A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Radha + 262]

What the 'actual deaths are higher' people are doing, is exploiting a time-series trick. They know that on Apr 12, a lot of deaths were yet to be cataloged. So they publish 'shortfalls' at that point in order to create panic in those who cannot spot the magician's trick.

The problem is, that this is not just misinformation - it is an activity of darkness. It is a human rights offense. They think they are just being clever, not realizing the seething evil which is entailed in their activity.

[Jim Profit + 46]

2 hours ago, Radha said:

What the 'actual deaths are higher' people are doing, is exploiting a time-series trick. They know that on Apr 12, a lot of deaths were yet to be cataloged. So they publish 'shortfalls' at that point in order to create panic in those who cannot spot the magician's trick.

The problem is, that this is not just misinformation - it is an activity of darkness. It is a human rights offense. They think they are just being clever, not realizing the seething evil which is entailed in their activity.

 

No such anomaly in the data from Johns Hopkins University.. which are the data the media rely on.
The numbers from your chart come from the CDC.. Are you sure that the Trump administration did such data manipulation ?

Did you check the data at the CDC or just took this chart at face value..
If you checked and confirmed did you consider other explanations ?

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

6 hours ago, Radha said:

More and more doctors speaking out against the MSM conspiracy

https://www.sott.net/article/433676-COVID-19-not-as-deadly-as-feared-hospitals-will-shift-back-to-normal-UPMC-doctor

"A UPMC doctor on Thursday made a case the death rate for people infected with the new coronavirus may be as low as 0.25%"

The way he formulaes this implies that this is the low range of his estimate.

Look at what the WP was saying april 28th:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/antibody-tests-support-whats-been-obvious-covid-19-is-much-more-lethal-than-flu/2020/04/28/2fc215d8-87f7-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html

"The city has recorded more than 12,000 confirmed covid-19 deaths, and lists another 5,000 as probable deaths. That is an infection fatality rate between 0.5 and 0.8 percent, depending on which death toll is factored in."

Knowing that both numbers are estimates, that's not far off.....Which estimate is the better ? I don't know..

Not easy to know the real fatality rates.. Initial estimates were way too high..

With more testing, better knowledge about the disease (lots of asymptomatics), estimations were refined..

Same for R0 which was estimated at 2.5.. Now a study suggests a R0 of 5.7.. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article)

Media can't only report the data available...No "MSM conspiracy" to be seen there...

BTW info flu has a fatality rate of 0.1 % maybe less.. even with the lowest range of D. Yealy estimate, that is 0.25%, COVID-19 is far deadlier for infected people.. And COVID-19 is far more infectious with a R0 maybe as low ast 2.5 ,maybe as high a 5.7 vs a R0 of 1.5 for the flu.

330,000,000 / 100 * 0.25 = 825,000

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Have anyone even though about the MSM conflicts of interest?

For example:

Washington Post accused Trump is working to lower tax for corporations, for the rich, for the lobbying and takes it stand with the progressive, the liberals, the democrats who want a higher tax on corporations. But its owner is Amazon's Jeff Bezos and it is a corporation itself, so how do anyone believe that it is reporting against itself and its own boss? Where is the independent opinion from that? It list its stock on Wall Streets itself.

The same rule applies for CNN, New York Times etc. Fox is at least stay with its boss side (I learned that from liberals who think Fox is bad, I don't have time to find news and most news comes to me is in liberal side). It is in broad daylight, not even in the dark to be seen as conspiracy theory. News Corp will report news & analysis their bosses want readers to believe. Face it.

If you say rich people don't like recession, think again, it is a chance for them to buy equity cheap.

I also can understand at least one more factor for more left leaning voter in big metro. The real estate prices are too high and it is not economically for lots of people (right/left, regardless of education levels or income) to mortgage a place to live instead of renting and they lean on 401k as only source of saving for retirement. Naturally they are unlikely to be able to accumulate asset such as a no mortgage house on their retirements and naturally they want governments to take care of their place to live when they retired or out of jobs or when they are sick. If you don't have much things to be attached to and likely to want a safety system, you are a liberal. That also explain why Europe, NZ, Canada, Australia, Norway lean left. Their real estates price are crazy and their tax are too high so much more risk to own a place for retirement or out of job. That's why US left used to be in then central if compares to Europe political right wings.

