China declared war on the US in May 2019. Covid19 is part of that war

[UNC12345 + 171]

4 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Your thinking global warming actually spinning a yarn of yesterdays news. You may wish to update now is not the time for gloating..Swift and decisive actions will soon be undertaken...liberal world socialism will have a in depth hard look taken at . Not a good place to be right now.

If you want me to reply, I'd love to know what your point is, written clearly in the english language as we know it.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

I understand that this is an opportunity, but this is only accidental one, because of current disease.

Good strategy of containment of a very dangerous rival should not be reliant on such unlikely event but bulletproof.

What if people after the first phase of grief and anti-Chinese sentiment will return to buying their cheap stuff.

So it is probable that in 30 years we will live in some kind of global gulag cause anti-Chinese virus sentiment gamble didn't pay off ?

But it will pay off. China will be neutered, their economy shattered, the global economy will bypass them, and the rest of the world will move on.

It’s been roughly 75 years since WW2 ended, and the world still remembers what the Nazis did to the planet.

[Uvuvwevwevwe Onyetenyevwe Ugwemuhwem Osas + 96]

China’s secret internet troll ops

 

[Uvuvwevwevwe Onyetenyevwe Ugwemuhwem Osas + 96]

China should waive US debt for withholding coronavirus insight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrp3XKnEA90

[Hypocrite + 2]

On 4/15/2020 at 3:59 AM, 0R0 said:

 

This video is simply what we have been documenting earlier in the outbreak. The entire thing is absolutely correct. The key research paper from Wuhan Department of Virology Biosafety Lab's Zhi Zhingli discusses precisely what the video says. We discussed it on these forums. All in fine detail. This video has very little we didn't know two months ago

This is TRUTH.

WHO is lies, an arm of the China ministry of propaganda. Chinese official statements are lies. The CCP is soliciting mass coverups by social media as well as its normal clients in the mainstream press. 

This is factual. What you get from the mainstream and official organizations is a well paid for narrative from the CCP. 

If you are disparaging of this video, other than its terrible soundtrack, you are aligning with the CCP. You are revealing yourself to be a Communist agent.

You are obviously in here as a Chinese agent. The Epoch Times has held an anti CCP reporting stance for ages and has been a major source  for those opposing communism. Your post is in extremely bad taste with a creepy humor in an extremely serious situation where the Communist Party of China has committed heinous crimes against the whole of humanity. 

Shame on you.

Because they didn't test people who didn't make it to the hospital. Appx 160K in Wuhan are dead beyond seasonal trend according to Cell phone account abandonments and just under 100K in excess operations of Wuhan crematoriums and urn deliveries. 

 

You think I’m a Chinese agent? You call that thinking? Put the bottle down you must be drunk or in early cognitive decline. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:11 AM, Robert Thomas 2 said:

Thanks T as always you're keeping me well informed. I'm just curious as to why the death rate might be so low in china compared to Europe.

I understand their lockdowns were more severe and their pop is a bit younger.

Especially considering the spread in Italy and U.K. perhaps seafood markets aren't the only places where it's being picked up.

 

or Chinese folk just like the tourism there and I'm a silly cracker.

Still the spread seems a bit unnatural/fast

Or, perhaps the Chinese are simply lying about their numbers...🤔

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:13 AM, Jan van Eck said:

China is not paying, and will not pay, one thin dime to anybody for "damages."   Not going to happen.

They will have court rulings against them in civil court. The SOE properties abroad will start being seized for damages. It will drag on, but as it proceeds, the entire sorry saga of the coverup and lies about the virus will be public viewing around the world. Years and years of the CCP's shenanigans, suppression of doctors, cooked numbers, disappeared records and people. It will be a never ending procession painting China's government and the CCP in the worst light. They will reach some sort of secret reparations arrangement. 

While China may never willingly pay a dime, much of what the SOE sector and PLA and the CCP and its leadership owns outside the country will be at risk to be lost. Having CCP members on a Chines company's board may cause it to be considered a State controlled enterprise and lumped in with SOEs. 

