans off the beach to support his family.

You're basing your info on recycling where? - USA?

If I can be so bold to assume so (if not disregard my waffling) in a recent trip to the USA I was amazed at how much they throw away in the same trash bag, food, glass, cans, plastics etc, why because its too expensive to recycle, well thats not really the case. Its just easier to throw it all away. 

I live in "3rd" world country and we recycle EVERYTHING, Aluminium is the biggest and most lucrative recycled material in volume in Brasil, it keeps families alive and companies wealthy.

If there a will there's a way and this is most definitely the case in recycling, once you're set up its a no brainer, any argument against is just misinformed or laziness.

You get $0.10 for a Al can in Canada $0.25 for anything 1L and above.  Poor people love collecting trash...

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, James Regan said:

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

Tell that to the guy going through trash cans and picking up cans off the beach to support his family.

You're basing your info on recycling where? - USA?

If I can be so bold to assume so (if not disregard my waffling) in a recent trip to the USA I was amazed at how much they throw away in the same trash bag, food, glass, cans, plastics etc, why because its too expensive to recycle, well thats not really the case. Its just easier to throw it all away. 

I live in "3rd" world country and we recycle EVERYTHING, Aluminium is the biggest and most lucrative recycled material in volume in Brasil, it keeps families alive and companies wealthy.

If there a will there's a way and this is most definitely the case in recycling, once you're set up its a no brainer, any argument against is just misinformed or laziness.

My brother still lives in California. He dutifully sorts everything. He has to return bottles, even plastic bottles, and cans for a deposit that is charged at purchase. Where I live, in central Illinois, we have one big rolling can for paper metal and glass all put together, no dirty stuff. Barrels for garbage and worthless stuff, separate barrels for leaves and small branches etc. We just got rid of 35 barrels of mostly oak leaves and some small branches. A few more barrels to go. That is all from one acre. I guess some of it is used for mulch, but not much. I already have all the mulch I need right now. 

We have "thrift stores" in Illinois where you can get clothes and household items for practically nothing. We have free food distribution by private groups, a Salvation Army, and all sorts of services available. Public housing is good and cheap for those that follow the rules. Nice used furniture is free or cheap. Life is tough for a few people in the winter, but they find a way. A few are insistent to beg, usually so  they can get cash for drugs or alcohol. People try to give them food instead. There are some who wear out their welcome everywhere. 

What do you think of President Bolsonaro? I know he is under a lot of pressure, like President Trump is. 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by ronwagn
addition

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

5 hours ago, James Regan said:

Aluminum cans are uh, crap for recycling as 

Tell that to the guy going through trash cans and picking up cans off the beach to support his family.

You're basing your info on recycling where? - USA?

If I can be so bold to assume so (if not disregard my waffling) in a recent trip to the USA I was amazed at how much they throw away in the same trash bag, food, glass, cans, plastics etc, why because its too expensive to recycle, well thats not really the case. Its just easier to throw it all away. 

I live in "3rd" world country and we recycle EVERYTHING, Aluminium is the biggest and most lucrative recycled material in volume in Brasil, it keeps families alive and companies wealthy.

If there a will there's a way and this is most definitely the case in recycling, once you're set up its a no brainer, any argument against is just misinformed or laziness.

If you have no job and have nothing but TIME to burn, then sorting trash is more lucrative than watching TV. Done it many times in my life.  Usually on heavy equipment and scrap metal.  Aluminum cans get ~15%-->30% of their value by weight as they have tons of plastic, magnesium, and dirt/water.  Recycle places aren't stupid.  They do not pay for water and dirt.  Likewise new cans compared to old cans are 2/3 the weight, so now everyone has to pick up even MORE for same $$$.   Now if you live in a country which subsidizes the aluminum can recycling business, then the cans are worth a LOT LOT LOT more.  Everywhere not subsidized? 

