A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[LiamP + 168]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:05 AM, Coffeeguyzz said:

Interesting that this thread is still running as of late Sunday (East Coast, USA) April 26.

Tokyo, roughly comparable in size and density to NYC just hit the 100 mark for deaths attributed to COVID 19.

There is no lockdown in Tokyo.

NYC, in contrast, just passed the 12,000 mark in COVID- related fatalities ... a rate 120 times  higher than Tokyo's.

 

Hmmmm ....

Maybe the Japanese are lying too!  Or is this a suggestion that NYC didn't need a lockdown because Tokyo didnt and they're just fine? In any case, respectfully, you're missing the fundamental difference between Japan and NYC, or rather it's the difference between Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Australia, NZ, etc, i.e. most of East Asia/Pacific, and UK, Italy, France, Spain, USA, etc, i.e. much of the West. That is that the former nations managed to get on top of the virus and avoid altogether outbreaks on the scale of the latter nations.

That was done primarily by early action, like on the day of the first confirmed infection, or even before, and also with rigorous contact tracing, testing and quarantining/isolation, public sanitation and mask wearing. I was in Singapore mid Jan to mid Feb when it started there. Bear in mind this country has 6 million crammed on a tiny island almost universally dependant on mass public transport (arguably the number 1 spreader) - they would have been ravaged if they didn't stamp on it fast - whole island infected in weeks and health system on its knees.

Instead it was clear just from the local reporting and data that an effective machinery was set in action. They managed to suppress spread from day 1 to only a manageable trickle. It was almost plateaued around 100 cases shortly after I left and for a long time afterwards whilst it started exploding in Europe and the US. You'll see a huge recent spike in Singapore data if you look now and think their efforts failed, but it's not quite true - what they have done is overlooked the population of migrant workers largely living in multi-person dorms. 95+% of this surge in cases is in these dorms. Fortunately for SG this population largely doesnt use public mass transport and doesn't interact too much with the rest of the population so it's almost contained, but not 100% and they recently locked down as a precaution. Contact tracing and quarantining machinery still in action and effective and they have already passed the peak of this surge and avoided spread in the general population.

So SG dropped the ball for a while, otherwise their numbers would have them still the shining example to the world of how to respond to a pandemic, they perhaps still are, but S Korea, Japan, Aus, NZ etc etc all also show how it should be done and most have avoided lockdowns and major spread altogether.

Meanwhile countries like UK, France, Italy, US, all wasted so much time in the early days, literally scratching their heads doing almost nothing for up to six weeks after first confirmed cases. When spread rate has number of cases doubling approx every three days, as was the case, even one week of inaction is suicidal, never mind a month or more. I remember one of Boris' first addresses to the UK - he was describing the phases of the Epidemic - phase 1: containment, phase 2: suppression... or something like that, and in that same address pretty much said sorry folks the boat has well and truly sailed on phase 1, not a chance, so we're straight onto phase 2! I shook my head and was glad I dont live there anymore!

Lockdown then becomes a last resort of the desperate, necessary if only to try to keep the health systems from buckling. By this stage the actual effectiveness of a lockdown is dramatically reduced almost to the point of uselessness, which is why it has taken so very long to even show signs of 'flattening the curve' in hard hit countries, never mind actually getting the infections to a manageable level, and all at such a high cost of life and economic impact. If they had acted early and effectively, there's no reason at all that a country like the UK couldn't be looking at numbers like S Korea. So you're right - NYC probably didn't need a lockdown, but had to have done things very differently to have avoided it.

On 4/29/2020 at 8:04 PM, Eyes Wide Open said:

And then there is Sweden...

Yeah, so hows it going in Sweden? First thing you need to note when looking at Sweden is their response isn't so much a considered strategy as literally all they could legally do. Liberty is so well protected there that the government has essentially no emergency powers and couldn't do anything without getting new legislation through parliament even if they thought it was a good idea. So they have done nothing, spun it as 'treating the citizens as adults' and 'trusting the citizens to take personal responsibility', issued some guidelines to please kinda do what other countries are doing anyway, and called it a day and patted themselves on the back. Racing towards 'herd immunity' has never been their strategy.

