A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Radha + 262]

Enthalpic

What are the symptom of life, of being alive vs. being dead matter?

1) Growth

2) Breathing

3) Movement

4) Metabolism

5) Digestion

Etc. Etc.

Just because you cannot see someone yet, does not mean they don't exist yet.

Please consider this and then decide for yourself when you think life of a person should begin.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

229 thousand divided by 19 thousand would be 12 units of 5 hours. So you are saying about 229,000 died in the last 60 hours. 

Abortion Was the Leading Cause of Death Worldwide in 2019, Killing 42 Million People

 INTERNATIONAL   STEVEN ERTELT, MICAIAH BILGER   DEC 31, 2019   |   10:14AM    WASHINGTON, DC

 

https://www.lifenews.com/2019/12/31/abortion-was-the-leading-cause-of-death-worldwide-in-2019-killing-42-million-people/

Wow.  We are quite the species, aren't we?  I mean, that's one HELLUVA headline.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, WaytoPeace said:

If any of you actually want to learn about the many drugs that are being evaluated to treat Covid-19, how they might work and the likelihood of their success, I would suggest that you watch the podcast by Dr. Mike Hansen on YouTube.  So far, the only one that appears to be helpful is remdesivir, which is now approved by the FDA for emergency use.

Remdesivir does not impress me. It must be given intravenously so that would usually require an admission or clinic. All it does is mildly shorten the length of illness.

Hydroxychloroquine has had far more impressive results both given early on and when patients were on the verge of death. It is given in pill form. Just take the dosage prescribed orally. It will save you a lot of money but not make the pharmaceutical companies rich.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/stunning-reported-dr-fauci-praises-new-tests-expensive-gilead-drug-remdesivir-sneared-less-expensive-effective-hydroxychloroquine/

[0R0 + 6,251]

The peer reviewed papers for HCQ and HCQ/Z treatments

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1545C_dJWMIAgqeLEsfo2U8Kq5WprDuARXrJl6N1aDjY/edit

Summary of reported trials with results when provided at the end of the trial.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w6p_HqRXCrW0_wYNK7m_zpQLbBVYcvVU/view

The VA study, though included despite it being an obvious scientific fraud, included HCQ alone, HCQ with other treatments and controls of which 30 were treated with Azythromycin. No doses or descriptions of medical condition were provided. The report interpretation is a post facto fabrication from a journalist. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, Radha said:

Enthalpic

What are the symptom of life, of being alive vs. being dead matter?

1) Growth

2) Breathing

3) Movement

4) Metabolism

5) Digestion

Etc. Etc.

Just because you cannot see someone yet, does not mean they don't exist yet.

Please consider this and then decide for yourself when you think life of a person should begin.

I wasn't arguing that abortion is good...

You just can't legally call abortion a cause of death.

[Jim Profit + 46]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

The peer reviewed papers for HCQ and HCQ/Z treatments

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1545C_dJWMIAgqeLEsfo2U8Kq5WprDuARXrJl6N1aDjY/edit

Summary of reported trials with results when provided at the end of the trial.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w6p_HqRXCrW0_wYNK7m_zpQLbBVYcvVU/view

The VA study, though included despite it being an obvious scientific fraud, included HCQ alone, HCQ with other treatments and controls of which 30 were treated with Azythromycin. No doses or descriptions of medical condition were provided. The report interpretation is a post facto fabrication from a journalist. 

The list is cherry-picked and contrary the the claim it contains papers that werent peer-reviewed, ex: the Raoult study with 1061 patients..There is no link to the study in cas someone would form his own opinion, and a link the the covexit website (sic). This is marketing, not science.. Where did you find that ?

That's like the compilation from James Todaro, MD.. When you report him that he missed some study he says it's in the paper.. But it isn't..

Cardiac-side effects are well known wih Chloroquine, HCQ and Azithromycine but according to both documents there are none..

Both contains numerous preprint but omitted this one "Safety of hydroxychloroquine, alone and in combination with azithromycin, in light of rapid widespread use for COVID-19: a multinational, network cohort and self-controlled case series study"

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.08.20054551v1

"Despite a lack of evidence on efficacy, HCQ and HCQ+AZM have become the most popular treatment/s for COVID-19. This is the largest ever analysis of the safety of such treatments worldwide, examining over 900,000 HCQ and more than 300,000 HCQ+AZM users respectively."

