A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

8 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

195,000 deaths, Geoff.  Wake up, man.  You didn't used to be the type to defend bad actors.  I for one am not one of the bad actors, and I don't think anyone else on this site is either, except the Chinese trolls and bots, but they are to be expected.

Not defending CCP, although I will defend the Chinese. I'm saying that Americans and Brits that seem to want war with China over this need to look at their own governments' miserable response first.

Not only that, but they shouldn't get fooled into supporting their leaders because of warlike rhetoric. It just makes things worse.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

6 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

Which experts, names and institutions, and links to their article on mainstream in Jan 2020?  Seems WHO has no expert warned any other countries about this.

WHO declared this an International Emergency on Jan 30th.  They had already gotten virus samples out and approved Germany's virus tests by Jan 17th.

They were on top of this as much as the Chinese authorities would let them.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

6 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Not only that, but they shouldn't get fooled into supporting their leaders because of warlike rhetoric. It just makes things worse.

First honest thing you have said on this thread! 

Keep up the good work! 👍👍

[SUZNV + 1,197]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Have ou conveniently forgotten that WHO got the virus out of China and the Germans had a test by Jan 17th? And that WHO declared this an international emergency on the 30th? Just because you believe anything Trump says doesn't mean you should.

I don't believe Trump on anything in the future. I know he is not fortune teller. I also don't believe in experts didn't say anything back then but lots of them jump out of nowhere right now.

Had a test by Jan17th means nothing. If you have a sick person and you suspects he got corona,  you have a sample to perform the test on, it can be done in any country. There are two kinds of test:

1 Take the sample, bring to the lab and have a lab scientists perform the test. Do you have any idea how many flights in US a day to do this kind of tests even with Asians along? How many lab hours need to do just that?

2 Mass manufacturing fast test kit does not work that way. You need many samples for develop a fast test kit, and then set up for mass production , which requires  specific chemical supply. Only then you can do the tests from the quarantine people or from the airports. This will take months. That's why Spain, Italy, UK,Czech etc. had to import them from China and then found out it is only 20% of accuracy. Why US is an exception on this? And Trump wanted to send CDC to Wuhan to help (and collect the sample) 

If the tests are not accurate around 80%. It is meaningless to contain. And how do you pick who to tests with a limited number of test available? Even no symptoms people can spread. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

As I've said through Feb and March - Trump lied the entire way through, telling people there was no risk, telling them to go to work, telling them it was just a flu, telling them to try hydroxycloroquine, telling them to try injesting bleach.

He did everything except do his job, which was to make sure the country was ready for an epidemic. And when the states tried to start ordering things he'd just outbid them.

Anyone who is going to talk about malice on the part of the Chinese will have to accept equivalent malice on the part of the Trump administration. I happen to think that both are fed with a combination of corruption and incompetence instead.

There you go again.  The federal government's job is to defend the U.S. from foreign aggressors.  The individual States' jobs are to prepare for disasters, yes including the spread of disease, within the States (inside the borders of the U.S.).  You are really starting to worry me, Geoff.  Donald Trump, as you have been informed over and over again, gave updates about developments as they came available from his available pool of experts.  Does Donald Trump embellish?  Yes, even he admits that he has tried at EVERY chance he gets to bring hope and let the people know he is trying HIS best to get things figured out.  The purpose of follow-on updates, daily, from the President, is to "update" (look it up) the people as the crisis develops.

Donald Trump is an advocate for allowing patients with little to no chance of treatment/cure from existing known drugs to have access to and use other possible alternatives.  This is called individual rights.  It's like my right to pray to a god, if I believe that is going to help me: it's my right.  Donald Trump supported a bill to make this into law, long before this virus came along.  It had mostly to do with cancer treatments and the like, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how it might apply when people are dropping dead from this virus and some of the experts say it is worth a try.  And he never told anyone to ingest bleach.  He never told anyone to inject disinfectant.  What he did do was show the press that he is open to all ideas from the medical experts.  Check the video again.  He asked his aide to make sure the doctors and the experts were looking at light treatment possibilities.  He told his aide to make sure they were looking at treatments of all kinds; to rule nothing out.  If you keep repeating this type of BS, Geoff, we may get the impression that you are gullible, or worse.

Of course, you are free to have your opinions about Trump.  

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

10 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

2 Mass manufacturing fast test kit does not work that way. You need many samples for develop a fast test kit, and then set up for mass production , which required  specific chemical supply. Only then you can do the tests from the quarantine people or from the airports. They took months. That's why Spain, Italy, UK,Czech had to import them from China and then found out it is only 20% of accuracy. Why US is an exception on this?