As to conspiracy theory, the CIA and Dr. Gottlieb (ex FDA) are on the bandwagon of the Wuhan Biosafety virology lab as a possible source of the pandemic. Gottlieb specifically went to the trouble of pointing out its reputation for both being particularly ramshackle in safety and equipment, while indulging in dreadfully dangerous recombinant and forced cross species jumps of pathogenic viruses. The US funding for some of the research was withdrawn because it was considered too dangerous. 

It remains in question how well Western companies will resist the threats and subsidies China will offer against withdrawal. But if Amazon had to remove "made in China" from product descriptions, then believe that people are making an effort to avoid Chinese products. Many will return them when they show up at home with a "made in China" label. Amazon will be under pressure to seek new sources of goods POST HASTE. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 4/15/2020 at 10:31 AM, Rob Plant said:

I actually didn't think this was possible before C-19 as I always believed that consumerism and simple economics would always win out.

However the general feeling of a backlash with all things China in the UK is astonishing at present.If that lasts (and that's a big if) you might just be right Douglas. There are hundreds of thousands of families that are already directly affected by C-19 in the UK and none of them would buy anything Chinese out of choice.

I do however believe that most of S.E.Asia will not stop buying Chinese products due to the political influence China has over the region.

While the governments in SE Asia are being wooed by the CCP, the people are not feeling it. Especially not now. There is a long history of tension among all China's neighbors - direct and across the S China sea from it. We will have to see how badly the pandemic affects things in Viet Nam Malaysia Indonesia, Philippines. How many get ill and die. The one plus of not being rich countries is that the weak and ill octogenarians have died already, so the Wuhan virus can't kill them again. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 4/15/2020 at 6:14 PM, surrept33 said:

If there is blowback from coronavirus, it seems probable that it would be hard to significantly reduce exposure to China for most countries, especially when there is also a protectionist wave going on elsewhere like in the United States. Keep in mind that China also imports vast quantities of natural resources and other intermediate economic goods from elsewhere. It's become the #1 trading partner for most of the world.  This isn't going to change overnight.

Largest trading partners per country US vs China:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-u-s-worlds-trading-partner/

2000, in the eve of China joining the WTO:

2018:

It will require a substantial investment in duplicating sole sourced production out of China. But that has to be done anyway. Otherwise you can't buy business interruption insurance, and without that, your interest rates on financing will be several % higher. One component sole sourced from China and the actuaries will bump your rates for your production by an order of magnitude.  Less so if you sole source elsewhere, but sole source is over, particularly from China. 

Second. is that you are thinking of China's trade dependence as a source of strength going into the  future. It isn't. You need a deep sea navy of size to maintain trade. China (and Russia and Iran among others) rely on the US navy to do it. Without the US trade structure from Bretton Woods to support all of global trade militarily, there will have to be a resumption of the Imperial structure of trade. That means that countries don't outbid each other and don't just cut trade agreements, they offer trades of protection for monopoly access. The form alliances to share the burden of patrolling the sea lanes. Then they join in countries who's resources they need but can't afford to pay the going price for their commodities. They colonize them. 

That combination of actions got China into its century of humiliation. They had to sell off control of key ports in order to secure the shipping going in and out of them by other empires. Those were the terms of trade imposed on those that did not have a strong navy. Japan could not bid for those port contracts so when they had to secure their supply chains, they just took them because they had the big navy and the big boats to do it.  

As it becomes clear that the US will not patrol the oceans for free but solely for an advantageous mercantile arrangement, China will have to figure out how to retain access to its suppliers and markets while having no deep sea naval assets to offer. Britain and Japan can secure their trade routes and cut deals with their suppliers to obtain monopolies on the distribution of their goods. China can offer development funds. Britain and Japan can blockade outgoing shipments headed to China as part of putting together a deal. China can only blockade itself. 

Germany needs to decide quickly what to do to secure its suppliers and access to its markets. France can help and together they can build a navy of size with Frenchmen to man the ships. China could have built a navy of substance, but is too late to the race now.

