A small trial finds that hydroxychloroquine is not effective for treating coronavirus

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

3 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

self-medicating.

Morons have been removing themselves from the gene pool for centuries via self medication. 60,000 a year kill themselves with real and synthetic heroin every year in this country. To put that in perspective, that number equals the expected deaths here from Covid19. You'll have to do better with your TDS arguments. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

4 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

Well, unlike you, I actually do. So far, there is only the original dubious French study whose metodology has been widely questioned, then there is one other study that comes to a conclusion that it "moderately alleviates mild cases", and then there is this study that finds it does not help at all. What you posted are some speculations - in medicine, you need a double blind study clearly proving efficacy of a cure to be recognized as such. Throwing random stuff at the patients and praying is not the scientific way. Trump is declaring HCL is the miracle cure, because he wants his buddies from Bayer to make good money - after all, he is their long time pal, he helped them in the past too:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-backs-bayer-in-weedkiller-court-fight-11576879555

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-04-06/rudy-giuliani-covid-19-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine

The actual evidence, however, there is none. On the other hand, there are dangerous side-effects despite Trump's saying the drug "won't kill anyone", it actually can, plus it's definitely not a "gamechanger" - that's two Trump lies on the subject.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/04/05/researchers-warn-that-covid-19-treatment-touted-by-trump-may-be-toxic-when-combined-with-diabetes-drug/#699e2b3b55f8

As it often is, there is no "miracle cure", no snake oil salesman will save us at the last minute. It's a new virus attacking the body with new methods, and to stop it, a new cure will probably have to be found. If it ever is found - there is still no cure for HIV after decades. 

Why is this about Trump?

This is medicine. This is science. The science has at hand reason to expand to quantitative definitive trials and to broadly use it as doctors see fit. Trump was presented with the HCQ evangelist in the WH, Navarro, went through the multiple trials as they were at the time and convinced Trump that they are promising. Trump simply made sure that the FDA and other medical system apparatchiks had a tough time tripping up this process, as they do day in and day out for any cheap treatment that does not benefit a big pharma company touting a patent medicine. They routinely crush any attempt to reduce the cost of patient treatment in order to funnel profits to pharma companies and hospitals which later hire them for high six figure consulting jobs or directorships. The aparat is refractory to considerations of patient's interests in low cost highly effective cures vs. treatments, particularly very expensive ones. 

So yes, there are problems in implementing any treatment. Let the medical profession figure it out. They have been voting with their feet and taking the HCQ/Z or equivalents for a couple of weeks already as a prophylactic. 

You keep pulling at this as if it is some existential threat to you. That makes you seem like another CCP shill trying to prevent the crisis from resolving, just as some Democrats are trying to do. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

5 hours ago, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

HCL

????

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

SARS (Severe acute respiratory syndrome) is now SARS-CoV-2 (severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2); which is the real name for COVID-19, Corona Virus, etc. 

It turns out a treatment for SARS existed already and was known to be effective back in the early 2000s when the first SARS outbreak happened. 

Effects of chloroquine on viral infections: an old drug against today's diseases

Published:November, 2003

DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(03)00806-5

Summary

Chloroquine is a 9-aminoquinoline known since 1934. Apart from its well-known antimalarial effects, the drug has interesting biochemical properties that might be applied against some viral infections. Chloroquine exerts direct antiviral effects, inhibiting pH-dependent steps of the replication of several viruses including members of the flaviviruses, retroviruses, and coronaviruses. Its best-studied effects are those against HIV replication, which are being tested in clinical trials. Moreover, chloroquine has immunomodulatory effects, suppressing the production/release of tumour necrosis factor α and interleukin 6, which mediate the inflammatory complications of several viral diseases. We review the available information on the effects of chloroquine on viral infections, raising the question of whether this old drug may experience a revival in the clinical management of viral diseases such as AIDS and severe acute respiratory syndrome, which afflict mankind in the era of globalisation.

Chloroquine is a 9-aminoquinoline that has been known since 1934. Specifically synthesised to be used as an antimalarial agent, chloroquine was subsequently shown to have immunomodulatory properties that have encouraged its application in the treatment of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis. For this specific pathology, chloroquine and its hydroxy-analogue hydroxychloroquine have represented a valid contribution to the available pharmacological tools, since they proved able to slow down the progress of the disease while showing limited toxicity.

Unfortunately, chloroquine is being gradually dismissed from antimalarial therapy and prophylaxis, due to the continuous emergence of chloroquine-resistant Plasmodium falciparum strains. However, the tolerability, low cost, and immunomodulatory properties of chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine are associated with biochemical effects that suggest a potential use in viral infections, some of whose symptoms may result from the inflammatory response. We raise the question of whether this old drug whose parent compound, quinine, was isolated in the late 19th century from the bark of the tropical cinchona tree, may experience a revival in the clinical management of viral diseases of the era of globalisation.  ...