How's it going? Well as I write they are now soaring past 11x the fatalities of neighbours Norway when they have just double the population and all other factors social, demographic, cultural pretty similar. Or triple the rest of Scandinavia combined. Not only that, but showing no real signs of slowing down - they posted their second highest ever (second only by a few cases) daily number of infections today! They knew they needed to protect the elderly with this kind of strategy, but have failed - Stockholm care homes have been ravaged.

Norway and Denmark now opening up - schools and most businesses now open in Norway, in fact we're in a similar status to Sweden now, just remaining restrictions on large gatherings. Only difference is our infections are under control and declining whilst they have lots of dead people and infection still increasing.

But they saved their economy right? Not really. People took it upon themselves to withdraw and distance. Businesses down 50% or more, some business owners saying they would prefer to have been shut down as at least that would have likely meant some financial assistance, but since they are officially open they dont have any and have lost business anyway. Finance minister predicted up to 10% GDP contraction for 2020 which I think is even worse than US prediction, and unemployment up even more, and they will follow the rest of the world into recession.

Summary - a leaderless impotent response that preserved neither life nor the economy. Individual freedom taken to the point of absurdity. Well done! Believe me, if you want to look to others to learn how to respond to a pandemic both medically and economically, you need look much further East than Sweden (so far east that some of you are looking west :))! I really hope our governments do that so we dont suffer so much next time, but I fear the let's just blame China narrative could prevent lessons being learned.

Edited May 1, 2020 by LiamP

[Jim Profit + 46]

Surmortality in NYC between Mar. 11 and  Apr. 25  : 309 % ..
That means that you were 3 more times likely to die in relation to COVID-19 that every other death causes combined..

Despite the measure that were taken, 20,000 deaths for now..To be compared the the annual death toll of the seasonal flu: 2,000 ... ten times in a shorter period.

The average annual death toll of the seasonal flu in the US: 40,000.
 

[Jim Profit + 46]

Social distanciation is nothing new, it was used in the U.S. during the Spanish flu..
We have historical data showing that it definitively helps..

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/

[Jim Profit + 46]

Regarding Tokyo ..

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/-covid-19-did-not-change-much-in-japan-s-daily-life-/1819015

"It is a part of the Japanese culture to wear masks and maintain “utmost” cleanliness during the routine life, so COVID-19 pandemic did not change much in the country."

“Human-to-human interaction has minimized,” he said. “It is people who have imposed a lockdown on themselves not the government because they are careful and take precautions on time.”

[Jim Profit + 46]

[Radha + 262]

Jim, you might want to read this article and reconsider the official death rates

https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/

[Jim Profit + 46]

1 hour ago, Radha said:

Jim, you might want to read this article and reconsider the official death rates

https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/

Data don't support the idea that official covid 19 death rates are overestimated.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/04/14/underreporting-of-covid-19-deaths-in-the-us-and-europe/

"However, many people who died and had COVID-19 symptoms - at home, in a nursing home, or a long-term care facility - are not being tested."
"This problem is magnified in the country’s epicenter, New York City. City officials say they currently don’t have the testing capacity to include large numbers of people dying in their homes.  An estimated 180-195 people per day may be dying in their homes from COVID-19 in New York City, and go uncounted as victims of the coronavirus as they haven’t gotten a laboratory test confirmation."

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 4/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, ronwagn said:

I was in favor of both countries shutting down TRAVEL, especially inbound. Not shutting down the economy for long, and have been saying to ease the restrictions for weeks. 

"Despite reports to the contrary, Sweden is paying heavily for its decision not to lockdown. As of today, 2462 people have died there, a much higher number than the neighboring countries of Norway (207), Finland (206) or Denmark (443). The United States made the correct decision!"