"The results on the risk of SAEs associated with short-term (1 month) HCQ treatment as proposed for COVID-19 therapy are reassuring, with no excess risk of any of the considered safety outcomes compared to an equivalent therapy (SSZ). However, long-term treatment with HCQ as used for RA is associated with a 65% increase in cardiovascular mortality. Worryingly, significant risks are identified for combination users of HCQ+AZM even in the short-term as proposed for COVID19 management, with a 15-20% increased risk of angina/chest pain and heart failure, and a two-fold risk of cardiovascular mortality in the first month of treatment"

[Jim Profit + 46]

6 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

 

Obviously fake news

Aborted fetuses do not get a time of birth nor a time of death. Abortions can't be a cause of death as the 'things" destroyed were never technically alive. 

Whataboutism

[Jim Profit + 46]

 

7 hours ago, 0R0 said:

This piece of scientific fraud, as Dr. Didier Raoult called it was produced by the "government" i.e. PROPAGANDA. Their methods always mean more than their conclusions, nothing is done before a pre-decided conclusion is dictated. If they can't manage to support the desired conclusion the report is not published. This is not about research or science but about propaganda and obtaining personal favors from the drug companies and vaccine makers intending to make a bonanza out of this. They all stand to lose many billions of dollars if a $20 course of treatment goes through to be proven successful. So they try their best to divert doctors and patients away from it. 

That simple.

This is your conspirationist opinion, not facts.
"Raoult protocol works because it's cheap."What an overused and weak argument; 🙄

Raoult is paid by the french government.The IHU mediterannée is a french public hospital
Raoult isn't the superscientist some people claim.

Before he changed his mind he was constently understating pandemic importance..
On 17th february he claimed that this was "much ado for nothing", that it would kill less people than scooter accidents (the kind where you can't sit)..

IHU studies are very criticized.. For example he started his first study (listed in your document) with 26 people, and put aside 6 people during the study 🤷‍♂️ ..The paper is concerning enough that this statement had to be made..

https://www.isac.world/news-and-publications/isac-elsevier-statement

For the pre-print study with 1061 people, they were chosen amongts 3000+ people, inclusion criterium isn't given, the cohort isn't representative, for ex only 5.8% are obese against more than 15% in the french population, no witness group and not enough data.. Nevertheless the specialized revue "Prescrire" (made for the helthcare professionnal) did their best to compare with a population that were treated without Raoult treatment and that comparison didn't show that the treatment was particularly efficient..

https://www.prescrire.org/Fr/203/1845/58630/0/PositionDetails.aspx

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

6 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Obviously fake news

Aborted fetuses do not get a time of birth nor a time of death. Abortions can't be a cause of death as the 'things" destroyed were never technically alive. 

 

Babylon Bee:

U.S.—Democrats have finally turned on Planned Parenthood after the organization announced its new puppy abortion program.

Many thought Democrats would defend anything and everything Planned Parenthood does, but it seems they've finally done something Democrats are willing to criticize: killing puppies in the womb.

The abortions for dogs are performed under the organization's new "Planned Puppyhood" program. Planned Parenthood calls the program "Female Dog Healthcare" and says it is necessary for a dog's health and emotional well-being. "Her litter, her choice," the program's slogan goes. "Kill puppies -- no matter what." They will also be selling aborted puppy parts to the highest bidder.

"This is outrageous!" shouted one protester at a Portland Planned Parenthood clinic. "Planned Parenthood is murdering precious little dogs, pretending that it's just canine healthcare. They are participating in a modern-day holocaust that will end millions of cute little puppy lives. They are profiting off the murder of the unborn puppies. This is totally out of character for them! I can't believe they would do something like this."

Democrats say they will end their protests if Planned Parenthood agrees to go back to just killing human babies.

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

33 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

Whataboutism

Your comments seem ... familiar.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Provisional-Death-Counts-COVID-19-Pneumonia-and-Influenza.pdf

 

================================================================================

• 11,356   COVID-19
• 54,217   Pneumonia, Influenza, OR COVID-19

 

 

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

45 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

 

This is your conspirationist opinion, not facts.
"Raoult protocol works because it's cheap."What an overused and weak argument; 🙄

Raoult is paid by the french government.The IHU mediterannée is a french public hospital
Raoult isn't the superscientist some people claim.

Before he changed his mind he was constently understating pandemic importance..
On 17th february he claimed that this was "much ado for nothing", that it would kill less people than scooter accidents (the kind where you can't sit)..