China has many light boats designed for aggression against the US navy, that they keep imagining is a threat to them. Their boats are built to deliver their weapons, nothing more. They generally lack armor and light on defenses. They are not built to survive as they would have to in convoy duty protecting shipping. They don't realize that those US ships are there to protect the most lucrative trade routes ever created. Trade routes that built the splendors of London and Paris for two centuries. The American naval and air bases around the pacific rim were not built by the US, they were built by the Dutch, Brits, French, Spanish, Germans, and by Japan. The end of WWII simply had them handed to the US, as it was the only one who could afford to run them after the war, and half of them were captured by the US and Australia from Japan. They were never there to attack China, humiliate it or blockade it.  It was always there to protect trade. It was doubly there to protect Chinese trade from the 1990s onwards when its volumes grew by leaps and bounds. The West generally makes $2 from every $1 of Chinese exports, often more, very much so in the US. Obviously the CCP hardliners and generals don't understand that. They could only conceive of this as an offensive threat against them. 

They may well have to experience what it looks like when the Brits and Japanese play "keep away" with China's oil shipments. Or discover that orders from myriad countries have evaporated suddenly because they signed exclusive trade agreements with the US Japan Australia and UK or France and Germany, not because they got such a good deal, but because it was the only deal that would keep the flow into their ports. 

Controlling the S China sea does not make China any less vulnerable to having its  trade intercepted at will by whomever does not need China. All the US has to do is turn away and let it happen. Britain and in a way the Dutch became empires at first by plundering Spanish shipping. Those funds built the ships that brought the East India companies to penetrate all of Asia. They started with piracy.  

The same situation applies to Germany if they don't figure their way into a naval power. 

[Marcin2 + 726]

@0R0Again you used thesis that world trade is reliant on US Navy.

The only scenario I see it works is that US Navy becomes pirates like Germany during WW2 and starts sinking merchant marine: but in that case we have 60 minutes of nuclear war and everything gets to business as usual After another 25 years.

This is the only scenario were world is „dependent” on US Navy.

Tell me which state actor would go against merchant navy: NONE that counts.

Non state actors do not even have  Guided Missile corvettes or frigates, how they can disrupt global trade ?

So I am still to hear the first argument to back this thesis.

[Marcin2 + 726]

On decoupling manufacturing out of China.

I think current trade tariffs are very good incentives to move at least US consumer centric supply chains out of China. How it plays out we would have clear picture in a year or two.

I think total dependence on Chinese manufacturing gives this country too much economic and political leverage, also in US.

I have not seen any report how it would be possible to move lets say 30 or 40% of global supply chains out of China, but I think 10-15% is within reach in 5 years.

I really like Japanese initiative to pay companies to move manufacturing out of China.

US should also do this but with much more funding. If 2 maybe 4 trillion dollars would be thrown into sink hole this year I think 200 billion of constructive funding would be a  good start.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

‘Egregious’ And ‘Audacious’: CNN’s Big China Screw Up Is Part Of A Much More Insidious Problem

CNN is far from alone when it comes to boosting Chinese propaganda, but it’s home to the most recent example of American media pulling for China in the past few months.

The network experienced almost immediate backlash April 13 when it published a story in which the main source was a press release from the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

Stated clearly: CNN’s article reporting the Chinese Navy “has done a much better job controlling coronavirus than the US Navy” could hardly be told apart from the PLA press release it cited. It was an almost exact replica.

“There is a word for anyone who takes the word of an authoritarian regime, with a long record of lying, whether it was President Trump praising China’s clearly flawed response to Coronavirus or U.S. media repeating clearly bogus PLA talking points: Fool,” Peter Singer, a strategist and senior fellow at New America told the Daily Caller.

CNN’s propaganda push was “incredibly irresponsible” and “audacious,” Rebeccah Heinrichs at the Hudson Institute, added.

“It is not an exaggeration to say that it is Chinese communist party propaganda,” Heinrichs said of the article. “While we’re in the middle of this pandemic, there’s multiple things going on at the same time. One of them is a fight for clarity and accurate information. And we know that the Chinese government is still propagating false information and so for American media to not look at anything that comes out of China very skeptically … is so irresponsible.”