 

Do you get tired having to change your opinions all the time?  Orange man says shutdown good...

@Tom Kirkman

Edited May 1, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

12 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Do you get tired having to change your opinions all the time?  Orange man says shutdown good...

@Tom Kirkman

I disagree with with the shutdowns, and I disagree with Trump that the shutdown is good.  I believe that Trump was misled by Fauci and Brix as "experts".   Medical Ivory Towers are not suitable to real life.

It seems that Fauci, Brix, Gates and others WANT the economy crushed, so the U.N. and WHO can step in and replace Capitalism with Socialism.

Look at how California, New York, Michigan, etc are going all out control freaks by their elected "leaders" who now relish their roles as MASTERS over citizens, and shredding the Constitition and shredding the Bill of Rights.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

I disagree with with the shutdowns, and I disagree with Trump that the shutdown is good.  I believe that Trump was misled by Fauci and Brix as "experts".   Medical Ivory Towers are not suitable to real life.

It seems that Fauci, Brix, Gates and others WANT the economy crushed, so the U.N. and WHO can step in and replace Capitalism with Socialism.

Look at how California, New York, Michigan, etc are going all out control freaks by their elected "leaders" who now relish their roles as MASTERS over citizens, and shredding the Constitition and shredding the Bill of Rights.

I said a long time ago that the virus is spreading socialism.

People are learning that the owners of the "means of production" don't give a shit about you. CEO's in skyscraper corner offices will let you die for their bonuses.

When the companies need help they will suck up tax dollars for "relief."   "Job creators" haha!

[0R0 + 6,251]

6 hours ago, LiamP said:

Maybe the Japanese are lying too!  Or is this a suggestion that NYC didn't need a lockdown because Tokyo didnt and they're just fine? In any case, respectfully, you're missing the fundamental difference between Japan and NYC, or rather it's the difference between Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Australia, NZ, etc, i.e. most of East Asia/Pacific, and UK, Italy, France, Spain, USA, etc, i.e. much of the West. That is that the former nations managed to get on top of the virus and avoid altogether outbreaks on the scale of the latter nations.

That was done primarily by early action, like on the day of the first confirmed infection, or even before, and also with rigorous contact tracing, testing and quarantining/isolation, public sanitation and mask wearing. I was in Singapore mid Jan to mid Feb when it started there. Bear in mind this country has 6 million crammed on a tiny island almost universally dependant on mass public transport (arguably the number 1 spreader) - they would have been ravaged if they didn't stamp on it fast - whole island infected in weeks and health system on its knees.

Instead it was clear just from the local reporting and data that an effective machinery was set in action. They managed to suppress spread from day 1 to only a manageable trickle. It was almost plateaued around 100 cases shortly after I left and for a long time afterwards whilst it started exploding in Europe and the US. You'll see a huge recent spike in Singapore data if you look now and think their efforts failed, but it's not quite true - what they have done is overlooked the population of migrant workers largely living in multi-person dorms. 95+% of this surge in cases is in these dorms. Fortunately for SG this population largely doesnt use public mass transport and doesn't interact too much with the rest of the population so it's almost contained, but not 100% and they recently locked down as a precaution. Contact tracing and quarantining machinery still in action and effective and they have already passed the peak of this surge and avoided spread in the general population.

So SG dropped the ball for a while, otherwise their numbers would have them still the shining example to the world of how to respond to a pandemic, they perhaps still are, but S Korea, Japan, Aus, NZ etc etc all also show how it should be done and most have avoided lockdowns and major spread altogether.

