A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Oh, but I think you do, if you're trying to corral an international consortium to ban trade with China. Colloquially, I don't think we plan on bombing Wuhan, or even Beijing, but they have to be punished. The world is in turmoil, even those places that deny it. They've all been assaulted by China, by Xi, by this virus. Whether or not it was genetically modified is almost beside the point. 

With each passing day, Wuhan, and China, and Xi whitewash their complicity. Wuhan went from being the international supplier of fentanyl and methamphetamine congeners to the international supplier of a killer virus . . . yet there is almost no international outrage. Why not? That sort of thing has to originate somewhere, become disseminated through repeated mentioning, and it stands to reason that the nation with the most deaths, the traditional watchdog for the world, perform that task. 

I'm saying that China, once again, could get away with its evil spawning ground. Every day that lapses is a good day for Mr. Xi. And that's bad for the rest of the world.

I don't think this would ever go anywhere.

First off, the only countries that would have any claim on this would be the countries that actually did a better job than China at combatting the virus. Germany, Canada, New Zealand, all the East Asian countries - they all should have a gripe because they all did the right thing and the virus has stricken their economies anyway. At one point most of Canada's infections came from the US, while a good percentage of Germany's came from Italy.  No matter how good they were it was impossible for them to keep at bay.

The US and UK and Southern Europeans cannot complain because China did a measurably worse job handling this than China did, and they all had much more warning than China did.

Then comes the trust deficit Trump has created in international relations. Trump has hit Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia with punitive tariffs which are still ongoing. All of these countries are large importer/exporter countries and want to maintain trading relationships. Trump has given them no reason to trust or respect him in any dealings, so they have every reason to buck the idea of sanctions on China.

Lastly, what is the reason for sanctions? Should the US have been punished for not containing H1N1? Africa was helped, not scolded, for its issues with Ebola. Same with the Zika problem in South America. Epidemics are tricky things. Now epidemiologists say there were 28,000 cases in just five US port cities by March 1st and that the first US death was Feb 6th. We might find their "wet" markets disgusting, but in reality they are just farmers markets that you find everywhere in the world.

This pandemic have started anywhere.  Making China sign the Treaty of Versailles and pay reparations for an event they managed poorly but with no evidence of maliciousness could backfire on us when we make a mistake.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Geoff Guenther
Fixed the sanctions/tariff mislabelling as Dan rightly pointed out.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

20 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Then comes the trust deficit Trump has created in international relations. Trump has hit Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia with trade sanctions which are still ongoing. All of these countries are large importer/exporter countries and want to maintain trading relationships. Trump has given them no reason to trust or respect him in any dealings, so they have every reason to buck the idea of sanctions on China.

Now Geoff.  You know the differences between sanctions, tariffs, duties, VAT and sales tax.  I recall you and I and @Jan van Eck had pretty lengthy discussions about all that many months ago.  It was clear that the EU had a number of ways of making U.S. goods more expensive going into Europe than European goods going into the U.S.  In some cases the difference was a percent or two and in other cases it was significant, but in almost every case goods and services from the U.S. were "taxed" at higher rates.  IMHO, President Trump was right for making his point.  The EU refused to relent and now there is this dispute with the EU pointing fingers at the U.S. while omitting the reality of the situation pre-Trump.

We can discuss it again if you like, but maybe that wasn't your main point in this discussion.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[UNC12345 + 171]

4 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

but I love how you people translate moron into reason for him.

Have to quote the above - so true. Tom, I try to respect what everyone says on here and especially you as you do a lot of posting, but if you are actually defending what Trump said in his press briefing/clown show yesterday about injecting disinfectant, then I don't know anymore.  That is simply indefensible.

Really?

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I don't think this would ever go anywhere.

First off, the only countries that would have any claim on this would be the countries that actually did a better job than China at combatting the virus. Germany, Canada, New Zealand, all the East Asian countries - they all should have a gripe because they all did the right thing and the virus has stricken their economies anyway. At one point most of Canada's infections came from the US, while a good percentage of Germany's came from Italy.  No matter how good they were it was impossible for them to keep at bay.

The US and UK and Southern Europeans cannot complain because China did a measurably worse job handling this than China did, and they all had much more warning than China did.

Then comes the trust deficit Trump has created in international relations. Trump has hit Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia with punitive tariffs which are still ongoing. All of these countries are large importer/exporter countries and want to maintain trading relationships. Trump has given them no reason to trust or respect him in any dealings, so they have every reason to buck the idea of sanctions on China.