 

 

PDF of the full article and all details can be downloaded here.

 

Might want to stock up on Tonic Water with Quinine.  Gin optional.

 

[John Foote + 1,135]

2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

Might want to stock up on Tonic Water with Quinine.  Gin optional.

 

The gin is definitely not optional.

[Ron Ron + 18]

16 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The purported mechanisms for the operation of HCQ/z is not an immune mechanism aimed at the virus. It makes no difference to the immune attack on the virus.

It does throw nits into the process of virus propagation in cell attachment and its metabolism and its replication in the cell (azithromycin's part). 

The virus is built to eat hemoglobin as well as replicate within lung epithelial cells. That is how it survives in the blood stream and arms itself with porphyrin which is the main attack medium on the lung cells, rather than the ACE2 receptors, which the researchers believe has only a weak interaction with the viral S spike protein, so must use the porphyrin to attach to the cell while transmitting through the ACE2.

The idea for antimalarial drugs (they bind to free heme) is to have them block the virus from stealing the porphyrin dissociated from the hemoglobin. That inhibits virus entry into cells, but not replication of the virus in the lung cells, it inhibits the spread of the virus through the blood stream, prevents heme poisoning, and relieves low oxygenation problems and protects the remaining hemoglobin. The azythromycin slows replication of the virus in the cell, as it trips up the RNA replication, same is it does for bacteria. 

I am pretty sure something better could be done to specifically block this action more thoroughly, but that will take a while, and this combo does work well. 

Hopefully I didn't butcher this.

The source is a couple of Chinese engineers, biomolecular (chem E) and computer scientist who model viral and cell molecules.

Abstract

The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking were used to compare the biological roles of certain proteins of the novel coronavirus. The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could bind to the porphyrin, respectively. At the same time, orf1ab, ORF10, and ORF3a proteins could coordinate attack the heme on the 1-beta chain of hemoglobin to dissociate the iron to form the porphyrin. The attack will cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images. The mechanism also interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress. Favipiravir could inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins. Because the novel coronavirus is dependent on porphyrins, it may originate from an ancient virus. Therefore, this research is of high value to contemporary biological experiments, disease prevention, and clinical treatmentAbstract The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking were used to compare the biological roles of certain proteins of the novel coronavirus. The results showed the ORF8 and surface glycoprotein could bind to the porphyrin, respectively. At the same time, orf1ab, ORF10, and ORF3a proteins could coordinate attack the heme on the 1-beta chain of hemoglobin to dissociate the iron to form the porphyrin. The attack will cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images. The mechanism also interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress. Favipiravir could inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins. Because the novel coronavirus is dependent on porphyrins, it may originate from an ancient virus. Therefore, this research is of high value to contemporary biological experiments, disease prevention, and clinical treatment.

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

AI analysis of patient data predicts which patients are most likely to progress to ARDS and then die. Inflamatory conditions, high ALT and high hemoglobin levels before the disease progresses. Showing the correlation of the speed of virus propagation in the body with the available supply of porphyrin in hemoglobin.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200330152135.htm

Hemoglobin levels drop for ICU patients during their stay with advanced COV 19 disease.

During their stay in ICU, those patients developed more profound, statistically significant decrements in their hemoglobin levels, with ALC and absolute monocyte count (AMC) levels compared to the non‐ICU group. The median nadir ALC was 0.4 × 10⁹/L in the ICU group compared to 1.2 × 10⁹/L in the non‐ICU group (P value <.001), while the median nadir AMC was 0.2 × 10⁹/L in the ICU group, compared to 0.4 × 10⁹/L in the non‐ICU group (P value <.001).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.25774

 

In  short Yoshiro Kamamura, you should pick critical research that means something. Not a cherry picking of bad results from tiny trials. 

If you read the above carefully, you would know to expect that the HCQ/Z would not stop the progress of the disease in late stage patients who are already anemic, and have limited lung function due to damage. They would need additional treatment for the cytokine storm, to elevate their red blood cell counts, and support recovery from organ failure. A super potent targeted antiviral would not do any better either. 

Politically biased criticism of medicines is inexcusable. Shame on you.

HCQ/Z alone is intended for early and intermediate stage treatment. It can't solve the problems of end stage disease because that is no longer a matter the presence of the virus will affect and the viral population would be too large for this drug to have an effect at a tolerable dose. Perhaps it would be useful to adjust the dose to the initial viral count among the critical cases. But nobody has done so to date. For them, the terminal condition would over-ride potential side effects from an increased dose. 

From basic science - molecular structures, the treatment has potential. Clinically - in trials on early and mid stage disease, those taking HCQ/z had a more rapid decline in viral counts than those without, ending up virus free at 1-2 weeks earlier, and had fewer hospitalizations and ICU ventilations or deaths.