Left ideology always need a strong central government to redistributing resources and improve on safety net  but unfortunately it is very to lead to corruptions in big Countries, which arguably more easier to have a dictator. For small countries such as NZ or Singapore or Norway,  as there is not much room/funds  to be corrupted. Everything is much more simple and transparent so strong government should be fine with unlimited terms.

The reverse is in the rural area, people can own houses more easily (as long as you are not tricked to spend too much from the ads, or fall into credit card debts) and it is a retirement saving besides 401k and US's conservative  (classical liberal) ideology is user pay and less regulation, less central power.

Educations is the area where you got talents measures by your grade as a students and researches quality as a scientist. Life is not working that way and sometimes an lucky "idiot" can earn/inherit  much more than University Professors or PhD.  So naturally most of smart people in University careers lean left, as the real world is so corrupted and unfair.

Of course there always hardcore party loyalists, ideologists, useful idiots on both sides. I just try to have the "every man for themselves" angle. We never knew if a person is a real ideologist or just hold the ideology flag for their own gain.

Edited May 2, 2020 by SUZNV

[0R0 + 6,251]

9 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

 

No such anomaly in the data from Johns Hopkins University.. which are the data the media rely on.
The numbers from your chart come from the CDC.. Are you sure that the Trump administration did such data manipulation ?

Did you check the data at the CDC or just took this chart at face value..
If you checked and confirmed did you consider other explanations ?

 

CDC is largely refractory to the White House. Same as the CIA NSA and FBI. They are run out of congressional and Senate committees, and their money comes out of the House, and it is Democrat. The president does not control them, not the personnel, not the internal orders, and they will brazenly lie to sabotage any of the president's "tasks". 

 

[Jim Profit + 46]

Same criticism must be applied to every publication.
Medias like the dailykos  crooks&liar, occupy democrats, gatewaypundit, infowars, thedailycaller, breibart, the daily wire..
These are partisan and ideollogically charged medias.
They have an ideology to sell and will only publish stuff that is expected by their readers..And are the most prone to distort facts..

For scientific and medical information, I would stay away from these and go to more moderale medias like the NY the WP, WSJ, the BBC... Or scientific/medical magazines..

This chart is eloquent..
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/?v=402f03a963ba

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jim Profit

[0R0 + 6,251]

4 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

"A UPMC doctor on Thursday made a case the death rate for people infected with the new coronavirus may be as low as 0.25%"

The way he formulaes this implies that this is the low range of his estimate.

Look at what the WP was saying april 28th:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/antibody-tests-support-whats-been-obvious-covid-19-is-much-more-lethal-than-flu/2020/04/28/2fc215d8-87f7-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html

"The city has recorded more than 12,000 confirmed covid-19 deaths, and lists another 5,000 as probable deaths. That is an infection fatality rate between 0.5 and 0.8 percent, depending on which death toll is factored in."

Knowing that both numbers are estimates, that's not far off.....Which estimate is the better ? I don't know..

Not easy to know the real fatality rates.. Initial estimates were way too high..

With more testing, better knowledge about the disease (lots of asymptomatics), estimations were refined..

Same for R0 which was estimated at 2.5.. Now a study suggests a R0 of 5.7.. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article)

Media can't only report the data available...No "MSM conspiracy" to be seen there...

BTW info flu has a fatality rate of 0.1 % maybe less.. even with the lowest range of D. Yealy estimate, that is 0.25%, COVID-19 is far deadlier for infected people.. And COVID-19 is far more infectious with a R0 maybe as low ast 2.5 ,maybe as high a 5.7 vs a R0 of 1.5 for the flu.

330,000,000 / 100 * 0.25 = 825,000

 

 

That is first of all incorrect off the top since the deaths number is a clear overstatement. Not an understatement. NYC and Detroit have 7-8% confirmed case deaths. The rest of the country is in the 3% range with a few at 4% and a handful at 5% (incl. NJ). As NYC was only overwhelmed for a week, the only other reason they would have such high fatalities after that is that they are fake registrations for tests.  