Lastly, what is the reason for sanctions? Should the US have been punished for not containing H1N1? Africa was helped, not scolded, for its issues with Ebola. Same with the Zika problem in South America. Epidemics are tricky things. Now epidemiologists say there were 28,000 cases in just five US port cities by March 1st and that the first US death was Feb 6th. We might find their "wet" markets disgusting, but in reality they are just farmers markets that you find everywhere in the world.

This pandemic have started anywhere.  Making China sign the Treaty of Versailles and pay reparations for an event they managed poorly but with no evidence of maliciousness could backfire on us when we make a mistake.

How can you say 'measurably worse job than China'? What metric are you measuring this by, China's nonsense propaganda? I posted this on a thread but I'll repost here. 

https://www.ntd.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_447579.html?fbclid=IwAR104uZaBICkHp8pfwvpUO8fzDYGXfgQR8Yni_qp6P0V17CxSxUkZ8FGGwc

All these dictatorships manipulate perceptions of events at the outset. It’s the data points that come after they can’t control. The Soviets tried to cover up Chernobyl but they couldn't hide the giant steel and cement output needed to entomb the reactor core. It’ll be the same this time. If you want to know what really happened in China follow the data that's coming out now. No way in heck only 3,500 people died there.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, 0R0 said:

But to your point of freedom of speech, it is CNN's freedom of speech,  and it is your freedom to get your news elsewhere. 

Not really.  CNN is a corporation and as such is not a "person" in the original constitution sense.  Then, along came a group called "Citizens United" which filed some lawsuit to prevent corporate spending on political campaigns, and the (profoundly stupid) US Supreme Court came out with a decision, purely political in nature, that declared corporations to be "legal persons" and thus allowed to spend whatever they want on political campaigns.    that said, does CNN have "freedom of speech"?  Of course not.  However, in today's US political climate, nobody is going to throttle whatever CNN says or does not say, no matter how outrageous. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

Now Geoff.  You know the differences between sanctions, tariffs, duties, VAT and sales tax.  I recall you and I and @Jan van Eck had pretty lengthy discussions about all that many months ago.

I have superficially looked at the various comments in this thread and would say they are in error, specifically as respects various tariff matters and the US allowance of access to its market.   I'm not sure I want to get into it, but I will say that the idea that the USA limits Korean and European (German and French) access to US markets by discriminatory tariffs is wrongheaded.  The US does not, with the exception being specific product areas where US internal manufacturing is being dramatically harmed, such as in steel and aluminum.  For the rest, it is pretty much wide open.

Just for example, the US places no limits against Korean shipbuilding, which is in big trouble due to world over-capacity.  China made a concerted effort to be a big, if not dominant, player in shipbuilding, in large part to have a captive outlet for its plate steel; those yards faced bankruptcy and have been consolidated by the Communist government so as to avoid the embarrassment of actual bankruptcies.  In Korea, the Chaebol that control their giant shipyards benefit from being able to build non-military ships for US owners, albeit that they are registered in flags-of-convenience countries. The Americans let Korean cars and consumer goods such as washing machines in, basically duty-free, in the idea that it supports South Korea against North Korea.  For those political reasons, Korea has always had preferred access to domestic US markets.  Koreans have also benefited from easy travel and work access to the USA. All kinds of production machinery is built in Korea and is of excellent quality, and lots of that stuff gets sold in the USA, I think it is all duty-free.  But, that's politics for you. 

Admittedly a US buyer cannot buy a Korean-built ship, say a tanker or a containership, and flag it in the USA; that runs up against the old Jones Act, that restricts US coastal trade to US-built ships and US crews.  But few ships are operated that way; the Americans that are in the maritime industry all use flags of convenience, the great illustration of that are those gigantic cruise ships operating out of Florida, all built offshore and all registered offshore, mostly to be able to use cheap Philippine labor. So the American buyers are alolowed to skirt the spirit of the Jones Act in their buying of Korean vessels.  

Is Korean steel tariffed coming into the USA?  Yes, it is, unless specific waivers are granted.   But that is a new development, with the Trump Administration.  Previously, Korea enjoyed duty-free access of its steel into the USA, so to say that the US "tears up" its treaties allowing access to the US markets is a bit silly.  The US does not.   

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I don't think this would ever go anywhere.

First off, the only countries that would have any claim on this would be the countries that actually did a better job than China at combatting the virus. Germany, Canada, New Zealand, all the East Asian countries - they all should have a gripe because they all did the right thing and the virus has stricken their economies anyway. At one point most of Canada's infections came from the US, while a good percentage of Germany's came from Italy.  No matter how good they were it was impossible for them to keep at bay.

The US and UK and Southern Europeans cannot complain because China did a measurably worse job handling this than China did, and they all had much more warning than China did.