Meanwhile countries like UK, France, Italy, US, all wasted so much time in the early days, literally scratching their heads doing almost nothing for up to six weeks after first confirmed cases. When spread rate has number of cases doubling approx every three days, as was the case, even one week of inaction is suicidal, never mind a month or more. I remember one of Boris' first addresses to the UK - he was describing the phases of the Epidemic - phase 1: containment, phase 2: suppression... or something like that, and in that same address pretty much said sorry folks the boat has well and truly sailed on phase 1, not a chance, so we're straight onto phase 2! I shook my head and was glad I dont live there anymore!

Lockdown then becomes a last resort of the desperate, necessary if only to try to keep the health systems from buckling. By this stage the actual effectiveness of a lockdown is dramatically reduced almost to the point of uselessness, which is why it has taken so very long to even show signs of 'flattening the curve' in hard hit countries, never mind actually getting the infections to a manageable level, and all at such a high cost of life and economic impact. If they had acted early and effectively, there's no reason at all that a country like the UK couldn't be looking at numbers like S Korea. So you're right - NYC probably didn't need a lockdown, but had to have done things very differently to have avoided it.

Yeah, so hows it going in Sweden? First thing you need to note when looking at Sweden is their response isn't so much a considered strategy as literally all they could legally do. Liberty is so well protected there that the government has essentially no emergency powers and couldn't do anything without getting new legislation through parliament even if they thought it was a good idea. So they have done nothing, spun it as 'treating the citizens as adults' and 'trusting the citizens to take personal responsibility', issued some guidelines to please kinda do what other countries are doing anyway, and called it a day and patted themselves on the back. Racing towards 'herd immunity' has never been their strategy.

How's it going? Well as I write they are now soaring past 11x the fatalities of neighbours Norway when they have just double the population and all other factors social, demographic, cultural pretty similar. Or triple the rest of Scandinavia combined. Not only that, but showing no real signs of slowing down - they posted their second highest ever (second only by a few cases) daily number of infections today! They knew they needed to protect the elderly with this kind of strategy, but have failed - Stockholm care homes have been ravaged.

Norway and Denmark now opening up - schools and most businesses now open in Norway, in fact we're in a similar status to Sweden now, just remaining restrictions on large gatherings. Only difference is our infections are under control and declining whilst they have lots of dead people and infection still increasing.

But they saved their economy right? Not really. People took it upon themselves to withdraw and distance. Businesses down 50% or more, some business owners saying they would prefer to have been shut down as at least that would have likely meant some financial assistance, but since they are officially open they dont have any and have lost business anyway. Finance minister predicted up to 10% GDP contraction for 2020 which I think is even worse than US prediction, and unemployment up even more, and they will follow the rest of the world into recession.

Summary - a leaderless impotent response that preserved neither life nor the economy. Individual freedom taken to the point of absurdity. Well done! Believe me, if you want to look to others to learn how to respond to a pandemic both medically and economically, you need look much further East than Sweden (so far east that some of you are looking west :))! I really hope our governments do that so we dont suffer so much next time, but I fear the let's just blame China narrative could prevent lessons being learned.

You are presuming that the appropriate goal is containment and suppression of the virus. It is when you don't know a thing about it and are not ready, as was the situation in Feb. when Japan HK Singapore Korea and Taiwan did their SARS exercise as planned. 

Till the Oxford report from Nial Ferguson, the general direction in NW Europe and US was to achieve herd immunity and conduct contact tracing and testing. Which Germans did successfully, Dutch did so initially but lost it later, and everyone else failed as only Germans had their own test supplies. Thus had state health departments tracking the contacts of the passengers from Wuhan and other Chinese cities. But there was no testing available because the CDC wouldn't do it right and wouldn't let anyone else do it either. 

That herd immunity target is still the correct one, just that the R0 calculated from the misleading Chinese data was incorrect and was highly dependent on high transmission population clusters (schools, public transport, downtown bars) thus R0 correlates positively with population density and inversely with median age of the population. Thus the dense cities, and Paris suburbs and NYC are as dense as they get, had extremely rapid spread that nobody knew to expect till it was well underway.

% positive 45% of tests in NYC (incl. NJ). 

