A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Jim Profit + 46]

8 hours ago, ronwagn said:

CCP Wuhan coronavirus AKA COVID 19

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MXY8T0j7k0oUBsHW4BfjJM__DRIyzqrDf_FSlV4hHpw/edit#

Is that supposed to show effectiveness of a specific treatment about COVID-19 ? 🙄
Please point me to some specific study so I can have a look at it.

[Robert Thomas 2 + 10]

Always makes me wince hearing something that might smear ajs rep

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

58 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

Going to such length to try to discredit me, like doing paranoid accusations, tells more about your than about me.

I perceive some frustration, maybe this is usually an echo chamber and you're not used to be contradicted.

Heck, I'm used to being contradicted here.  Dissent is *encouraged* on this forum.

Actually, I tend to view my own comments on the China Flu as dissent, because they certainly fly directly into the face of MSM hysteria.

Anyway, carry on.

[Jim Profit + 46]

To be totally transparent as some of you may have noticed by now English isn't my primary language.. I'm a french guy with visibly too much time on his hands. And Jim Profit is a character from "Profit", a 24 y/o series.

[Jim Profit + 46]

What do you think of the notion of psychological warfare and the idea that adversaries of the western democracies use it ?

"Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/

"Russia deploying coronavirus disinformation to sow panic in West, EU document says"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-disinformation/russia-deploying-coronavirus-disinformation-to-sow-panic-in-west-eu-document-says-idUSKBN21518F

Edited May 3, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Anyone interested in the truth should follow this thread. 

Hydroxychloroquine news thread on Twitter https://twitter.com/niro60487270

I had a look at this.. The guy mentionned this tweet as a proof of HCQ effectiveness..
https://twitter.com/Covid19Crusher/status/1256612927853006849

"Italy has adopted the early hydroxychroloroquine treatment end of March"

Couldn't find any source validating this claim.. AFAIK Italy only launched small trials.. 

I think you should have a look at this:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/think-before-you-share/
 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Jim Profit

[surrept33 + 609]

Another review article of all the current studies, this one seems to have been fairly spread widely in the medical community:

https://www.contagionlive.com/news/chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-ineffective-covid-19

Actual article:

https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1096/fj.202000919

There is still a lot of clinical trials going on.

[surrept33 + 609]

Dr. Zelenko under probe:

https://www.axios.com/hydroxychloroquine-fox-news-doctor-doj-probe-59d9aeae-f23d-4a56-99b5-c2337b5cb601.html
 

How the probe started is pretty crazy:

How it happened: Jerome Corsi, a Roger Stone associate and former Infowars employee who had been under scrutiny in the Mueller investigation, accidentally emailed federal prosecutor Aaron Zelinsky instead of Zelenko about the drug.

[Marcin2 + 726]

On 4/30/2020 at 5:51 PM, Ward Smith said:

I'd never accuse you of treason. 

Blatant stupidity and TDS? Might have to accuse you of that. 

Please explain Mr 20-20 hindsight why the freaking President of the United States is personally responsible for every death in this country. None of that "buck stops here" claptrap, you're accusing him of personal responsibility, which only applies if he personally did something directly. 

Screw ups at CDC, which I documented here a month before you heard of it aren't personally his fault, especially if he didn't know about it. Is he omnipotent, omniscient? I don't think so. But yeah TDS 

I upvoted your post cause it is a voice of reason in bi-partisan histeria in US, but never the less Trump is guilty of being not decisive when his leadership was needed. He is right about China, even that he is not the right President for tough times, that is why I respect him and in the past I admired him, but he disappointed me. Sometimes he is the businessman not the statesman, he wants to not  lose and not to win. He does not understand China. And Trump has very bad advisors, this week they were speaking about US defaulting on Chinese held Treasuries. Real birthday present for Xi Jinping but 6 weeks too early, he was bord on 15 June 1953. They have bithdays with Trump on 2 consecutive days: 14 June Trump, 15 June Xi.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Marcin2
typo and more babling

[ronwagn + 6,290]

23 hours ago, ronwagn said:

CCP Wuhan coronavirus AKA COVID 19

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MXY8T0j7k0oUBsHW4BfjJM__DRIyzqrDf_FSlV4hHpw/edit#

 

Anyone interested in the truth should follow this thread. 