Then comes the trust deficit Trump has created in international relations. Trump has hit Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia with punitive tariffs which are still ongoing. All of these countries are large importer/exporter countries and want to maintain trading relationships. Trump has given them no reason to trust or respect him in any dealings, so they have every reason to buck the idea of sanctions on China.

Lastly, what is the reason for sanctions? Should the US have been punished for not containing H1N1? Africa was helped, not scolded, for its issues with Ebola. Same with the Zika problem in South America. Epidemics are tricky things. Now epidemiologists say there were 28,000 cases in just five US port cities by March 1st and that the first US death was Feb 6th. We might find their "wet" markets disgusting, but in reality they are just farmers markets that you find everywhere in the world.

This pandemic have started anywhere.  Making China sign the Treaty of Versailles and pay reparations for an event they managed poorly but with no evidence of maliciousness could backfire on us when we make a mistake.

Boy did you ever get it all upside down.

First, the actual pandemic handling is entirely irrelevant because had everyone followed China's official pronouncements, which many had, then they would have done far less than they had. For which they are all well beyond angry. Sweden is cutting China relationships off. Japan is subsidizing its companies abandoning China production. 

The malicious behavior on China's side is obvious. They were expected to halt the export of the virus via millions of flyers when they cut off Wuhan and Hubei. They didn't. There was as much Chinese travel as the rest of the world would have. That was malicious policy directly intended with purpose to spread the virus around the world. They used their economic and political clout to press countries to leave air travel from China open by downplaying the disease, the contagion, the transmission mechanism. That was the obvious problem. Obvious malice. 

Nobody wants to have any contact with China that they don't have to have. 

China is now using the PR cover of the pandemic to map out the energy resources of the other countries in the S China sea and even Australia. They are militarizing on the S China sea at an accelerated level. Preparing to take resources from countries' territories and have the means to hold on to them.

The US can join with the region's countries and has already started with Australia joining US Navy operations. Japan is coordinating its operations as well. It is just a question of time till the other countries will be pushed into US hands by China's aggression. The "aid" China is providing is not considered as help but a microscopic degree of reparation. China is trying to extract concessions in return for this pathetic counterproductive effort of medical assistance. They will get nothing in the long term but bitterness and resolve. It is up to the US in the person of Pompeo to coordinate a real defense response with China's victims. The transactional trade commitments for military protection that Trump had been attempting to negotiate have price tags that the EM and NIC countries there simply can not afford. Yet they have strategic value that the US, to the extent it is willing to continue engagement in the region. 

As @Wombat pointed out, Japan and Australia are intending to respond according to the US intentions and capacity. They suspect that the US, like the EU, is over-leveraged and financially weak. I don't think the US is in the kind of dead end situation Europe ex France is in  because of the overall steady demographics of NAFTA.

There is a reparations movement. There are rich targets for those. The Belt and Road facilities, the Chinese interests in various mines for key minerals, e.g. Cesium that will be geostrategic targets for nationalization sponsored by the West. The Chinese advantages in 5G are due to the monopoly on Cesium. It's advantage in EVs is due to tight control of the most productive mines. Both of these can be removed with a successful reparations action. US and British courts would be a proper avenue, though simple nationalizations justified as reparations don't require any international judicial action, only financial backing against the loss of Chinese cash.  

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

46 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Not really.  CNN is a corporation and as such is not a "person" in the original constitution sense.  Then, along came a group called "Citizens United" which filed some lawsuit to prevent corporate spending on political campaigns, and the (profoundly stupid) US Supreme Court came out with a decision, purely political in nature, that declared corporations to be "legal persons" and thus allowed to spend whatever they want on political campaigns.    that said, does CNN have "freedom of speech"?  Of course not.  However, in today's US political climate, nobody is going to throttle whatever CNN says or does not say, no matter how outrageous. 

That was a result of the 16th amendment. It didn't actually pass as the historical record shows more states rejected it than passed it at the time. But the ever wily Colonel House stood in congress and brazenly read a fake list of approvals to declare it passed.  All before the US joined WWI.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

3 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

We might find their "wet" markets disgusting, but in reality they are just farmers markets that you find everywhere in the world.

Yeah, I used to go to Farmer's Markets all the time and pick out a nice bat for dinner. At one I found the loveliest Pangolin, just aching for the boiling pot. And the civet cats at the Santa Monica market are the best!

Which universe so you live in, Geoff?

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

28 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The malicious behavior on China's side is obvious. They were expected to halt the export of the virus via millions of flyers when they cut off Wuhan and Hubei. They didn't. There was as much Chinese travel as the rest of the world would have. That was malicious policy directly intended with purpose to spread the virus around the world. They used their economic and political clout to press countries to leave air travel from China open by downplaying the disease, the contagion, the transmission mechanism. That was the obvious problem. Obvious malice. 