“I mean the job of the media is to expose what is true and they are very hyperactive on making sure they do that. You can be hypercritical of the U.S. government, but then to turn around and to copy and paste Chinese communist party propaganda when the stakes are so high is just incredibly audacious and it’s shameful.”  ...

 

[LiamP + 168]

Another perspective on the blame China narrative, one I happen to think is closer to the truth...

So, primarily a massive case of looking for a scapegoat to deflect from our western governments' botched responses, but on a deeper level just another vehicle for some CCP bashing and general my ideology is better than yours banter. The latter I have no real problem with - I have no love for China (well I suppose I should have a little bit since it did produce the ancestors of my Chinese Malaysian wife!) or the CCP and I'm all for defending our western ideology as it clearly is superior to any other!  But the former, all this scapegoating, I find embarrassing and worse than that it could stop us learning the lessons that need to be learned on how to respond to a pandemic.

You simply need to look at the timeline of action of the US, UK, France, Italy, etc etc governments compared to first infections and the available information. Those hardest hit by this are the ones where the governments buried their heads in the sand, downplayed the threat, feared being seen to overreact, and generally wasted time until the virus was at thousands of cases and it was too late to effectively get on top of it. And surprise surprise they are the nations where the blame China rhetoric from the governments is strongest.

If you dont trust China's numbers, fine - who does, just look at S Korea, or Taiwan, Austraila, NZ, Singapore, etc. All these nations had exactly the same info from China and the WHO as we in the west did, and even less time due to proximity and travel volume to/from China, yet they all managed to get on top of the spread far more effectively than us. Even poorer countries in the region like Malaysia, Indonesia whom you'd expect to be less effective have done much better than us.

Why, because they acted fast and effectively. In many cases these countries havent even needed harsh lockdowns as they got on top of things so quickly. Rather, hard lockdown is necessitated by early inaction leading to total loss of control of the stuation. The Asia/pacific region all learned lessons from SARS1 and had systems, procedures and infrastructure in place ready to trigger at a moments notice. I can only hope we learn the lesson this time around for the next pandemic, but I fear this desire to just blame China because it's easier will prevent these lessons from being learned.

I'm not suggesting they are entirely blame free - they clearly did attempt a bit of a cover up initially. On the other hand they published the genome of the damn virus in mid January! But primary blame for the situations in the west is on the governments here and their woefully late actions. Even more silly in my opinion is the conspiracy theory it was a deliberate act by the CCP. I mean what on gods earth does China stand to gain from that??! We mainly buy stuff from China, so making everyone sick and our economies crash so we stop buying stuff from China, and worse increasing anti China sentiment so much that it may be long lasting or even permanent, well that has to be the dumbest shot in the foot in history. If we're to believe the CCP are all powerful, in bed with the NWO, illuminati, lizard men, etc and engineering the world to their liking, then surely they should be credited with a bit more brains than this?

Meanwhile I'm happy enough to be in Norway currently. Some western nations have acted fast enough and effectively enough for their own outbreaks. Figures for the country as a whole show the curve almost but not quite flattened, dominated by Oslo stats where the action came arguably a little late, but here where I am the curve has been China flat for a week or two, Ro in the basement somewhere, a quarter of people in hospital compared to the peak, and we're starting controlled opening up next week. Sweden on the other hand, with their half-arsed strategy, if you can even call it that, now approaching 10x the fatalities of Norway (was 7x when I spoke about Sweden about a week ago in another thread) and having their worst days right now.

Edited April 17, 2020 by LiamP

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

It remains in question how well Western companies will resist the threats and subsidies China will offer against withdrawal. But if Amazon had to remove "made in China" from product descriptions, then believe that people are making an effort to avoid Chinese products. Many will return them when they show up at home with a "made in China" label. Amazon will be under pressure to seek new sources of goods POST HASTE

I wonder how far Jeff will go.  I'd put my money on them putting banners on "Made in China" goods pages to advise that that alone is not a good enough reason for returns.  It would be terribly risky though as it would give the image of Jeff and company being dollar bound instead of giving back to the nation that made him rich.  I'm not saying that is fair, but Americans can be testy about such things in times of crisis.