Anyone would be far better off spending a couple hours fixing a car, picking up dog doo, cleaning toilets, than spending a month picking up aluminum cans.  Now if I see an aluminum can, sure, I pick them up(hate the trash), take it home, crush it throwing it in my aluminum can bin.  Probably have 100kg sitting in my bin right now.  That is roughly ~50+++-->100 cans/kg(love beer tall boys)😀.  1 kg of cans is worth ~$0.50 at the BIG scrap metal places and ONLY if you have a LOT of cans and they are NOT wet and NOT dirty.  If dirty, price drops immediately in half or they are not accepted at all  So, my picking up roughly +5000 aluminum cans, will net me at the scrap metal place $50... before taxes, before travel expenses...  Net after taxes, travel expenses is roughly ~$30.  Now if I take it with a lot of scrap copper, car batteries, aluminum window frames, and steel, then it is more profitable. 

Or instead of spending exact same amount of time picking up 0-->100 random cans, making a whopping $0.50, I spend talking to a business, get their cardboard waste on a ~biweekly basis, pick it up on weekend moving ~1 ton of cardboard, take it to recycler and make $200 before taxes, travel expenses....(Cardboard has been as high as $500/ton).... 🤔   Same price per ton as that 6 trillion random cans you have to pick up, clean, crush, keep dry, store till you have enough.  Gee, which one will I do... 

PS: Most lucrative recyclable material is your neighbors car catalytic converter(Platinum) followed by Copper #1(bus bars in big motors), copper#2(wiring usually), Copper #3(wire with insulation, motors etc), brass, heating elements(nickel), bulk clean aluminum(mostly manufacturing houses but they KNOW what it is worth and you have to buy it from them, but then you just have to be the transporter/middleman, lead car batteries, cardboard, yes, cardboard is just as valuable as; bulk steel, scrappish aluminum, scrapish steel, and then down at the bottom, aluminum cans, paper, plastic and  then of course glass at ~$0.     Coming soon: Lithium battery recycling-->maybe, as they have plenty of different materials in them making them VERY poor candidates for recycling.

PPS: Confusing normal recycling(great-->everyone does it including me) with the specific recycling of aluminum cans is not A-Ok  Now in my case, I kinda of cheat as my direct neighbor runs a scrap business so over the years I have taken jobs, customers he does not have time for.  It is great weekend side cash business and gets me OUT of the DAMNED OFFICE/Computer and into fresh air!

PPPS: Want cans, jars, jugs recycled?  Put a ~$0.10 deposit fee on them; aluminum, glass, plastic.   Works everywhere this has been implemented and sides of roads mysteriously become clean overnight as the assholes who throw their trash out the window do not do so anymore.  At least do so far less.

[James Regan + 1,776]

4 hours ago, ronwagn said:

What do you think of President Bolsonaro? I know he is under a lot of pressure, like President Trump is. 

I supported him during the popular vote, I can't vote but still pushed his agenda, purely because he is ultra right wing. Anything to get rid of the PT Workers Party - Communists who robbed the country, you know the story.

It's because of Trump he's under pressure and his constant mirroring of what Trump does, problem lies in the fact that Brasil is a 3rd world country, what works for Trump in America won't work here in Brasil.

You will see what Brasil thinks of the Popular B17 very soon as we start to see the COVID19 virus take hold. I still like the fact he is a right wing leader and at any point he could surprise the shit out of you, he is no thief, other than that he is powerless.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

 

PPPS: Want cans, jars, jugs recycled?  Put a ~$0.10 deposit fee on them; aluminum, glass, plastic.   Works everywhere this has been implemented and sides of roads mysteriously become clean overnight as the assholes who throw their trash out the window do not do so anymore.  At least do so far less.

 

Anything equal or over a litre  (2L plastic pop bottle, 4L milk jugs) is $0.25 here. All, pop or beer cans = $0.10

 We don't have that kind of litter in our roadside ditches people clean that...

sorry wrong down voted the rest

Edited April 5, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Pristine ditches...

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Okay, let’s think this whole recycling thing through. No firm is accepting sorted, recyclable waste out of the goodness of their hearts. Like any business, they are in waste management to make money.