The plateau at the top of the fever temp reading rate ends at 3.16 at the shelter in place order in NYC. The ramp up starts 2.29. California shelter in place was 3.9 initial and got tighter the next 2 weeks

% positive 13% of tests. 

You can clearly see that flat built, car based CA did not have the sort of ramp up that NYC did. 

Also, we can see in Detroit, which is very young (Median age 31 vs. 34 in NYC and >40 US average) and schools remained open, the spread started a week later and was powerful.

% positive 28% of tests. 

We can also look at the case of Florida and the Spring Breakers, where the population at large is older and disperse and they were beset by an outbreak of New Englander Spring Breakers bringing the virus with them in crowded party conditions. And the outbreak died off abruptly the moment they left, leaving behind relatively few locals infected to pass on the infection slowly in their low density geography and older permanent population.

 % positive 10% of tests. 

 

What we did know that should have alerted us to keep going and get the herd immunity and protect the elderly and ill was the death stats - as the average age was known to be 80 and had comorbidities. For the bulk of the infected under this Octogenarian cohort, mortality was very low, particularly when the extremely small fraction of the infected,  those presenting with symptoms got tested. We knew that only a small portion of the infected population would get symptoms that would urge a doctor to order the test, that was known in late Feb when the Diamond Princess population was tested. 40% of the infected had no significant symptoms, only 20% had symptoms that would quality them for a test, and they were median age about 60. So the implied mortality rate per infection was already known to be quite small and lower than the flu and pneumonia infection fatality rate for the younger population - once you considered the untested population which you knew had to be at least 5X larger than the tested population. 

Since then, we have widely expanded testing so that anyone presenting at hospital is now tested for CV19 so would have non CV19 cases marked as such since they carry the infection regardless of their health conditions. e.g. 14% of NY maternity ward patients tested positive. 3% were positive with symptoms, total 17%. 

Now we have prevalence testing that showed results of 30% and 39% prevalence in hot spots in Boston (Chelsea) and NYC so the OVERALL IFR is orders of magnitude lower than the 1-2% used by epidemiological models. Only the 70 and older group had a higher mortality rate than normal seasonal disease. 

E.g. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200424/more-data-bolsters-higher-covid-prevalence

While these studies are the first to use antibodies, anecdotal information also suggests the virus has reached far more people than we know. Rochelle Walensky, MD, chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases at Massachusetts General Hospital and Brigham and Women’s Hospital, shared some surprising local results. To make room for more COVID patients, Brigham and Women’s wanted to empty their subacute nursing facility. Before releasing those patients, though, they had to be tested. Out of 87 patients total, 50 tested positive—and none had shown any symptoms.

They had a hot spot and never even knew it. Better than seasonal infection results.

I worked out a rough relationship of the infection results (% positives of tests for NY) based on the Bronx temperature anomaly charts form Kinsa normalized to the infection rates of seasonal flu and pneumonia. Then integrated them to project into a prevalence figure (not a disease figure) which would present as a % positive result figure at hospitals and other test sites.

Red is the implied prevalence from Temp. readings, Green is the integrated form assuming disease lasts 4 days on average, Blue is the % positive results from NY. 

Had epidemiologists followed actual data to project forecasts rather than use lies from decrepit CCP propaganda as medicine, then 1. they would have known the epidemic is ongoing by the 1st week of March. 2. they would now that infection mortality rate outside of the elderly are on the same order of magnitude as the flu and pneumonia.

Then using the Temperature data, they would have noted that different areas have completely different R0 values, much slower in drive through areas, much higher in public transport areas, much higher with large school populations, and extremely high at NYC that combines the worst of all possible viral transmission conditions in one geography. Dominated by Subway passenger transmission. Queens gave the  highest peak values of % positives at >57% at the peak in early April. 

NYC didn't stop public transport. 