And the spread of the virus from New York into the rest of the US looks like the spread of the virus from Wuhan to the rest of the world. The malicious behaviour of New Yorkers or of Trump is obvious. Well, not really. Wuhan is bigger than New York.  Both of them are massive hubs. New York probably had 5,000 infections before anyone knew they were infected.

Why do some Americans think of everything in terms of war? Don't you ever get tired of guns and wish that people could just be nice, like they are in most countries?

This is a crisis which no country is singularly able to solve. China will be shipping well over 3 billion facemasks each month starting next month. It's something no place else on earth could have ramped up so quickly. We need China to help stem the crisis, but the current Administration is going to pretend they're great warriors and try to get support by playing the race card. SMH

[0R0 + 6,251]

2 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

How can you say 'measurably worse job than China'? What metric are you measuring this by, China's nonsense propaganda? I posted this on a thread but I'll repost here. 

https://www.ntd.com/the-closing-of-21-million-cell-phone-accounts-in-china-may-suggest-a-high-ccp-virus-death-toll_447579.html?fbclid=IwAR104uZaBICkHp8pfwvpUO8fzDYGXfgQR8Yni_qp6P0V17CxSxUkZ8FGGwc

All these dictatorships manipulate perceptions of events at the outset. It’s the data points that come after they can’t control. The Soviets tried to cover up Chernobyl but they couldn't hide the giant steel and cement output needed to entomb the reactor core. It’ll be the same this time. If you want to know what really happened in China follow the data that's coming out now. No way in heck only 3,500 people died there.

The death toll in Wuhan is on the scale of 100k to 160k, by cell phone account disappearance (the high number) and by funeral home operations and urn deliveries for the lower number. We went over the reports as they were leaking out in Feb and Mar. 

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

5 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Yeah, I used to go to Farmer's Markets all the time and pick out a nice bat for dinner. At one I found the loveliest Pangolin, just aching for the boiling pot. And the civet cats at the Santa Monica market are the best!

Which universe so you live in, Geoff?

I've been to farmers markets and had street food in Africa, Vietnam, around Europe. You think they're much different? Just because in America everyone wants everything sanitised doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that. Besides, how do you know that that pig you bought for the spit roast hadn't just eaten bat guano?

If that's your only point, I think it's pretty weak.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The death toll in Wuhan is on the scale of 100k to 160k, by cell phone account disappearance (the high number) and by funeral home operations and urn deliveries for the lower number. We went over the reports as they were leaking out in Feb and Mar.

Those numbers make more sense to me than the official ones, yes.

In comparison, the US has over 50,000 deaths and is 4 times smaller than China, its death rate is already much higher and growing rapidly. And the US had two extra months to prepare for an epidemic than China did. So it's fair to say that the US has done a measurably worse job.

[surrept33 + 609]

12 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The death toll in Wuhan is on the scale of 100k to 160k, by cell phone account disappearance (the high number) and by funeral home operations and urn deliveries for the lower number. We went over the reports as they were leaking out in Feb and Mar. 

 

Isn't there maybe a different answer to the disappearing cell phone account mystery (which seems to not be localized to wuhan)?

https://apnews.com/afs:Content:8717250566

That's not to say that there isn't likely coverups and malfeasance that's happened in China. In particular, it looks like a lot of the safeguards that were put in China after SARSv1 didn't work out so well.

Edited April 24, 2020 by surrept33

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

1 minute ago, Geoff Guenther said:

If that's your only point, I think it's pretty weak.

Okay, reasonable point, but the Chinese can't have it both ways. They assured the world that the Covid-19 virus came from the wet market in Wuhan. Lots of people think it came out of the Wuhan Level 4 lab. But let's just say it came from the wet market. It is a well known fact that bats are loaded down with rabies, coronaviruses of every type, and even carry Marburg without apparent danger to the bat. And there is apparently a Chinese affinity for bats, which are brought into wet markets. 

So, let's see here, we've got a farmer's market that sells wild animals that are loaded with dangerous viruses known to become zoonotic. This argument is so silly it's preposterous. Sure, I've gone to farmer's markets all across the world too, but I've never come across one that sold bats, stressed out, in cages. Nor civet cats or pangolins. If a particular type of "Farmer's Market" is endangering the world, that market has to change its ways. 

Or maybe it wasn't the wet market. Perhaps it's just a harmless little farmer's market and the virus really came out of the lab . . . .