[Marcin2 + 726]

Re CoVID19 in military. The major problem as I see it is how partisan US became. For me it looks like Shia and Shiite Muslims , they hate infidels but more their fallen brethen. CNN and Fox News are probably extreme points on the spectrum. My experience with Fix News was very bad, I turned it on and I felt like I am watching Polish communist TV again, the way presenters behave, their beeline of going towards the only faithful opinions. 
This polarization is polluting our worldview. My wife recently told me that I am pro communist China when we talked about CoVID19 response and maybe it is true, contact with skewed pro Trump opinions probably also created my bias.

But I think that military should be top secret. All United States goes down due to irresponsible chaotic policies so US Navy soldiers young and healthy men do not require special treatment. In worst scenario I do not think any of them would die. Captain was heroic and humanitarian but he was a bad soldier cause decreased morale on his ship and in Navy by making his panic mode public.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

The Captain got relieved for leaking to the press.... He was wrong to do this and he paid the price.

He did not follow protocol in this situation, or the chain of command.,You do not want someone like this commanding a nuclear carrier.

He may have felt that he was doing the right thing, but he knew the risks.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

23 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

The Captain got relieved for leaking to the press.... He was wrong to do this and he paid the price.

He did not follow protocol in this situation, or the chain of command.,You do not want someone like this commanding a nuclear carrier.

He may have felt that he was doing the right thing, but he knew the risks.

You know, somebody was responsible for promoting this guy and giving him command.  Whatever.  But as Captain, he should absolutely have known better than to declare, by any means, including the leak of classified military communications, that all resources of the U.S. Military had been depleted, that they were defeated or heading for defeat, and that they needed help from without.  Say what you will (not you, Douglas), would this commander leak a document telling outsiders that the ship had taken enemy fire and that, say, catapults 3 and 4 were inop?  I don't think so.  He would have soldiered on.  Or would he?  If not, then he would have been removed and replaced post haste as well.  I feel for every man and woman on that ship, but that's part of the contract and the oath.  It IS still a volunteer service, if I'm not mistaken.

[Robert Thomas 2 + 10]

7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Or, perhaps the Chinese are simply lying about their numbers...🤔

Even so, as with S. Korea, after lockdown surely it only takes a few people still with it for it to start spreading again then.

I don't no a thing about viruses but I've heard talk about it being seasonal being a factor.

Surely china though, the enemy of Donald trump, my enemys enemy is my friend, wouldn't lie about something like that.

But if it did I think we should all start following their lead, starting with treatment of Taiwan, muslims,  Christians.

Perhaps what we all need is a cultural revolution.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

What?

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

8 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Or, perhaps the Chinese are simply lying about their numbers...🤔

Coronavirus: China's Wuhan city revises up death toll by 1,290 - a 50% increase

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-chinas-wuhan-city-revises-up-death-toll-by-1-290-a-50-increase-11974466

And they're still miles off!!

Edited April 17, 2020 by Rob Plant

[M_Ali + 32]

On 4/12/2020 at 8:21 PM, Ward Smith said:

First watch this video

 

What a load of Xenophobic and anti Chinese propaganda under the disguise of pseudo-investigative Journalism?

Dr Sean Lin, the Chinese guy (probably a defector) a former lab director at Walter Reed Biological Weapons lab (US largest such facility) makes for a very credible, objective unbiased expert views!!!!

Chinese American Columnist: "The CCP is the Virus that needs to be eradicated" makes it clear he is not a big fan of Mao or Xi.

The American General a military graduate of the school of General Custard not so fund of foreign savages articulating his Julies Cesar's view of a dwindling Roman Empire.

The Texan Attorney filing for a $20 Trillion law suit against CCP.......laughable indeed in the face of US national Debt of over $23 Trillion, a large chunk of which is owed to CCP; no doubt the minds and spirits of Adam Smith, Carl Marx & Chairman Mao are totally in disarray and the spirits of Founding Fathers are wondering what the fuck went wrong?