We know they are trying to generate more positive test results because they went on a testing spree for no apparent reason

Where the medical system is not financially distressed, the death rate is lower. Indicating a markup of deaths with fake CV19 codes in order to generate income from the government, among other reasons.. 

R0 ranges from 1.5 to over 10 and is entirely dependent on student density in the population and public transport ridership and other congested environments. The spread out US sprawl has a low R0 but for schools and church and other events. R0 for child heavy Detroit is on the order of 5, as its temperature chart shows the bulk of the current level of infections was reached within just 5 workdays in the second week of March. New York is far higher and showed a steadier expansion marked by slow expansions on weekends. NYC subway+elevator ridership is R0 on the order of 20. The balance for the city is likely over 10 for R0. Plane cabins also present an R0 on the order of up to 20. The NYC epidemic shows up on the temperature charts as 2 to 3  5 day segments interspersed with flat 2-3 day weekends. 

It is not possible to apply a single R0 value to the whole country and all circumstances. 

R0 in a schoolroom with the windows and door open is probably somewhere near 1. With closed windows it is likely closer to 5. 

R0 in the subway airplane or elevator without PPE is up to 20, With PPE, mask and gloves, it is well under 2. 

Prisons, open bay type, are at the top of the R0 scale. No idea what it is. Nursing homes are a second high R0. But since these are all tested at once regardless of symptoms, the 50%-100% infections don't give you a graph from which to derive the slope and thus R0.

You can see the effectiveness of PPE in that the entire staff of the Wuhan hospital at the center of the infection was tested for antibodies and the director was disappointed that only 3.7-3.9% of the staff had been infected, because he does not have herd immunity in his facility despite the early exposure and lack of supplies. Even respirators and gloves reused over and over provided enough protection so that the staff made it out of the pandemic with such low infection rates. 

So Bottom line, the IFR is on the order of 0.1%-0.3% depending on the prevalence of high initial infection loads as the highest fatality rates are among prisoners, not nursing homes, and not among prison guards. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

31 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

Same criticism must be applied to every publication.
Medias like the dailykos  crooks&liar, occupy democrats, gatewaypundit, infowars, thedailycaller, breibart, the daily wire..
These are partisan and ideollogically charged medias.
They have an ideology to sell and will only publish stuff that is expected by their readers..And are the most prone to distort facts..

For scientific and medical information, I would stay away from these and go to more moderale medias like the NY the WP, WSJ, the BBC... Or scientific/medical magazines..

This chart is eloquent..
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/?v=402f03a963ba

Those are not unbiased media. WP and BBC are left

WSJ is corporatist

Medical and scientific magazines lean left and often hard left towards authoritarian top down medicine.

Nobody can afford investigative journalism any more, so they don't have actual investigations to form their news stories, just political and commercial bias. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

33 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Those are not unbiased media. WP and BBC are left

Much less biased than the other ones I mentioned.

[Jim Profit + 46]

48 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

That is first of all incorrect off the top since the deaths number is a clear overstatement. Not an understatement. NYC and Detroit have 7-8% confirmed case deaths. The rest of the country is in the 3% range with a few at 4% and a handful at 5% (incl. NJ). As NYC was only overwhelmed for a week, the only other reason they would have such high fatalities after that is that they are fake registrations for tests.  

Again, 309% excess deaths in NYC between 3/11 and 4/25, more than the counted COVID-19 deaths. Excess deaths meaning deaths that don't usually happen at the same period of the year.. Known facts point to COVID-19 death being underestimated at NC.

"Fake registration for tests" ? An unproven gratuitous allegation validating the point you didn't prove. See above "conspirationism" and "circular reasoning".

Edited May 3, 2020 by Jim Profit

[0R0 + 6,251]

31 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

Again, 309% excess deaths in NYC between 3/11 and 4/25, more than the counted COVID-19 deaths. Excess deaths meaning deaths that don't usually happen at the same period of the year.. Known facts point to COVID-19 death being underestimated at NC.

"Fake registration for tests" ? An unproven gratuitous allegation validating the point you didn't prove. See above "conspirationism" and "circular reasoning".