Germany was testing 160,000 samples per week by 20th March and was up to 500,000 two weeks later. In comparison, Trump was comparing the virus to the flu on 9th March. Why is the US so much worse at this that Canada, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Taiwan?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-germany-has-managed-to-perform-so-many-covid-19-tests

14 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

And Trump wanted to send CDC to Wuhan to help (and collect the sample) 

So why did he kill the Pandemic Response Team and gut the foreign CDC budget by 90%?

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

17 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

First honest thing you have said on this thread! 

Keep up the good work! 👍👍

I'll try not to let it go to my head 😉

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

17 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Not defending CCP, although I will defend the Chinese. I'm saying that Americans and Brits that seem to want war with China over this need to look at their own governments' miserable response first.

Not only that, but they shouldn't get fooled into supporting their leaders because of warlike rhetoric. It just makes things worse.

I can't speak for those "that seem to want war".  Maybe you should take a poll?  

You say now that they "need to look at their own government's miserable response first."  Did you notice that you used the word "response"?  I'm pretty sure "they" are talking about the government that allowed this disease to be born in the first place and then to spread throughout the world.  In fact, Geoff, there have been 195,000 deaths so far, in case you missed it.

Do you think Donald Trump is pumping us up to march on Wuhan?  Do you think he is preparing us for a bombing campaign?  Do you think he is fooling us into supporting him pushing the nuclear button?  Do you think we will get "riled up" enough to push him to do any of those things?  Really Geoff, we are not the bad actors here.  We have a right to debate.  We have the right to find those responsible and demand some type of restitution for the loss of life and income, hell, entire economies.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

You mean like how Trump was inciting protesters in Michigan to break their lock in?

Look, Trump pushes hydroxychloroquine which kills a few people in tests and the testing is stopped. Instead of backing the scientists trying to do research, he starts peddling bleach for the same thing. How is that not malice and/or incompetence? I can't see how that can do anything but hurt Americans.

Trump agreed that the people have the right to protest against a questionable authority and a questionable order (lockdown).  If the President were telling Americans to break laws, that might not be a good idea and I'd get your attempt at a point.  In this case Americans were neither breaking a law or a legal order.

Where do you get your informations with regards to this hydro?  I thought this had been extensively discussed on one of these forums.  I thought there are known to be a great many hospitals and doctors around the world attempting to save people with the suggested cocktail of hydro and, what is it, a form of zinc.  Others will have to speak to this.

And you then go as far as to say that Trump is NOT backing the scientists trying to do research?  And then that, INSTEAD of backing scientists, he is peddling bleach?  Do you see/hear what you are writing?  Get ahold of yourself, man.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

I can't speak for those "that seem to want war".  Maybe you should take a poll?  

You say now that they "need to look at their own government's miserable response first."  Did you notice that you used the word "response"?  I'm pretty sure "they" are talking about the government that allowed this disease to be born in the first place and then to spread throughout the world.  In fact, Geoff, there have been 195,000 deaths so far, in case you missed it.

Do you think Donald Trump is pumping us up to march on Wuhan?  Do you think he is preparing us for a bombing campaign?  Do you think he is fooling us into supporting him pushing the nuclear button?  Do you think we will get "riled up" enough to push him to do any of those things?  Really Geoff, we are not the bad actors here.  We have a right to debate.  We have the right to find those responsible and demand some type of restitution for the loss of life and income, hell, entire economies.

You keep saying 195,000. Over 1/4 of those are American deaths. All the while Trump is flailing around looking for someone to blame.

Trump excels at one thing: marketing. He's not a great businessman. He's really not a good husband. He can't pick aides that don't end up in prison. But he's fantastic at marketing and getting people to buy into him.

Watch what he's going to do with this to shore up support. Like any populist, he knows that he can do that through beating a war drum. He knows that Bush got a 70% popularity boost because of 9/11 and is frustrated that he basically got none for COVID-19. My hunch is that he's going to try something more drastic.

[0R0 + 6,251]

44 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Trump fired the head of the Pandemic Response Team in 2018.  He also reduced the CDC's international budget by 90%, forcing them to pull out of most countries and lessening their presence in China.  https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-trump-united-states-public-health-emergency-response/

 

None of this would have made a difference. The budget control is not instantaneous, and goes through congress. That is how the firing was done and the international operations were reduced. As it turned out, short of spying they would have not known anything at the time than they had otherwise. They were not allowed to go anywhere, collect any samples. If there were 10 times more of them they could not have done any differently.

The Pandemic response team were reputed to be writing regulations and incomprehensible response protocols according to ER docs quoted here who were using those as guidelines. None of that was gone because the people were. Their documentation remained. The reason for the Keystone Cops behavior of the CDC was that it did not consider that China and WHO would lie. That samples were not to be had, That their own people at the top would be busy with sabotaging Trump. And finally, the pandemic response team never considered a virus that transmits by public surfaces as easily as in personal contact. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Oh, so the buck doesn't stop with him. Poor little Donald, he was told incorrect things from the CDC.