I'd tell them FedRes, Money Printing, Treasury bonds & Debt Manufacturing went wrong. 

This investigative report is nearly 70 years old; the ideological mantra it tries to portray is an old anti communist propaganda cliche dating back to post WWII McCarthysim, portrayed on large movie screens across America for mass consumption while viewers stuffing their faces with popcorn. No one played and portrayed this role better and more effectively than the good old Cowboy Duke himself in his Hollywood war movies out in the East fighting the evil communists, so much so that his die hard fanatic fans even lobbied congress to give him medal of honor for his heroic roles in the propaganda war efforts (Only in America);

"I got nothing against Chinese people, it's the Communist Party of China that I hate."

Same message is coming load and clear from the above journalistic montage of avalanches of world media news, views and data about the current global pandemic to reconfirm an old ideological dogma close to Uncle Sam's heart and mind. 

Finishing the montage with self-assuring and romantic panoramic and close up views of mammoth symbolic carved rocks and columns of cultural triumphalism, in the Capital of the Empire reassuring its audience Uncle Sam will contain and prevail over all contagions biological and political. 

There appears recently a lot of all American patriotic Anti CCP sentiments, hot air and BuLlshit analysis by Trumpian Apprentice wane be against China's supposed covering up of the "Wuhan Virus" outbreak?  

I suggest these guys search for the following issues in relation to one another to get an opposing "Conspiracy Theory" about the origin of the virus.

Event 201, A response practice on a potential global Virus Outbreak Scenario, held curtsy of B&L Gates Foundation, UN, WB & big Pharma  on 18 October 2019 in NY

World 7th Army Game held in Wuhan on 18 October 2019, US a sports superpower gaining 0 Gold Medal finishing behind Namibia and Tunisia!!!!! Were they real athletes or they were on a different mission in Wuhan touring the city & the wet market too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games

Fort Derick, The US Militarily Biological Weapons Lab shutdown due to multiple serious safety protocol volition in 2019.

Dr Redfield, head of  CDC admitting to mistaking Coronavirus cases for Flu virus early in the flu season in the US during a congressional hearing. 

Five Strains of the CV found in US only one found in China!

I remain skeptical until further clarification not judgmental, I'm not a CCP affiliate member nor a supporter.

I love Plato, but I love the Truth more - Aristotle

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 “I love Plato, but I love the Truth more - Aristotle”

Maybe you should try writing some then! Just a suggestion.

[M_Ali + 32]

47 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

 “I love Plato, but I love the Truth more - Aristotle”

Maybe you should try writing some then! Just a suggestion.

You won't be able to take it if it's not to your liking.

Psychologists call it Cognitive Dissonance. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

44 minutes ago, M_Ali said:

You won't be able to take it if it's not to your liking.

Psychologists call it Cognitive Dissonance. 

In regards to yourself, we simply call it biased arrogance....and leave the psychologists out of it.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, M_Ali said:

There appears recently a lot of all American patriotic Anti CCP sentiments, hot air and BuLlshit analysis by Trumpian Apprentice wane be against China's supposed covering up of the "Wuhan Virus" outbreak?  

I'm not American, Repuplican or a Trump supporter but I do dislike to my core everything the CCP administration stands for. Human rights, animal rights, pollution, 1984 type of control over its people etc.etc. where is freedom of speech? where is freedom full stop??? Where can Chinese people hold anti CCP rallies and question what the CCP's policies are without fear of jail time or worse?

I have absolutely nothing against the Chinese people and have many I would call as friends in Shanghai and Ningbo, but the CCP stinks!

Make no mistake this virus is man made and it was made in that bio lab in Wuhan, I have very little doubt. This is already a cover up.

If you think that anti CCP sentiment is strictly on N.American ground then think again pal! There is a backlash of all things Chinese in my country like I have never known before. Most people are not stupid and the world will not forgive the CCP for unleashing this virus upon it.

Come back at me if you wish, originally I had a very open mind to what occurred in Wuhan, I have seen and heard enough over the past weeks/months that nothing will change my view on this now.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Rob Plant