A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

30 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

This was SARS-CoV-1, a different virus. 

The current one is SARS-CoV-2.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2

Ah yes, because there are different cold & flu medications every year for each new variation of the cold & flu every year.

When you go to get over the counter medicines for the cold & flu, you obviously need to specify which specific strain of the cold or flu you have, right?

< sigh >

Don't mind me, I'll just be over here in this corner, banging my head against the wall.

[Grumpy Pants + 35]

The research from 2005 confirms that hydroxychloroquine was effective in reducing Cov1 virus count in cell cultures. And it was significant! 

In human trials with Covid19, it just doesn't seem to be a smoking gun. Unless the whole world of globalists and anti-trumpers are consipiring to make it look that way - which is a bit too much for me to stomach. 

Is it possible that some studies massage results to further certain goals? Yes, likely. I'm not that naive. 

It looks to me like, while there may be some benifits to hydroxychloroquine (or in combination with another drug), sadly, it doesn't loom like a silver bullet at this time. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

SARS-CoV-1 SARS-CoV-2 are part of the same species as is Bat SL-CoV-WIV1

Does that mean that a treatment effective for one is effective for the others ?

Very complex domain.. Many factors.. Not my field of expertise.. I wouldn't be that affirmative..

Why the scientific didn't think of that ? Because they lack "common sense" ?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Jim Profit

[Jim Profit + 46]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Pants said:

The research from 2005 confirms that hydroxychloroquine was effective in reducing Cov1 virus count in cell cultures. And it was significant! 

 

I think good results were also observed with HCQ for SARS-CoV-2 in-vitro.

[Grumpy Pants + 35]

14 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

I think good results were also observed with HCQ for SARS-CoV-2 in-vitro.

Correct. Recent studies acknowledge the discrepancy here too. The science is unsure of the mechanisms - why good results in vitro but not necessarily in vivo. The good news is we will likely get some more answers in coming months. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

9 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

It was already proven, in 2005.  Please see my long comment direct above this one ^

It might help to stop paying attention to the MSM false panic narrative.  Your choice.

 

That phrasing makes me cringe.

Try:

"Publications as early as 2005 have demonstrated the effectiveness of Chloroquine at suppressing cornovirus infections. (Vincent, M, Et al.)"

🖖

[Bob D + 562]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:19 PM, UNC12345 said:

I don't even blame him for the virus

It must be exhausting being you

 

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

4 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

SARS-CoV-1 SARS-CoV-2 are part of the same species as is Bat SL-CoV-WIV1

Does that mean that a treatment effective for one is effective for the others ?

Very complex domain.. Many factors.. Not my field of expertise.. I wouldn't be that affirmative..

Why the scientific didn't think of that ? Because they lack "common sense" ?

The ACE2 receptor infection vector of both SARS is identical. Coincidentally the hcq treatment impacts the exact same receptor. But yeah, not spelled the same, one has a 2 on the end SARS2. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

1 minute ago, Ward Smith said:

The ACE2 receptor infection vector of both SARS is identical. Coincidentally the hcq treatment impacts the exact same receptor. But yeah, not spelled the same, one has a 2 on the end SARS2. 

I was refuting the following statement "A treatment effective with one SARS-CoV virus will therefore be effective with any SARS-CoV virus".

Never claimed the same treatment couldn't work on both SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2, or that there could be a cure common to all of them.

Just claimed that I can't exclude the possibility that a treatment that works for one SARS-CoV could be ineffective against with another.

Can you ?

Verdict: 

Strawman argument.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

19 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

People supporting a treatment like they support a football team. Controversial people like Raoult making unproven allegations and using populist rethoric. Low-quality studies.. Influencers promoting HCQ because they have an agenda. Cherry-picked lists, anecdotal evidence, correlation presented as proof, articles distorting results of clinical studies, fake news. People with strong political beliefs who seen everything from a political angle..Conspirationists seemingly deciding that HCQ is the miracle cure and THEY don't want people to be cured. Good faith actors spreading disinformation because they don't bother verify/factcheck.. Bad faith actors spreading and amplifying disinformation... 

All of this can turn some moderate people away from HCQ, discredit the medication, despite its potential merits.

All this drama is hurting the research and healthcare people taking care of covid-19 patients.. 

I'm not a naysayer, I'm just a skeptic. (think James Randi or Pen & Teller) 

Please tell me what course of treatment you would prescribe for yourself. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, Jim Profit said:

I was refuting the following statement "A treatment effective with one SARS-CoV virus will therefore be effective with any SARS-CoV virus".