 

 

Hydroxychloroquine news thread on Twitter https://twitter.com/niro60487270

Your response means you are not really interested in the truth.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/22/2020 at 11:44 PM, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

“Specifically, hydroxychloroquine use with or without co-administration of azithromycin did not improve mortality or reduce the need for mechanical ventilation in hospitalized patients,” they wrote. “On the contrary, hydroxychloroquine use alone was associated with an increased risk of mortality compared to standard care alone.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/study-of-hydroxychloroquine-trump-promoted-coronavirus-drug-finds-more-deaths?source=articles&via=rss

Observe the "glorious" leader Donald Trump with a fresh load of lies and evasions on the topic - because that's his method. Brush aside the expert advice, listen to loyalists, yes men and various interest group lobbyist, make random decisions, if they work, paint yourself a savior, if not, blame someone else. 

As long as the cult magic works - clap your hands, yesterday's lies are forgotten, today's lie becomes the tomorrow's truth. 

 

To all the leftie looneys that cheered this article, DT doesn't pull these ideas out of his backside as you all seem to believe. He "got the idea" because countries in Asia had experimented with the drug and said it was useful and effective. Same with UV light. Idea came from scientists, not DT. You are the liars, not Trump. Then again, I suppose it not a lie if you just don't know the truth? Ignorance may be bliss, but it's also dangerous. You all have the IQ of a rotten carrot and should be barred from voting IMHO.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:42 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Detroit News:

Democrats plan to censure lawmaker who credited Trump for COVID-19 recovery

Detroit Democrats plan to vote Saturday to censure and bar any future endorsements of a Democratic lawmaker who credited President Donald Trump with advocating for the drug that she said cured her of COVID-19.

State Rep. Karen Whitsett, D-Detroit, broke protocol by meeting with President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence during an April 14 meeting of COVID-19 survivors, during which she credited hydroxychloroquine for saving her life. 

“Thank you for everything that you have done,” Whitsett told Trump at the meeting. “I did not know that saying thank you had a political line. … I’m telling my story and my truth, and this how I feel and these are my words.”

The meeting and other comments Whitsett made prior to and during the coronavirus pandemic have landed her in hot water with the 13th Congressional District Democratic Party Organization.

The group, as first reported by Gongwer News Service, plans to vote Saturday on a resolution to censure Whitsett, a first-term lawmaker representing the 9th Michigan House District.

The admonition means she will not get the group’s endorsement for this year nor will she be able to engage in the group’s activities for the next two election cycles. 

“At the end of the day, we have political systems,” said Jonathan Kinloch, chairman of the organization. “We have political parties, and political parties exist for a reason."   ...

 

 

To destroy the nation it seems? One side spends too much, the other thinks tax cuts are the solution to everything, once again, clowns to the left, jokers to the right...

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:38 AM, Gerry Maddoux said:

You're walking on the ledge of sedition, Geoff. I don't think you really want to do that. Yes, there's freedom of speech but when you speak to incite, well there you are, out there on that ledge. 

I think that you will find that Trump did listen to his medical and crisis advisors, and made executive decisions when there was no consensus amongst those advisors.

Keep in mind that everyone , especially in the early stages, was making assumptions and decisions with little or flawed information.

Mass media was simply fanning the flames.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/24/2020 at 2:38 PM, notsonice said:

So is Trump thinking that we should stick a UV light in each lung and sniff clorox at the same time?

Actually, the UV light thing is scientific fact. Might not be able to stick UV light in lungs, but many airports around the globe are now installing UV lamps over "high-touch surfaces", such as check-in counters etc.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/24/2020 at 3:23 PM, Gerry Maddoux said:

I have to tell you, I'm much more worried about what's to come: one of Xi's scientist coming up with a vaccine used only on the Chinese (without their knowing what they were getting), or alternatively, tweeking this virus so it's meaner but looks like just a mutant of the original. 