You can see the NYC spread by zip, to show the concentration of hotspots rising by the distance (radius) to downtown Manhattan where so many work. Essentially, the longer your commute, the higher your chance of contracting the virus and getting ill. (This was taken from an article trying to debunk the MIT study claiming that the Subway and public transport were the major transmission modes in NYC Metro) They challenged the reader to find the subway network on the map's hotspot pattern. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/04/17/that-mit-study-about-the-subway-causing-covid-spread-is-crap/

With what we know now, we can open the economy completely to the young and middle aged healthy and keep the at risk elderly and high risk ill population at home and pay them to stay there. Only requiring that people wear masks in high density public places. And masks an gloves in public transport. In context of a decent mask, distancing is not particularly useful. Th IFR of the disease is too low to worry about, and the cost of preventing the spread via lockdowns is much greater than the loss of life even if we had just let the disease sweep through and take whom it may. It is expressed in loss of immunity, suicides, homicides, beatings, loss of economic capacity to pay for healthcare, and the collapse of supply chains for essential goods. 

The lockdowns were idiotic ideas from the first time they were applied in Wuhan, to every other place where they were done when it became consecutively more obvious, one closing after the next, that the virus presents a far smaller danger to the general population than the "expert" predicted. It makes it obvious that the media and politicians focused on obtaining the scariest possible numbers from any schmo with an epidemiology degree willing to bloviate on the matter.

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

Data don't support the idea that official covid 19 death rates are overestimated.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2020/04/14/underreporting-of-covid-19-deaths-in-the-us-and-europe/

"However, many people who died and had COVID-19 symptoms - at home, in a nursing home, or a long-term care facility - are not being tested."
"This problem is magnified in the country’s epicenter, New York City. City officials say they currently don’t have the testing capacity to include large numbers of people dying in their homes.  An estimated 180-195 people per day may be dying in their homes from COVID-19 in New York City, and go uncounted as victims of the coronavirus as they haven’t gotten a laboratory test confirmation."

Those deaths are just as likely due to lack of medical treatment as a result of lockdowns. The CV19 deaths at the hospitals are not counting cause of death. They are counting positive tests on people who died. Considering that the prevalence is as high as it is in NYC, then we know that the deaths were on the order of 1/3 related to CV19 disease, and otherwise just happened to have a SARS COV 2 infection incidental to the cause of death. 

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

MIT study, last version so far.

http://web.mit.edu/jeffrey/harris/HarrisJE_WP2_COVID19_NYC_24-Apr-2020.pdf

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

On 4/22/2020 at 6:44 AM, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

“Specifically, hydroxychloroquine use with or without co-administration of azithromycin did not improve mortality or reduce the need for mechanical ventilation in hospitalized patients,” they wrote. “On the contrary, hydroxychloroquine use alone was associated with an increased risk of mortality compared to standard care alone.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/study-of-hydroxychloroquine-trump-promoted-coronavirus-drug-finds-more-deaths?source=articles&via=rss

Observe the "glorious" leader Donald Trump with a fresh load of lies and evasions on the topic - because that's his method. Brush aside the expert advice, listen to loyalists, yes men and various interest group lobbyist, make random decisions, if they work, paint yourself a savior, if not, blame someone else. 

As long as the cult magic works - clap your hands, yesterday's lies are forgotten, today's lie becomes the tomorrow's truth. 

 

Odd how the left posts absolute misleading lies...and they are lies.

Today i listened to Wilkie state clearly....the VA handed over the data gleaned from the treatment being given. What you see in the Press posted in the press was merely there own interpetation of the data. Now we have a liberal rag interpeting medical data and then spread across social media.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/495409-va-secretary-defends-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-for-veterans-claims

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS888US888&ei=3YesXuaQKYPp-gTlm4fwDQ&q=robert+wilkie+debunks+the+study&oq=robert+wilkie+debunks+the+study&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQRzoCCAA6BggAEBYQHjoFCAAQkQI6BQgAEIMBOgQIABBDOggIABAWEAoQHjoFCCEQoAE6BQgAEM0COgUIIRCrAlDQWFif5wFgjOwBaABwAngCgAFwiAGnIZIBBDY0LjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6sAEA&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwim85jhwZPpAhWDtJ4KHeXNAd4Q4dUDCAw&uact=5

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Jim Profit + 46]

2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Odd how the left posts absolute misleading lies...and they are lies.