Nowadays, in many cities, suburbs and towns globally, it is mandated that people segregate their waste and place them in dedicated paper, plastic and glass bins. Let’s assume these bins are then placed at the curb for weekly collection.

Now, using common sense, imagine the sheer volume of recyclable waste that is collected by every city, suburb or town on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis. It is an unbelievable volume of material!

Now remember, waste management companies are in it for profit, how else could they stay in business? Many are listed on various stock exchanges.

Do you honestly think that these companies could possibly recycle the enormous amount of material delivered to them? Of course not! They sort through our stuff, remove what they can recycle for profit, and guess where the rest goes? To your local landfill, incinerator or other less than green process or location.

People seem to think that once they segregate their garbage, put it into it’s respective bin, and wheel it out to the curb, that it magically disappears when the truck collects it every Tuesday morning!

If we were really serious about this issue we would demand less packaging and packaging which deteriorates in nature. That would be a realistic start. 

 

[James Regan + 1,776]

4 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay, let’s think this whole recycling thing through. No firm is accepting sorted, recyclable waste out of the goodness of their hearts. Like any business, they are in waste management to make money.

Nowadays, in many cities, suburbs and towns globally, it is mandated that people segregate their waste and place them in dedicated paper, plastic and glass bins. Let’s assume these bins are then placed at the curb for weekly collection.

Now, using common sense, imagine the sheer volume of recyclable waste that is collected by every city, suburb or town on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis. It is an unbelievable volume of material!

Now remember, waste management companies are in it for profit, how else could they stay in business? Many are listed on various stock exchanges.

Do you honestly think that these companies could possibly recycle the enormous amount of material delivered to them? Of course not! They sort through our stuff, remove what they can recycle for profit, and guess where the rest goes? To your local landfill, incinerator or other less than green process or location.

People seem to think that once they segregate their garbage, put it into it’s respective bin, and wheel it out to the curb, that it magically disappears when the truck collects it every Tuesday morning!

If we were really serious about this issue we would demand less packaging and packaging which deteriorates in nature. That would be a realistic start. 

 

We don't need bins to segregate, in our house we put all paper materials packaging etc in one bag, all cans in another, cardboard boxes etc and we leave it in the street within an hour its been collected by people who take it to the holding place where they are paid, or they collect enough and call them in to carry it away by truck.

The Garbage truck mainly picks up food waste, we have city garbage collection Every day. 

I agree its business but its country dependent, and here it goes directly into the hands of those who need the money to live.

Just my side from Brasil.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 minutes ago, James Regan said:

We don't need bins to segregate, in our house we put all paper materials packaging etc in one bag, all cans in another, cardboard boxes etc and we leave it in the street within an hour its been collected by people who take it to the holding place where they are paid, or they collect enough and call them in to carry it away by truck.

The Garbage truck mainly picks up food waste, we have city garbage collection Every day. 

I agree its business but its country dependent, and here it goes directly into the hands of those who need the money to live.

Just my side from Brasil.

You are missing my point. Recycling, as it is done now, does very little to reduce the actual volume of waste regardless who’s hands the waste ends up in when it leaves your house.

[James Regan + 1,776]

30 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You are missing my point. Recycling, as it is done now, does very little to reduce the actual volume of waste regardless who’s hands the waste ends up in when it leaves your house.

http://abal.org.br/en/sustainability/recycling/recycling-in-brazil/

Maybe our situation is because I live so close to this city, can't be said for the poorer north where they do have serious garbage heaps polluting river, point taken.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

24 minutes ago, James Regan said:

http://abal.org.br/en/sustainability/recycling/recycling-in-brazil/

Maybe our situation is because I live so close to this city, can't be said for the poorer north where they do have serious garbage heaps polluting river, point taken.

Jimmy, the link only deals with aluminum recycling, which can be very profitable. As for the rest of the stuff, Brasil is no different than other countries.

[specinho + 467]

On 4/5/2020 at 12:14 AM, Prometheus1354 said:

Tidal energy farms, they produce energy 24/7 365.  Period. 

Not sure if this illustration is appropriate but.............