Never claimed the same treatment couldn't work on both SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2, or that there could be a cure common to all of them.

Just claimed that I can't exclude the possibility that a treatment that works for one SARS-CoV could be ineffective against with another.

Can you ?

Verdict: 

Strawman argument.

There's a Bible verse about straining gnats that applies to you I think. 

Pedantry isn't in as high a demand as you might think

[ronwagn + 6,290]

21 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Madigan needs to go, Ron.  That SOB has strangled Illinois for decades.  I don't know anything about Pritzker, except that he is a billionaire and a Democrat, but it appears that he also does what Madigan bids.  Madigan is like the Illinois version of Hoover or something.  Does he have files on everyone?  It seems he can't be moved for some reason.

When the Demoncrats have the governor and both houses it is a free for all to see how much they can promise to the various government employees in return for their full support and votes. The taxpayers are considered to be milk cows for the governing class. The crony capitalists like Pritzker make more money through handing out favors to their buddies. The same thing happens at every government level city, state, and federal. The bigger the city the more advantages for liberals to hand out favors for financial support and votes. In Illinois, Republicans have done much of the same. Madigan has done a fine job of destroying our economy as leader of the House in Illinois. 

[Jim Profit + 46]

5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Please tell me what course of treatment you would prescribe for yourself. 

I wouldn't prescribe nothing for myself I'm unqualified.. 

A glass of wine maybe ?

[Jim Profit + 46]

10 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

[...] Demoncrats [...]

🙄

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,541]

48 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

When the Demoncrats have the governor and both houses it is a free for all to see how much they can promise to the various government employees in return for their full support and votes. The taxpayers are considered to be milk cows for the governing class. The crony capitalists like Pritzker make more money through handing out favors to their buddies. The same thing happens at every government level city, state, and federal. The bigger the city the more advantages for liberals to hand out favors for financial support and votes. In Illinois, Republicans have done much of the same. Madigan has done a fine job of destroying our economy as leader of the House in Illinois. 

Never going to happen...if the trend looks close you will see the actual greatest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen...Not be cute being as real as it gets.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

4 hours ago, ronwagn said:

When the Demoncrats have the governor and both houses it is a free for all to see how much they can promise to the various government employees in return for their full support and votes. The taxpayers are considered to be milk cows for the governing class. The crony capitalists like Pritzker make more money through handing out favors to their buddies. The same thing happens at every government level city, state, and federal. The bigger the city the more advantages for liberals to hand out favors for financial support and votes. In Illinois, Republicans have done much of the same. Madigan has done a fine job of destroying our economy as leader of the House in Illinois. 

Never going to happen...if the trend looks close you will see the actual greatest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen...Not be cute being as real as it gets.

Is that some kind of a bot response?  Doesn't fit or make sense, and the brief side conversation is specifically about Illinois government.

Maybe @Tom Kirkman would like to have a look.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,541]

17 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Is that some kind of a bot response?  Doesn't fit or make sense, and the brief side conversation is specifically about Illinois government.

Maybe @Tom Kirkman would like to have a look.

It's been a long day...I reside in the left coast of the US and that tends to make one just a smidge snappy..fly off the charts. 

Time for a slightly chilled bourbon.

 

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

7 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Never going to happen...if the trend looks close you will see the actual greatest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen...Not be cute being as real as it gets.

 

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Is that some kind of a bot response?  Doesn't fit or make sense, and the brief side conversation is specifically about Illinois government.

Maybe @Tom Kirkman would like to have a look.

 

3 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

It's been a long day...I reside in the left coast of the US and that tends to make one just a smidge snappy..fly off the charts. 

Time for a slightly chilled bourbon.

 

Nah, @Eyes Wide Open is very definitely not a bot.  Some of my own replies may seem non-sequitur on occasion, as my attempts at making a joke sometimes falls flat on its face.

Anyway, Eyes has an interesting and feisty posting history.  Prolly just had a brain fart reply after a long day. 

Enjoy your slightly chilled bourbon, Eyes : )

[UNC12345 + 171]

16 hours ago, Bob D said:

On 4/24/2020 at 10:19 PM, UNC12345 said:

I don't even blame him for the virus

It must be exhausting being you

 

 

 

It can be tiring Bob, yes. But maybe you can enlighten me on your point.  Always fun to discuss these things with someone who gets easily pissed off.  I think, when I wrote that I don't blame him for the virus, more accurately I meant that while many anti-Trump people trumpet the number of deaths, etc and blame that on Trump, I don't see it that way.  Obviously the virus itself is not his fault, so if that's what you are getting at, don't get your knickers in a knot.