The dumbest things that I hear Trumpists say are "it was a joke" and "it wasn't his fault". Guess what? Any other president goes by "the buck stops here."

He's a president that fires any staff that are smarter than him and refuses to listen to anyone that says anything he doesn't like. The buck stops with him.

He really gets under your skin, doesn't he?  You might consider therapy.  Just kidding.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

25 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Germany was testing 160,000 samples per week by 20th March and was up to 500,000 two weeks later. In comparison, Trump was comparing the virus to the flu on 9th March. Why is the US so much worse at this that Canada, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Australia, Taiwan?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-germany-has-managed-to-perform-so-many-covid-19-tests

So why did he kill the Pandemic Response Team and gut the foreign CDC budget by 90%?

You are using March number now, 2 months later, so it did not discredit my claim, which most countries have community spreading already. . How do you decide who get the test and who don't when we have community spreading already and people spreadingaround without any symptoms in a big spread out country like the US? How much test US could perform back in 20th March? If you know the number will climbing will your burst all of you supplies with the testing?

Germany did an impressive job and I am glad about it. They were able to slow the spreading with the number of testing. Because of the slowing down by the testing, their numbers will keep increasing.

Pandemic Response Team and gut the foreign CDC budget by 90%

You are misinformed. A budget cut in 2021 in chronic diseases shouldn't affect CDC in  response to Covid19 this year. They simply has very low performance. That claim is half truth.

snopes.com/fact-check/trump-cut-cdc-budget/

 

 

Quote

 

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT

• Trump did attempt to cut the CDC’s funding, but Congress prevented it from happening.

 

• While officials in charge of the U.S. response to pandemics did leave in 2018, it’s unclear if they were “fired.”

 

• The U.S. was not on a list of countries receiving COVID-19 tests from the WHO. But the U.S. doesn’t usually rely on the agency for diagnostic tests, and the testing delay was due mainly to an error with the CDC’s protocol.

 

• While Trump has called the Democratic response to the coronavirus a “hoax,” he has not used the term to describe the virus itself.

 

• snopes.com/fact-check/trump-cut-cdc-budget/

   

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by SUZNV

[0R0 + 6,251]

33 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

WHO declared this an International Emergency on Jan 30th.  They had already gotten virus samples out and approved Germany's virus tests by Jan 17th.

 

The CDC didn't allow those tests. So what does that prove other than the CDC's personnel known enmity to Trump.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron said:

Except, the experts recognized the threat. I think Trump’s problem is he does not understand what an exponential function means. Simply the fact that China LOCKED DOWN Wuhan and Hebei province suggested that there was an ongoing healthcare crisis involving. As early as January, epidemiologist and infectious disease experts were aware of the looming crisis. Keep in mind early on Trump insisted that the 3.4 death rate released by China was an exaggeration. In some parts of the US the death rates in some areas are as high as 5% to 7%. Finally, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan had access to the same data and WHO reports and acted on them. 

Yes, it was do as they do, not as they say. Because what China and the WHO said were opposed to what China did. 

Yes, Trump was misled to trusting the wrong experts. In particular those from the WHO that suggested the West should not worry and the emergency does not mean the virus is transmissible. 

Singapore Korea etc. were not responding to the WHO but immediately triggered their SARS plans, which had been practiced for quite a few years. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

46 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Not defending CCP, although I will defend the Chinese. I'm saying that Americans and Brits that seem to want war with China over this need to look at their own governments' miserable response first.

Not only that, but they shouldn't get fooled into supporting their leaders because of warlike rhetoric. It just makes things worse.

Nobody is talking about anyone except the CCP, Geoff.  No one.  Everyone is talking about the CCP, Geoff.  Everyone.  So if no one is talking about the Chinese people and everyone is talking about the CCP, and you keep defending the Chinese side, who are you defending?

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

6 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The CDC didn't allow those tests. So what does that prove other than the CDC's personnel known enmity to Trump.

Well, it certainly proves institutional rot inside CDC (and FDA). But a six week delay that the Whitehouse was aware of but didn't act on?

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Nobody is talking about anyone except the CCP, Geoff.  No one.  Everyone is talking about the CCP, Geoff.  Everyone.  So if no one is talking about the Chinese people and everyone is talking about the CCP, and you keep defending the Chinese side, who are you defending?

When anyone starts going after the Chinese for the "wet markets" it starts getting a racial tinge which should be avoided. If we called them "less sanitary farmers markets" I would be happier because it is more descriptive and doesn't cast Chinese as a weird group.

I completely agree, though, that Chinese government should begin regulating these better.