Today i listened to Wilkie state clearly....the VA handed over the data gleaned from the treatment being given. What you see in the Press posted in the press was merely there own interpetation of the data. Now we have a liberal rag interpeting medical data and then spread across social media.

Here is the study

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

And its conclusions

[Jim Profit + 46]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The CV19 deaths at the hospitals are not counting cause of death. They are counting positive tests on people who died.

You mean people killed by gunshot or car accident were counted as covid-19 ? There is no enough tests but they would be using them on dead people who did from unrelated pathology ? Ludicrous..
If this was true excess deaths count would rather inferior to COVID-19 deaths count, but it is superior..

Are you referring to the claim that hospital would be fraudulently reporting fake COVID-19 cases so they could be paid more ?
There is no evidence, this a rumor.

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

 Considering that the prevalence is as high as it is in NYC, then we know that the deaths were on the order of 1/3 related to CV19 disease, and otherwise just happened to have a SARS COV 2 infection incidental to the cause of death. 

The figures I quoted show 300% of excess death, so 4 times more death as usual.. So according to you for every 4 death, we have one death that would have occured anyway, one death because of covid-19 and the 2 remaining deaths because of ?? More explanation needed.

Excess death is a good approximation of the deaths caused directly or indirectly by the pandemic.

[Radha + 262]

Jim, you are so enthusiastic about posting leftist MSM propaganda. Are you being paid by Billy or did you OD on too much fear mongering MSM BS?

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

1 hour ago, Jim Profit said:

Here is the study

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

And its conclusions

Not even a study....how can one make a study without the knowledge of dosage's?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 4/30/2020 at 8:49 AM, Enthalpic said:

229,000 dead now, so about +19,000 in the 5 hours since your post.

Rare disease researchers have a variety of sayings that essentially mean the same thing.

"It's only rare until it's you." 

 

It's also not great to use percentages with very small or very large numbers. "Lies, damn lies, and stats."

If I told you your drinking water was only 0.00001% lead would you drink it?  It sounds like a small number unless I state it is as 250 times the tolerable level of around 40 part per billion.

 

 

With no statistics you have no perspective. The people who died of covid 19 are a small percentage of the total during the same period of time. They were mainly elderly whose lives did not have more than about a decade to go. Compare that to the number of abortions of those who never got to live outside of the womb. Statistics are essential and important. The problem is when people abuse them to create panic for hidden agendas. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

57 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

You mean people killed by gunshot or car accident were counted as covid-19 ? There is no enough tests but they would be using them on dead people who did from unrelated pathology ? Ludicrous..
If this was true excess deaths count would rather inferior to COVID-19 deaths count, but it is superior..

Are you referring to the claim that hospital would be fraudulently reporting fake COVID-19 cases so they could be paid more ?
There is no evidence, this a rumor.

The figures I quoted show 300% of excess death, so 4 times more death as usual.. So according to you for every 4 death, we have one death that would have occured anyway, one death because of covid-19 and the 2 remaining deaths because of ?? More explanation needed.

Excess death is a good approximation of the deaths caused directly or indirectly by the pandemic.

No, it is the methodology of reporting for expediency of electronic registry as data. Causes of death are complex text. That was the method used in Italy Spain France and most other places. It provides an upper bound to the deaths, which is what you want for epidemiological analysis, especially early on. 

Check it out on the statements from state health departments managing the databases.

Some hospitals have done precisely as you say and mislabeled some patients. The post above  yours that I had replied to was about a mortuary where all the bodies were labeled CV19. 