[UNC12345 + 171]

I looked back through the multitude of posts on here (that is exhausting on its own) and found the one you quoted above.  I completely get why you left out the rest of it.  Good points made (two of them) and you have completely disregarded both of them and steered the discussion in another direction.  Nicely done!  Ignoring the obvious can also be exhausting Bob.

Do you have anything to say about the two things I asked you to admit?  I doubt it, but maybe?

Edited May 6, 2020 by UNC12345

[rackkk + 3]

deleted

Edited May 6, 2020 by rackkk

[rackkk + 3]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:44 AM, Yoshiro Kamamura said:

“Specifically, hydroxychloroquine use with or without co-administration of azithromycin did not improve mortality or reduce the need for mechanical ventilation in hospitalized patients,” they wrote. “On the contrary, hydroxychloroquine use alone was associated with an increased risk of mortality compared to standard care alone.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/study-of-hydroxychloroquine-trump-promoted-coronavirus-drug-finds-more-deaths?source=articles&via=rss

Observe the "glorious" leader Donald Trump with a fresh load of lies and evasions on the topic - because that's his method. Brush aside the expert advice, listen to loyalists, yes men and various interest group lobbyist, make random decisions, if they work, paint yourself a savior, if not, blame someone else. 

As long as the cult magic works - clap your hands, yesterday's lies are forgotten, today's lie becomes the tomorrow's truth. 

 

Sorry guys but no one here clearly understands the main intended use for hydroxychloroquine (with or without azithromycin) protocol.

It was first established by french epidemiologist Pr Didier Raoult to treat patients from various respiratory diseases. Chinese scientists have used first it as a first line treatment for both PROPHYLAXIS and EARLY TO MILD SARS-CoV-2 infections.

The professor has insisted that it isn't efficient anymore for severe or acute infections as THE IMMUNE SYSTEM ALREADY GOT RID OF THE VIRUS.

The patients respiratory distress at this level is cause by high levels of cytokines, i.e inflammation causing proteins produced by white blood cells to fight the virus, as their immune system has triggered an excessive reaction which ends up damaging lungs even more than the virus itself did.

All the Big Pharma funded studies tend to prove that this protocol is inefficient as it is deployed outside its intended usage (they even include palliative care i.e dying/agonizing patients within the studies). No drug can revive the dead. Indeed these companies want to sell patented drugs and, eventually, a vaccine, which would lead to several billions of dollars of revenue.

Clinical data from doctors using hydoxychloroquine (including azithromycin or not) within its purposed use : PROPHYLAXIS AND EARLY TO MILD INFECTION is similar everywhere in the world. This almost free, non patented drug literally crushes mortality rates. The public hospital of Pr Didier Raoult, in Marseille, France, has a net mortality rate of 0,5 percent, which is ridiculously low.

[tomstewa + 13]

There's no money to be made in Hydroxychloroquine as a solution.  So of course it will be disregarded no matter what.  All those billions would not need to be spent if a few million could purchase enough for the whole country. 

What a joke the medical field has become. Limit the doctors coming out of med school and have the pharmacy's get China to make their products at a very low cost (and possibly inferior). But if there is lots of research needed, you can create a guaranteed 20 year plan of unlimited drinking (high prices) at the trough to reimburse.

And how many of the studies turned out to be fraudulent during phased testing?

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,541]

5 minutes ago, tomstewa said:

There's no money to be made in Hydroxychloroquine as a solution.  So of course it will be disregarded no matter what.  All those billions would not need to be spent if a few million could purchase enough for the whole country. 

What a joke the medical field has become. Limit the doctors coming out of med school and have the pharmacy's get China to make their products at a very low cost (and possibly inferior). But if there is lots of research needed, you can create a guaranteed 20 year plan of unlimited drinking (high prices) at the trough to reimburse.

And how many of the studies turned out to be fraudulent during phased testing?

Lets add this to the mix...actually i find it has more credibility than the title to this thread

 

[surrept33 + 609]

3 hours ago, rackkk said:

Clinical data from doctors using hydoxychloroquine (including azithromycin or not) within its purposed use : PROPHYLAXIS AND EARLY TO MILD INFECTION is similar everywhere in the world. This almost free, non patented drug literally crushes mortality rates. The public hospital of Pr Didier Raoult, in Marseille, France, has a net mortality rate of 0,5 percent, which is ridiculously low.

Keep in mind that the latest retrospective study from China showed good results for HCQ for late state COVID patients (others have not): https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/04/hydroxychloroquine-update-may-4