IHU studies are very criticized.. For example he started his first study (listed in your document) with 26 people, and put aside 6 people during the study 🤷‍♂️ ..The paper is concerning enough that this statement had to be made..

https://www.isac.world/news-and-publications/isac-elsevier-statement

For the pre-print study with 1061 people, they were chosen amongts 3000+ people, inclusion criterium isn't given, the cohort isn't representative, for ex only 5.8% are obese against more than 15% in the french population, no witness group and not enough data.. Nevertheless the specialized revue "Prescrire" (made for the helthcare professionnal) did their best to compare with a population that were treated without Raoult treatment and that comparison didn't show that the treatment was particularly efficient..

https://www.prescrire.org/Fr/203/1845/58630/0/PositionDetails.aspx

 

He was not that far off. The Wuhan Coronavirus is not as deadly as suspected when it came out of China. He was far from alone thinking this. However, the population that is highly at risk could have been protected, but nowhere were procedures put in place to protect them, to train the nursing home staff in proper hygiene, and how to avoid transmission to their patients, nor was any effort made to help those at risk stay at home. Nor an effort by physicians to notify their patients that they are at risk. The outcome could have been as he portrayed it. 

Yes, he does have a different patient profile, but that does not mean a thing to the veracity of the science. It stands. You keep trying to make a scientific study into a drug trial. It isn't. The "trials" that attempt to use a drug combo with a 5-10 day operating horizon on last ditch efforts for dying patients are an obvious mismatch. By the time a patient is in critical condition the virus is not their main problem. After the Cytokine storm stage, the virus is not the main cause of symptoms, and while treating/curing it is essential to recovery, it is not the main determinant of survival for the next days or even weeks. As the study was intended to track the viral population over 10 days, the target candidates for inclusion would have to be in the risk category that would likely survive the period.

The conspiratorial perspective is an obvious one. The perpetual corruption of the medical establishment in the political regulatory, academic and medical practice spheres, particularly hospitals is notorious and the main reason US medicine costs as much as it does, and seems entirely unresponsive to  competitive pressures. Suppression of cheap and effective treatments is a constant theme of the pharma companies and their FDA monopoly enforcement agency since it was founded. Which is what it was actually created for. Cures are rarely pursued by pharma, and rarely assisted by the establishment, not the NIH, it seems against the FDA's religion. Their largest expense in launching a drug, other than marketing, is the FDA process. Not the R&D, not the production. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Your comments seem ... familiar.

What do you mean ? Are you trying to imply something about me ?

IMHO Ronwagn introduction of abortion in a topic related to effectiveness of HCQ is definitively off topic.
Introduction of inflammatory off-topic subjects derailing the main argument... Sound like whataboutism to me..

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

20 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Provisional-Death-Counts-COVID-19-Pneumonia-and-Influenza.pdf

 

================================================================================

• 11,356   COVID-19
• 54,217   Pneumonia, Influenza, OR COVID-19

 

 

 

 

More from the CDC website.

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku

 

 

[Jim Profit + 46]

27 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The conspiratorial perspective is an obvious one.

By definition conspirational perspective is obvious for the conspirationists.. Modus operandi of conspirationism begins with pretending than an extraordinary unproven claim (the conspiration) is true , then "validate" it by looking at how some known facts can be explained by the conspiration. Even if there are explanations that are way more probable and obvious they will ignore them and only retain the one that is compatible. These explanations "validate" the conspiration, the conspiration "validates" the new found "facts". This is circular reasoning.

They have backup validations of the conspiracy, and even they can find more if needed. Easy as this is a collaborative effort widely available on social networds.

You can't argue with them as the conspiration can only be true.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Jim Profit said:

"The results on the risk of SAEs associated with short-term (1 month) HCQ treatment as proposed for COVID-19 therapy are reassuring, with no excess risk of any of the considered safety outcomes compared to an equivalent therapy (SSZ). However, long-term treatment with HCQ as used for RA is associated with a 65% increase in cardiovascular mortality. Worryingly, significant risks are identified for combination users of HCQ+AZM even in the short-term as proposed for COVID19 management, with a 15-20% increased risk of angina/chest pain and heart failure, and a two-fold risk of cardiovascular mortality in the first month of treatment"

That is why thoughtful doctors substitute Doxycycline for the AZM in the elderly. Particularly if they have heart disease. It acts similarly to stunt RNA reproduction in infected cells, just as it does with the bacteria. 

The side effects are a red herring here. This is a treatment and may be a cure for the disease and offers accelerated recoveries and reduced chances of hospitalization and death. The earlier you start it the better the outcome. You don't use it on the people it might kill. You modify it or take precautions against it. The prescribed CV19 treatment course with HCQ/Z is 10 days, not a lifetime. 