You want doctors to go on record to say they did it? There are enough of them pointing fingers at each other claiming someone else did it. Don't expect a statistic from a survey.

What you can do is look at comparable results from lower infection rate cities and states, and you see a reported death rate about half and even less. 

You can view the NY numbers to be as exaggerated as Wuhan's were under-representative. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

15 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

AFAIK so far no treatment has proven to be effective agains COVID-19, unfortunately..

CCP Wuhan coronavirus AKA COVID 19

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MXY8T0j7k0oUBsHW4BfjJM__DRIyzqrDf_FSlV4hHpw/edit#

 

Anyone interested in the truth should follow this thread. 

 

Hydroxychloroquine news thread on Twitter https://twitter.com/niro60487270

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Jim Profit said:

Again, 309% excess deaths in NYC between 3/11 and 4/25, more than the counted COVID-19 deaths. Excess deaths meaning deaths that don't usually happen at the same period of the year.. Known facts point to COVID-19 death being underestimated at NC.

"Fake registration for tests" ? An unproven gratuitous allegation validating the point you didn't prove. See above "conspirationism" and "circular reasoning".

Please explain your deductive logic pinning COVID 19 as the only cause for the deaths that are unexplained. "Point to" is not logic, it is hearsay.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

"A UPMC doctor on Thursday made a case the death rate for people infected with the new coronavirus may be as low as 0.25%"

The way he formulaes this implies that this is the low range of his estimate.

Look at what the WP was saying april 28th:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/antibody-tests-support-whats-been-obvious-covid-19-is-much-more-lethal-than-flu/2020/04/28/2fc215d8-87f7-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html

"The city has recorded more than 12,000 confirmed covid-19 deaths, and lists another 5,000 as probable deaths. That is an infection fatality rate between 0.5 and 0.8 percent, depending on which death toll is factored in."

Knowing that both numbers are estimates, that's not far off.....Which estimate is the better ? I don't know..

Not easy to know the real fatality rates.. Initial estimates were way too high..

With more testing, better knowledge about the disease (lots of asymptomatics), estimations were refined..

Same for R0 which was estimated at 2.5.. Now a study suggests a R0 of 5.7.. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article)

Media can't only report the data available...No "MSM conspiracy" to be seen there...

BTW info flu has a fatality rate of 0.1 % maybe less.. even with the lowest range of D. Yealy estimate, that is 0.25%, COVID-19 is far deadlier for infected people.. And COVID-19 is far more infectious with a R0 maybe as low ast 2.5 ,maybe as high a 5.7 vs a R0 of 1.5 for the flu.

330,000,000 / 100 * 0.25 = 825,000

 

 

The flu has been kept under control by millions of vaccinations every year. I had two shots this year for more varieties. Other parts of the world have much higher death rates.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2017/12/new-estimate-shows-higher-global-rate-deaths-flu

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

Again, 309% excess deaths in NYC between 3/11 and 4/25, more than the counted COVID-19 deaths. Excess deaths meaning deaths that don't usually happen at the same period of the year.. Known facts point to COVID-19 death being underestimated at NC.

 

As I had pointed out before, all of the patients that were not receiving surgeries or treatments that were routinely being saved by the hospitals are not being saved. Not the cancer patients, not the heart surgery candidates, the knee surgery guys are still hobbling along or on crutches and wheelchairs, the people who did not have their heart meds changed, Those who did not get their CT and MRI scans so were not diagnosed - they are dying. Why do you think all those hospital facilities were there. Why do you think they were so busy? and are now empty. When you can no longer get your triple bypass, then you show up after the heart attack it would have prevented for the 1st year after the operation. So you die. If you died and had a positive CV19 test then you would be a CV19 death. 

The governors who did hard shutdowns and prevented "non emergency" treatment and surgery from being done are MURDERERS.

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

14 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

As I had pointed out before, all of the patients that were not receiving surgeries or treatments that were routinely being saved by the hospitals are not being saved. Not the cancer patients, not the heart surgery candidates, the knee surgery guys are still hobbling along or on crutches and wheelchairs, the people who did not have their heart meds changed, Those who did not get their CT and MRI scans so were not diagnosed - they are dying. Why do you think all those hospital facilities were there. Why do you think they were so busy? and are now empty. When you can no longer get your triple bypass, then you show up after the heart attack it would have prevented for the 1st year after the operation. So you die. If you died and had a positive CV19 test then you would be a CV19 death. 