Wait, in the clinical sciences when does a model trump even a small clinical trial. I think the appropriate response is we need better quality data.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

Scathing Take-down of the New York Times hit job

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron said:

16 hours ago, 0R0 said:

From basic science - molecular structures, the treatment has potential. Clinically - in trials on early and mid stage disease, those taking HCQ/z had a more rapid decline in viral counts than those without, ending up virus free at 1-2 weeks earlier, and had fewer hospitalizations and ICU ventilations or deaths.

Wait, in the clinical sciences when does a model trump even a small clinical trial. I think the appropriate response is we need better quality data.

Your TDS blinders were on so tight, you managed to avoid reading the last paragraph you quoted. Well done sir. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 minutes ago, Ron Ron said:

Wait, in the clinical sciences when does a model trump even a small clinical trial. I think the appropriate response is we need better quality data.

Of course we do.

And no. A trial has many variables, its relationship to the chemistry physics and physiology is just as often dissociated from other trials. The trials that apply this to those near death are just plain stupid as to informing us of the medication's value at earlier stages. It is nearly as bad as applying it to dead people and complaining that it didn't revive them. 

But it isn't the small trial that we are countering with a structural quantitative model, we are using the model as a guide as to what to expect in clinical trial and it is the clinical trials to date that counter the small trial mentioned, which is quite frankly applied too late, and vs. those conducted but not yet published from NY state's 1000 sample trial. and now 4000 patient application (don't know if they are tracking it as a trial) . 

[Ron Ron + 18]

1 minute ago, 0R0 said:

Of course we do.

And no. A trial has many variables, its relationship to the chemistry physics and physiology is just as often dissociated from other trials. The trials that apply this to those near death are just plain stupid as to informing us of the medication's value at earlier stages. It is nearly as bad as applying it to dead people and complaining that it didn't revive them. 

But it isn't the small trial that we are countering with a structural quantitative model, we are using the model as a guide as to what to expect in clinical trial and it is the clinical trials to date that counter the small trial mentioned, which is quite frankly applied too late, and vs. those conducted but not yet published from NY state's 1000 sample trial. and now 4000 patient application (don't know if they are tracking it as a trial) . 

I have nothing against models. Models are only as good as the data they generate. By stating that we need to wait for additional you are essentially making my point. The small trial is just one of many to come.

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

Mr. Kirkman

I thank you for taking the time to both research and present salient data in a succinct form.

For those unaware, Kamamura employed what is known as the "Gish Gallop", that is, linking to numerous seemingly (or actually) reputable sources in the expectation that the overwhelming amount of data will not be meticulously parsed. The attention-getting "headline" will deliver the desired effect (upon the public perception, that is).

As it has come to be recognized in recent years for what it mainly is - a stomping down of informed, inquisitive discourse - most disinfo agents have moved on to other nefarious techniques.

Apparently, Kamamura did not get the memo.

Honest truth seekers are apt to pursue Mr. Kirkman's path of painstakingly presenting data in a more easily 'ingested' format.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

^

You continue to amaze me, Coffee. How in the world did you know about Gish Gallop?

Are you working for Bernie Sanders? HaHa, just kidding!

[Jab-1970 + 1]

How do we know what you are posting is true? Anything is possible on paper. Numerous people including alot of doctors have used a combination of Hydroxychlorequine and azithromycin treatment in the USA and are claiming success 699 people of 700 saved dr Zelenko in newyork. Dr Joshua Rosenberg     Critical care doctor in Brooklyn says it’s the best most available option

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Careful with the language now...Tom already dinged me for referring to someone as a d*ps**t!😂

(Tom was correct in doing so, but some comments are really annoying...)

[0R0 + 6,251]

Immunity problems with CV19

Apparently the young are not developing substantial amounts of antibodies to the S spike protein of the virus. Only the old and middle aged do. The young apparently fight off the virus with their T cells or some other way. It means that there is no likelihood of a vaccine, besides the lack of success in creating any SARS vaccines. It also means that treatments are far more important than developing vaccines, and Bill Gates' and Nancy Pelosi's plans to create a gravy train out of the vaccine and put their vampire teeth into it is not going to happen with any conventional vaccine. 

Sign me up for monoclonal antibodies. 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3078840/coronavirus-low-antibody-levels-raise-questions-about

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

5 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Mr Kirkman

I thank you for taking the time to both research and present salient data in a succinct form.

Thanks Cofeeguyzz, that was completely unexpected.  A pleasant surprise.

There are actually some really good thinkers here on the forum, along with a small minority of people who try their darndest to obfuscate and complicate.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Careful with the language now...Tom already dinged me for referring to someone as a d*ps**t!😂

(Tom was correct in doing so, but some comments are really annoying...)