I am at a loss as to why anyone would take just the HCQ alone. It is too weak and has a limited effect in the early days of the treatment. It only slows down the virus, not fast acting enough on its own. 

So how are the trials for famotidine going? got an update by any chance. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

The excess deaths could also have been from the flu or some other cause. You need more studies to figure that out. 

If you have known facts / data to back this allegation please do share them, otherwise this is gratuitous. 

The excess death aren't explained by the regular flu. (source CDC)

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

5 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

So how are the trials for famotidine going? got an update by any chance. 

AFAIK so far no treatment has proven to be effective agains COVID-19, unfortunately..

[0R0 + 6,251]

12 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

By definition conspirational perspective is obvious for the conspirationists.. Modus operandi of conspirationism begins with pretending than an extraordinary unproven claim (the conspiration) is true , then "validate" it by looking at how some known facts can be explained by the conspiration. Even if there are explanations that are way more probable and obvious they will ignore them and only retain the one that is compatible. These explanations "validate" the conspiration, the conspiration "validates" the new found "facts". This is circulal reasoning.

They have backup validations of the conspiracy, and even they can find more if needed. Easy as this is a collaborative effort widely available on social networds.

You can't argue with them as the conspiration can only be true.

I suggest you go and read up on the subject. Conspiracy historian G Edward Griffin does great work on these topics with ample documentation. 

The alignment of interests, the exclusions from anti trust, the collusive nature of the individuals in the power structure and their rotation from on the make at the FDA to cashing in at the pharma regulatory affairs to getting top appointments are all visible if you care to look. 

Take away your presumption that government and its participants are well meaning and their stated mission is the actual driver of their actions and the failures in reality make far more sense. It makes many of them appear outright genocidal. 

If you take the practice of realpolitic in international affairs for granted, then you should understand that these are the same people doing the same thing in relation to the public and their favored "interests". 

Conspiracies are constantly happening all the time everywhere there is a benefit to be had from the power of government or from its sale by politicians or bureaucrats,  to whack your competitors, form a monopoly via a regulatory agency, from a regulation forcing the purchase of your product, then someone is working all angles all methods legal or not. And the detriment to the country or the public is not a consideration when you and your exec team get to collect multimillion bonuses and stock options or grants.  

[0R0 + 6,251]

24 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

If you have known facts / data to back this allegation please do share them, otherwise this is gratuitous. 

The surmortality not explained by the regular flu. (source CDC)

similar data for pneumonia diagnoses?

[Jim Profit + 46]

1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Provisional-Death-Counts-COVID-19-Pneumonia-and-Influenza.pdf

• 11,356   COVID-19
• 54,217   Pneumonia, Influenza, OR COVID-19

This data is from the 4/16.

The source for the most widely source for the COVID-19 death number (which is  64,000 now) in the US the Johns Hopkins University.
For the 4/16 they estimated that there were about 35,000 deaths.. Obviously they didn't take into account every death that have symptoms that could be explained by COVID-19.

(https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/cumulative-cases)

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

2 hours ago, 0R0 said:

similar data for pneumonia diagnoses?

As said above if you have known facts / data please share them...

[Jim Profit + 46]

11 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Not even a study....how can one make a study without the knowledge of dosage's?

"retrospective analysis of data from patients hospitalized with confirmed SARSCoV-2 infection in all United States"

[Radha + 262]

We also need to keep in mind that many hospitals are struggling  big time financially as virtually no other services have been performed for almost two months. Many doctors were sent home Outside of NY there were no crowded hospitals.

Some doctors said they were pressured to add Covid19 on the death certificates.

Others said that the hospitals get more government money for each Covid19 case so it is in their financial interest to overreport Covid cases.

And then of course we have the issue that the majority of those who passed away died WITH Covid19 and NOT FROM Covid19. They already had serious pre-existing conditions or passed away from something else but caught the virus shortly before they died.

We basically will never know the true numbers. But it appears that the large majority of the population won't get seriously ill from Covid19 if they catch it.

What we do know is that for some reason the MSM and Dems seem very eager to keep this crisis dragging on and on whereas others want to get back to a somewhat normal life and not live in constant fear. It has become a political tool now to take Trump down. The Dems basically are hoping for many people to die once we end the lockdown so that Trump will be proven wrong. They won't stop at anything to get him out of office come November. Not a Trump fan here, just impartial observer.

[Radha + 262]

More and more doctors speaking out against the MSM conspiracy

https://www.sott.net/article/433676-COVID-19-not-as-deadly-as-feared-hospitals-will-shift-back-to-normal-UPMC-doctor