I have been dismayed listening to "the team" each night. The men who should have been surveillant of this didn't even bother to make sure of our supplies. Yet we're to somehow catapult them to hero status? I would never have thought this possible! Not in America.

We need a true paranoid at the helm. For a crazy job you need a crazy person. Always, in medicine, the best innovator in bad times was a guy about half-crazy. We need at the top a Churchillian figure surrounded by Bletchley Park types. Planning for the worst. Paranoid. Waking up with nightmares and spiders climbing the walls. For two decades we talked about a "dirty bomb," and now that we've finally had one, I haven't even heard the term. I suspect that all these empty suit men and women are so damn afraid of upsetting the world order they won't say sh*t if they have a mouthful. 

My great fear is that we suffered a bioterrorism attack. And that it was a dirty bomb in the form of a diaspora of infected Chinese Wuhanians. I am utterly flabbergasted that someone hasn't confronted Mr. Xi with this in the most implicit terms possible. None of this beating around the bush, but more like, we know you did this, and all moral peoples of the world will surely ostracize you from the community of responsible nations and countries.

We're going to survive this, in some form, though I must say that I am worried that those people who suffered taste and smell issues may have permanent damage. When I was a buck intern, we asked everyone who had Parkinsonism if they had had the 1918 flu. Most had. I hope I'm wrong. But I must say, for years we just let the Chinese have at us: SARS, Avian, Swine, now this. Looks like no one has the balls to just come right out and say you did this and we're coming for your sorry ass! 

It would help if there wasn't so many left-wing pussies at the top levels of the Pentagon? Not a word from them?

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 2:54 AM, Geoff Guenther said:

I don't think this would ever go anywhere.

First off, the only countries that would have any claim on this would be the countries that actually did a better job than China at combatting the virus. Germany, Canada, New Zealand, all the East Asian countries - they all should have a gripe because they all did the right thing and the virus has stricken their economies anyway. At one point most of Canada's infections came from the US, while a good percentage of Germany's came from Italy.  No matter how good they were it was impossible for them to keep at bay.

The US and UK and Southern Europeans cannot complain because China did a measurably worse job handling this than China did, and they all had much more warning than China did.

Then comes the trust deficit Trump has created in international relations. Trump has hit Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia with punitive tariffs which are still ongoing. All of these countries are large importer/exporter countries and want to maintain trading relationships. Trump has given them no reason to trust or respect him in any dealings, so they have every reason to buck the idea of sanctions on China.

Lastly, what is the reason for sanctions? Should the US have been punished for not containing H1N1? Africa was helped, not scolded, for its issues with Ebola. Same with the Zika problem in South America. Epidemics are tricky things. Now epidemiologists say there were 28,000 cases in just five US port cities by March 1st and that the first US death was Feb 6th. We might find their "wet" markets disgusting, but in reality they are just farmers markets that you find everywhere in the world.

This pandemic have started anywhere.  Making China sign the Treaty of Versailles and pay reparations for an event they managed poorly but with no evidence of maliciousness could backfire on us when we make a mistake.

You probably believe the Chinese when they say that the virus came from US soldiers visiting Wuhan? I used to think you were intelligent. Now I need to block you.

[Jim Profit + 46]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Your response means you are not really interested in the truth.

The random opiniated document and the random opiniated Twitter account ... again ?

Please..

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 3:15 AM, Dan Warnick said:

Now Geoff.  You know the differences between sanctions, tariffs, duties, VAT and sales tax.  I recall you and I and @Jan van Eck had pretty lengthy discussions about all that many months ago.  It was clear that the EU had a number of ways of making U.S. goods more expensive going into Europe than European goods going into the U.S.  In some cases the difference was a percent or two and in other cases it was significant, but in almost every case goods and services from the U.S. were "taxed" at higher rates.  IMHO, President Trump was right for making his point.  The EU refused to relent and now there is this dispute with the EU pointing fingers at the U.S. while omitting the reality of the situation pre-Trump.

We can discuss it again if you like, but maybe that wasn't your main point in this discussion.