The governors who did hard shutdowns and prevented "non emergency" treatment and surgery from being done are MURDERERS.

 

I pretty sure only elective procedures were postponed  Cancer, heart problems, appendicitis, etc. still got treatment (at least around here).

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

30 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

So you die. If you died and had a positive CV19 test then you would be a CV19 death. 

 

If you die and they just say you had Covid19 they get at least 25% more money than otherwise. But certain "folks" here believe every doctor isn't in it for the money. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

12 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I pretty sure only elective procedures were postponed  Cancer, heart problems, appendicitis, etc. still got treatment (at least around here).

 

Half my neighbors are cardiologists. They're doing no procedures right now. None. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

10 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I pretty sure only elective procedures were postponed  Cancer, heart problems, appendicitis, etc. still got treatment (at least around here).

 

Emergencies yes, electives are not just nose jobs. That includes bypass and aneurysm ops that are preventive in nature. Cancer treatments, radiation and chemotherapy were mostly skipped. Lots of diagnostics are not done. Only emergencies - meaning imminent threat to life were allowed.  Past the peak over a month ago, it was empty ERs, empty corridors. Ambulance drivers reading newspapers while people stay at home and die. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

21 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

What do you mean ? Are you trying to imply something about me ?

As a new member on this Oil Price forum, your entire activity has been 25 comments in this thread only. 

You have not commented on any other thread in this forum. 

Your earlier 1 word comment stating Whataboutism got my attention, as there was another former member here who used that term repeatedly to derail comments.

So far, it appears that you are only parroting the WHO talking points about the China flu, knocking any possible good effects of HCQ, and generally pushing CNN / MSM style hysteria.

On an oil centered forum, you have made zero mention or comment about oil or energy, but basically appear to be only propagating an anti - HCQ agenda.

So ... you strike me as an unusual newcomer to an oil forum.

[Radha + 262]

Tom, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps a paid troll from the Gates/WHO agenda to try to influence the world to accept the new wonderful world order.

[Radha + 262]

Tom, and it was very obvious that Mr. Profit had a rebuttal ready for whatever anyone said. Within minutes his responses were copied and pasted from his work file. Definitely does not seem to be interested in anything to do with oil.

 

[Jim Profit + 46]

I found this thread while looking for information related to the study about reumatology patients in Italy. I'm just interested about this topic.

If you're getting your medical and your scientific information from medias like daily kos or the dailycaller you're looking for confirmation, not for the truth.

Unfortunately AFAIK no treatment has been proven effective against COVID-19.
I'm not pro or anti-HCQ.. If you claim that remdesvir or any other treatment is efficient i will be as sceptical
Conspirationists chose HCQ as the supposedly effective treatment denied to people by the evil (((globalists))), what can i do ?

Rebuttals were the result of my personal work, based on my knowledge of the topic and I did the needed additional research.

(if you think of it one minute, that's not feasible to have rebuttals ready for every allegation that could come)

Going to such length to try to discredit me, like doing paranoid accusations, tells more about your than about me.

I perceive some frustration, maybe this is usually an echo chamber and you're not used to be contradicted.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Anyone interested in the truth should follow this thread. 

Hydroxychloroquine news thread on Twitter https://twitter.com/niro60487270

Anyone looking for the truth should stay away from opiniated twitter accounts supporting a treatment like you support a football team, that is more llike looinkg for confirmation.. And from compilations that only cherry-pick science that support the point the author wants to make, like the one from JameTodaroMD...

I would rather suggest to read this piece from Jason Sheperd who is way more qualified than you and me..

Misinformation goes Viral
https://medium.com/swlh/misinformation-goes-viral-1aad951e4492

Edited May 3, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Please explain your deductive logic pinning COVID 19 as the only cause for the deaths that are unexplained.

I never made such allegation. That would be people claiming that official COVID-19 is overestimated to prove their point, which they still didn't . For me I'm perfectly fine with these number. See the logical fallacy known as "shifting the burden of proof".