Yes, there are excess deaths, most from CV19, many others from untreated ailments, particularly delayed heart surgeries, aortic repairs, stopped cancer treatments, kidney procedures, gall stones, lack of doctor checkups leading to undiagnosed lethal conditions. Then it is people not going to their doctor or emergency room with infected cuts broken bones etc because of fear of CV19 and dying of sepsis or blood clots,  If hospitals save people's lives and the hospitals are overwhelmed, or simply turn away patients because they are instructed not to treat particular conditions, then how are the people normally saved going to  survive? It is a trivial question. You should know better. 

Do not fill your empty portion of the glass with imaginary CV19 cases when there are plenty other actual causes. 

The lockdown is illegal, unconscionable and  murderous. And does not accomplish much that could not have been done without it. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 4/30/2020 at 8:49 AM, Enthalpic said:

229,000 dead now, so about +19,000 in the 5 hours since your post.

Rare disease researchers have a variety of sayings that essentially mean the same thing.

"It's only rare until it's you." 

 

It's also not great to use percentages with very small or very large numbers. "Lies, damn lies, and stats."

If I told you your drinking water was only 0.00001% lead would you drink it?  It sounds like a small number unless I state it is as 250 times the tolerable level of around 40 part per billion.

 

 

229 thousand divided by 19 thousand would be 12 units of 5 hours. So you are saying about 229,000 died in the last 60 hours. 

Abortion Was the Leading Cause of Death Worldwide in 2019, Killing 42 Million People

 INTERNATIONAL   STEVEN ERTELT, MICAIAH BILGER   DEC 31, 2019   |   10:14AM    WASHINGTON, DC

 

https://www.lifenews.com/2019/12/31/abortion-was-the-leading-cause-of-death-worldwide-in-2019-killing-42-million-people/

Edited May 2, 2020 by ronwagn
reference

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Jim Profit said:

Here is the study

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

And its conclusions

This piece of scientific fraud, as Dr. Didier Raoult called it was produced by the "government" i.e. PROPAGANDA. Their methods always mean more than their conclusions, nothing is done before a pre-decided conclusion is dictated. If they can't manage to support the desired conclusion the report is not published. This is not about research or science but about propaganda and obtaining personal favors from the drug companies and vaccine makers intending to make a bonanza out of this. They all stand to lose many billions of dollars if a $20 course of treatment goes through to be proven successful. So they try their best to divert doctors and patients away from it. 

That simple.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Jim Profit said:

You mean people killed by gunshot or car accident were counted as covid-19 ? There is no enough tests but they would be using them on dead people who did from unrelated pathology ? Ludicrous..
If this was true excess deaths count would rather inferior to COVID-19 deaths count, but it is superior..

Are you referring to the claim that hospital would be fraudulently reporting fake COVID-19 cases so they could be paid more ?
There is no evidence, this a rumor.

The figures I quoted show 300% of excess death, so 4 times more death as usual.. So according to you for every 4 death, we have one death that would have occured anyway, one death because of covid-19 and the 2 remaining deaths because of ?? More explanation needed.

Excess death is a good approximation of the deaths caused directly or indirectly by the pandemic.

The excess deaths could also have been from the flu or some other cause. You need more studies to figure that out. 

[WaytoPeace + 62]

If any of you actually want to learn about the many drugs that are being evaluated to treat Covid-19, how they might work and the likelihood of their success, I would suggest that you watch the podcast by Dr. Mike Hansen on YouTube.  So far, the only one that appears to be helpful is remdesivir, which is now approved by the FDA for emergency use.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

30 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

 

Abortion Was the Leading Cause of Death Worldwide in 2019, Killing 42 Million People

 

Obviously fake news

Aborted fetuses do not get a time of birth nor a time of death. Abortions can't be a cause of death as the 'things" destroyed were never technically alive.