 

Australia has no problem with Trump. On the contrary, relations never been better and we look forward to working together to supply and manufacture critical minerals.

[LiamP + 168]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:40 PM, 0R0 said:

You are presuming that the appropriate goal is containment and suppression of the virus. It is when you don't know a thing about it and are not ready, as was the situation in Feb. when Japan HK Singapore Korea and Taiwan did their SARS exercise as planned. 

...

I do presume containment and supression was the appropriate goal yes. If that is achievable, and plenty of nations have shown it is without excessive societal disruption, then why the hell not? Contact tracing, testing and quarantining are all very cheap compared to thousands in hospital and lockdowns, and if containment works it saves lives.

Herd immunity doesn't need to be the endgame. It wasnt for SARS1, MERS, EBola, etc etc and needn't be for SARS2. In fact before SARS2 I dont think I ever even heard the term herd immunity outside of discussion on vaccines. S Korea has it down to less than 20 new cases per day - so herd immunity in about 7000 years. This rolling through the whole population is not an inevitability. You just need to be prepared and execute timely and effective action.

I agree with you lockdowns are bad - terrible cost to benefit ratio. I just dont believe your alternative of lock up the elderly and everyone else charges towards herd immunity was or is a credible strategy. We still dont even know to what degree, if any, immunity can even be achieved. So it's a gamble now with possibly no benefit, but back in feb was suicidally reckless, which I guess is why nobody adopted the strategy in the end. The closest we have to seeing that experiment played out in the world is Sweden and they failed to protect their elderly. Care homes need staff, and independent elderly need to go and get food. Never gonna protect them while the rest of society is seething with virus.

The various conspiracy theories abound are all interesting. Certainly much pantomime in the media and government in the US, quite an appetite for conspiracy theories - must be easy to get caught up in all that. Probably a degree of truth in much of it too. There's a whole rest of the world all going through the same pandemic though. Here in Norway, for example, most media reports and government action/addresses is just boringly science driven, what we know, what we dont know, discussion of the models and their uncertainties, the strategies and their risks and costs. Hospitals that dont need to make profit. Quietly participating in properly designed drug and vaccine trials.

All a bit boring and I just see it for what it most likely is - a virus that's just nasty enough we ought to fight it, but contagious enough that that is difficult unless you were prepared. So I just see the massive difference between those countries that were prepared and those that were not and made a mess of things.

As I said I dont think chasing herd immunity is the right strategy here. Just look at the carnage in some places and imagine the scale of it without all the lockdowns that have supressed it to a degree. This isn't flu - I cant recall in my lifetime in the UK, for example, a flu season killing over 100 doctors and nurses.

But for the sake of discussion, let's entertain your position. Let's say for SARS2 we could have gotten away with just letting it burn through, trying to protect the at risk groups, without too much tradegy. Stamping on it would have been even better, but that's a bit more difficult, I digress. So all good then. For SARS2. Now what about the next pandemic? Let's say this one is engineered, or mother nature just landed on a real monster - it's just as contagious as SARS2 but 50-100 times more lethal and preferentially kills children and the young to middle-aged. All within the realms of possibility.

How does that play out? The nations who are prepared with their 'SARS plan', as you put it, they just rinse and repeat and stamp on it as they have done for SARS2. Everyone else, like much of the West now, they either let it get beyond control and try to fix it later with lockdowns or whatever, or shoot for herd immunity at whatever cost is associated with that. Either way it is a disaster of epic proportion.

That's why I believe our governments must have an effective response like East Asia and others (I'd even include Norway) have demonstrated in our toolkits. If not for this one, but the next one. Lockdowns to limit damages already inflicted by inaction, or resignation to complete infection with the hope we can protect to some degree whomever turns out to be vulnerable and the further hope we get to achieve herd immunity for all the trouble cant be the only cards we have to play. Then if we have such a response available to us, may as well use it for one like this that turns out to be not the end of the world. Still lives saved for little cost.