And yes, my wife is of Chinese heritage.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

He finally used his emergency powers AFTER everyone was mad at him for not coordinating. The fact that he had gotten rid of the Pandemic Response Team was the reason for them being uncoordinated. This was entirely within his remit.

 

No. He took emergency powers because the agencies would not do as directed. Citing executive orders were below the necessary pay grade for them to be released from their internal regulations and director level decisions. Again you don't seem to understand that this is not a parliamentary system, but distributed government with independent agencies operating on their own and having no obligation to the White House. 

That was why he took on emergency powers. Otherwise we would still not have FDA allowed tests or treatments. The institution needs to be shut down. 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

Well guys, I'm off to bed. My wife will give me a hard time tomorrow for sleeping in and leaving her with the kids.

I hope I haven't offended everyone too much. I think you'd all be fun to be stuck with in a lockdown with an ample supply of beer and cards.

Here's a good tune that y'all should enjoy:

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Well, it certainly proves institutional rot inside CDC (and FDA). But a six week delay that the Whitehouse was aware of but didn't act on?

You need to understand that this was covered  by a fog of war; practically anyone in the medical establishment lied to the administration about something critical. CDC was promising tests since early February. Created the impression that there were no cases but there was testing. Then we found out that there was no testing, a prohibition on testing and a testing policy deliberately designed to avoid detecting community spread. The idea that these professionals would be deliberately fanning flames of crisis is not easy to swallow. Yet there it is.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

 

6 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Well guys, I'm off to bed. My wife will give me a hard time tomorrow for sleeping in and leaving her with the kids.

I hope I haven't offended everyone too much. I think you'd all be fun to be stuck with in a lockdown with an ample supply of beer and cards.

Here's a good tune that y'all should enjoy:

 

Nothing wrong of being a Chinese or having a Chinese wife. My great grandfather came from Guandong which belongs to BaiYue Culture which speak Cantonese to Vietnam (which was one of BaiYue tribe in the past), but some how he changed his family name to Vietnamese origin.  Kiss your wife for me.

Edited April 25, 2020 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

You keep saying 195,000. Over 1/4 of those are American deaths. All the while Trump is flailing around looking for someone to blame.

Trump excels at one thing: marketing. He's not a great businessman. He's really not a good husband. He can't pick aides that don't end up in prison. But he's fantastic at marketing and getting people to buy into him.

Watch what he's going to do with this to shore up support. Like any populist, he knows that he can do that through beating a war drum. He knows that Bush got a 70% popularity boost because of 9/11 and is frustrated that he basically got none for COVID-19. My hunch is that he's going to try something more drastic.

Nope.  The only thing the left and the left-leaning media (picture a palm tree in a hurricane) show you in most of their sound/video bites is the President reacting to their leading questions.  I'd suggest you find time in your day, you should have enough, to watch the White House's daily briefing, in its entirety.  It includes many speakers, including doctors, scientists, Generals, Federal Government department heads and spokespersons, and the President himself.  In nearly every briefing, when it is the President's turn, he assures everyone that every resource of the government is on task to help not only the American people, although he will tell us we are his priority, but the world as much as possible.  He does his best to give a feeling of hope (people are at wits end, Geoff.  It's the virus, you see).

It might be worth mentioning, although it's probably a small point, that among the million or so government workers there are a few people, only a few Geoff (I wouldn't want to skew your world-view), that have agendas opposite the President.  When the President figures out that they don't have his or the American people's best interests in mind, he sometimes replaces them.  Heaven forbid, you say.  They were the only ones that could have saved us, you say.  Now there is no one else that can save us, you say.  Well I say bunk.  I can be replaced, you can be replaced, the CEO of a company as big as AT&T can be replaced.  The list is endless of people that can be replaced.  And the work goes on.  In fact, in many cases believe it or not, the work goes on and results start coming in.  Positive results.  195,000 deaths, Geoff.  You say Trump is looking for someone to blame.  What are you doing?

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

16 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

And yes, my wife is of Chinese heritage.

So is mine.  There are a number of forum members here that have Chinese heritage wives, who are probably not going to fall for the race card in this covid mess.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

46 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

So why did he kill the Pandemic Response Team and gut the foreign CDC budget by 90%?

STOP THE LIES, or wilful abject ignorance; not sure which at this point

" ne such move at the NSC was to create the counterproliferation and biodefense directorate, which was the result of consolidating three directorates into one, given the obvious overlap between arms control and nonproliferation, weapons of mass destruction terrorism, and global health and biodefense. It is this reorganization that critics have misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented. If anything, the combined directorate was stronger because related expertise could be commingled”  "

*** are you truly this ignorant or just swill the leftist slander Bull Shit hook line and sinker peddled by the MSM?