Nothing personal Douglas.  I just didn't want to clean up another namecalling pissing contest.

Yes, some comments can be ... irking.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

58 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Nothing personal Douglas.  I just didn't want to clean up another namecalling pissing contest.

Yes, some comments can be ... irking.

I should know better at my age...😖

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

6 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

For those unaware, Kamamura employed what is known as the "Gish Gallop", that is, linking to numerous seemingly (or actually) reputable sources in the expectation that the overwhelming amount of data will not be meticulously parsed. The attention-getting "headline" will deliver the desired effect (upon the public perception, that is).

As it has come to be recognized in recent years for what it mainly is - a stomping down of informed, inquisitive discourse - most disinfo agents have moved on to other nefarious techniques.

 

After spending years on anonymous / chan forums, some of which are intensely shouted down by shills and bots, its nice to see that others are aware of this "shouting down" style of distraction and obfuscation. 

My daily news feed over on 8kun (formerly 8chan) consistently has a gauntlet of repetitive shill bots who copy and paste the exact same crap again and again and again.  On the other hand, this type of repetitive shill bot bombardment makes it easy to filter out these pests in every new "thread". 

On these chan type forums, each "thread" has a maximum of 751 comments.  When 751 comments are reached, a new thread is started, continuing on, again and again.  Current thread at the moment is #11,195 and is entitled 4-10-20 Edition.  Many new threads daily.  Some members (and lurkers) on this forum already know exactly what I am talking about.

[0R0 + 6,251]

14 hours ago, ronwagn said:

On 4/8/2020 at 11:20 PM, Gerry Maddoux said:

HaHaHa, yeah, that would be a heck of a thing!

You probably know, there are several "fed" tumors. And those tumors can be "starved" a bit. 

This viral replication is apparently frenzied, so if any microorganism was susceptible, it would seem to be this one. 

I have heard that fasting is helpful with some illnesses. Do you have any thoughts about that especially as related to covid 19?

Go on a severe keto diet. Always thought sugar and starch was just microbe food. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

14 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I have heard that fasting is helpful with some illnesses. Do you have any thoughts about that especially as related to covid 19?

 

21 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Go on a severe keto diet. Always thought sugar and starch was just microbe food. 

 

Ron, you already know my enthusiasm for the health benefits of fasting for a few days (up to 5 days or so is not a problem), as well as the health benefit of Keto diet.

Fasting done properly induces Autophagy, which can be nothing short of miraculous.  

 

You should find this both interesting and informative:

Does Fasting Kill Viruses -Intermittent Fasting and Viruses

 

A good overall summary of fasting info, for those unfamiliar with the health benefits of fasting:

Fasting Science

 

Also, good, basic info about both fasting and Keto:

Intermittent Fasting on a Keto Diet

 

This is a good explanation of Autophagy.  I highly recommend reading this:

Fasting and Autophagy

 

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

To All ...

A few hours ago, a 2 page abstract was released from the White Wizard - French Dr. Didier Raoult  - describing results from 1,061 patients given hydroxychloroquine/Z pack treatment. Full report expected to be released today (Friday) or Monday.

Highlights ...

1,061 patients with median age 43.6 years old.

973 patients had virological cure within 10 days (92%).

47 more had "prolonged viral carriage at completion of treatment" and 46 of these were PCR-cleared at day 15. (PCR ... Polymerase Chain Reaction).

Of the remaining 46 patients, 5 died (74-95 years old), 10 went to ICU, 31 required more hospitalization.

Of this group, 25 are now cured and 16 are still hospitalized.

Overall, this gives a cure rate of 98%.

Anyone, ANYWHERE, who impedes quick distribution of this treatment should be held criminally liable for some degree of manslaughter and/or civilly vulnerable for the incalculable harm that can now be shown to have been avoided.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

18 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

 

Ron, you already know my enthusiasm for the health benefits of fasting for a few days (up to 5 days or so is not a problem), as well as the health benefit of Keto diet.

Fasting done properly induces Autophagy, which can be nothing short of miraculous.  

 

You should find this both interesting and informative:

Does Fasting Kill Viruses -Intermittent Fasting and Viruses

 

A good overall summary of fasting info, for those unfamiliar with the health benefits of fasting:

Fasting Science

 

Also, good, basic info about both fasting and Keto:

Intermittent Fasting on a Keto Diet

 

This is a good explanation of Autophagy.  I highly recommend reading this:

Fasting and Autophagy

 

That is a great article Tom, thanks. I have been on intermittent fasting for close to two years now, with great results. One or two very minor illnesses in that time. I have rarely had much trouble in the past though. I am much better able to control my weight, and that is a big plus for me! I try to keep all of my eating within an eight hour period daily. One meal a day is better than that I would say, but much more difficult. 

I know you can do much better, so I encourage anyone with questions to message you with questions or start a thread.