That's my main point. Well that and to dispel this silly notion that Sweden is the answer that keeps being posted by people who know nothing about what is happening in Sweden and why, but hey they dont have a lockdown! Some nations have neither a lockdown nor an out of control virus and large pile of dead. That's the club to be in - Sweden isn't in it!

Edited May 4, 2020 by LiamP

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 8:16 AM, 0R0 said:

You are forgetting that Trump did not have control over the CDC operations till he got the message that they and the FDA were actively sabotaging the testing effort, providing false advice in public etc. He then managed to clamp down on them by using national security law and signing them onto appropriate documents to provide some leverage over them. He begrudgingly took out emergency powers in order to be able to twist the arm of the FDA to do its job and disentangle it from its own internal red tape. You are attributing to him control where he didn't have it, and allocating this malicious fraud of saboteurs to the administration that trusted the "professionals".  

The WHO also declared that there was no human to human transmission, no aerosol transmission, no transmission by touch. They suggested you go on flying and that it was unnecessary to stop Chinese flights. The suggested you don't use gloves and masks, the CDC and NIH followed. The CDC and FDA then PREVENTED anyone from producing or applying tests during this time. That is exactly the opposite of what they were telling the administration. 

I think it washes every error on Trump's part as it is both huge in scale and malicious intent, while at worst, Trump made a mistake. 

If Trump and his supporters have their way, the outcome of this is going to be a denuding of international organizations of funding and governments of authority and an enormous PR smear of the medical establishment and the Dems. 

Oro, did u notice this freak said that WHO gave sample of virus from China to Germany on Jan 17? Utter BS. Australian scientists were first to replicate the genome using samples from infected Australian patients.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

First honest thing you have said on this thread! 

Keep up the good work! 👍👍

I believe that letting China off the hook will make things far worse than going to war with them.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, SUZNV said:

I don't believe Trump on anything in the future. I know he is not fortune teller. I also don't believe in experts didn't say anything back then but lots of them jump out of nowhere right now.

Had a test by Jan17th means nothing. If you have a sick person and you suspects he got corona,  you have a sample to perform the test on, it can be done in any country. There are two kinds of test:

1 Take the sample, bring to the lab and have a lab scientists perform the test. Do you have any idea how many flights in US a day to do this kind of tests even with Asians along? How many lab hours need to do just that?

2 Mass manufacturing fast test kit does not work that way. You need many samples for develop a fast test kit, and then set up for mass production , which requires  specific chemical supply. Only then you can do the tests from the quarantine people or from the airports. This will take months. That's why Spain, Italy, UK,Czech etc. had to import them from China and then found out it is only 20% of accuracy. Why US is an exception on this? And Trump wanted to send CDC to Wuhan to help (and collect the sample) 

If the tests are not accurate around 80%. It is meaningless to contain. And how do you pick who to tests with a limited number of test available? Even no symptoms people can spread. 

Indeed. AstraZeneca of Sweden first to come up with 100% accurate test (last week), and will be making 1m/month by end of year.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/25/2020 at 10:04 AM, SUZNV said:

 

Nothing wrong of being a Chinese or having a Chinese wife. My great grandfather came from Guandong which belongs to BaiYue Culture which speak Cantonese to Vietnam (which was one of BaiYue tribe in the past), but some how he changed his family name to Vietnamese origin.  Kiss your wife for me.

He can kiss her for me too, must have extraordinary patience to put up with him

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:05 AM, Coffeeguyzz said:

Interesting that this thread is still running as of late Sunday (East Coast, USA) April 26.

Tokyo, roughly comparable in size and density to NYC just hit the 100 mark for deaths attributed to COVID 19.

There is no lockdown in Tokyo.

NYC, in contrast, just passed the 12,000 mark in COVID- related fatalities ... a rate 120 times  higher than Tokyo's.

 

Hmmmm ....

Tokyo citizens wore masks, New Yorkers did not?

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 5/1/2020 at 4:14 AM, Enthalpic said:

Your rose coloured glasses for trump...

Alternatively, he is being a classic "business man" and is making money with / off those pharma companies.

 

Actually, Gilead is donating the medicine, not making political donations of money to anyone.