[El Nikko + 2,145]

How is everyone not getting over this already?

It's a done deal, the models were so wrong and we've destroyed our economy.

Time to start figuring how the hell we can fix this mess...

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

And the spread of the virus from New York into the rest of the US looks like the spread of the virus from Wuhan to the rest of the world. The malicious behaviour of New Yorkers or of Trump is obvious. Well, not really. Wuhan is bigger than New York.  Both of them are massive hubs. New York probably had 5,000 infections before anyone knew they were infected.

Why do some Americans think of everything in terms of war? Don't you ever get tired of guns and wish that people could just be nice, like they are in most countries?

This is a crisis which no country is singularly able to solve. China will be shipping well over 3 billion facemasks each month starting next month. It's something no place else on earth could have ramped up so quickly. We need China to help stem the crisis, but the current Administration is going to pretend they're great warriors and try to get support by playing the race card. SMH

Not in the slightest. 

NY did not hide anything. It behaved no different than anyone else, and was one of 7 to 14 ports that have China flights. The only reason travel was not halted was the lies from China. 

Again, China DOES HAVE a belligerent bioweapons program and intent to use it for its benefit regardless of the cost to its own people.  @Marcin suspects that it was not an accidental release. That they started the release domestically he considers as a good PR cover to make it appear as if it were not a bio-warfare attack so that they can avoid retaliation. Because of the actions they actually did take, regardless of the nature of the virus and its release, they are on the hook for a biowarfare attack with malicious intent and inexcusable genocidal behaviors. Regardless of the incompetence of any government response anywhere, including ignoring the thing entirely and let the dead bodies pile up as they may, it is exclusively the fault of China's CCP and government leadership, and its hangers on and agents in the WHO, in the Democratic party and corporate businesses and their equivalents in all of Europe, the developing markets and African and central Asian client states of the BRI. 

China has so lost this battle of looking innocent it had to cut off people's comunications with the outside world entirely where they can't be intercepted readily, as in interactive computer games. They can't afford to have the broadly anti CCP rhetoric in common international personal communications to permeate domestic perceptions. 

It is an indication that popular discourse lays the blame on China's CCP overwhelmingly.

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

5 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Okay, reasonable point, but the Chinese can't have it both ways. They assured the world that the Covid-19 virus came from the wet market in Wuhan. Lots of people think it came out of the Wuhan Level 4 lab. But let's just say it came from the wet market. It is a well known fact that bats are loaded down with rabies, coronaviruses of every type, and even carry Marburg without apparent danger to the bat. And there is apparently a Chinese affinity for bats, which are brought into wet markets. 

So, let's see here, we've got a farmer's market that sells wild animals that are loaded with dangerous viruses known to become zoonotic. This argument is so silly it's preposterous. Sure, I've gone to farmer's markets all across the world too, but I've never come across one that sold bats, stressed out, in cages. Nor civet cats or pangolins. If a particular type of "Farmer's Market" is endangering the world, that market has to change its ways. 

Or maybe it wasn't the wet market. Perhaps it's just a harmless little farmer's market and the virus really came out of the lab . . . .

I agree that they need to stop the practice. In reality, most wet markets that you come across in China don't sell anything exotic either. The most exotic ones are the really expensive ones that I don't have the money to attend 😞

[0R0 + 6,251]

10 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Those numbers make more sense to me than the official ones, yes.

In comparison, the US has over 50,000 deaths and is 4 times smaller than China, its death rate is already much higher and growing rapidly. And the US had two extra months to prepare for an epidemic than China did. So it's fair to say that the US has done a measurably worse job.

Wuhan had 11 million people at the shutdown. That means the IFR for Wuhan, where the bulk of the infections were, was far higher than in the US. Again, I question your analysis as it seems to be aimed at delivering an argument rather than estimating reality.

They piled up the infected in with uninfected to produce ideal spread conditions to ill people and the elderly. There are reports of people dying in their isolation having been locked in by CCP building committees and them failing to provide food and medications. 

The appropriate view is that China was willing to let Wuhan starve, and it would have if they didn't have the port to supply it with food and materials without human contact. 

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

NY did not hide anything. It behaved no different than anyone else, and was one of 7 to 14 ports that have China flights. The only reason travel was not halted was the lies from China. 

As I've said through Feb and March - Trump lied the entire way through, telling people there was no risk, telling them to go to work, telling them it was just a flu, telling them to try hydroxycloroquine, telling them to try injesting bleach.

He did everything except do his job, which was to make sure the country was ready for an epidemic. And when the states tried to start ordering things he'd just outbid them.

Anyone who is going to talk about malice on the part of the Chinese will have to accept equivalent malice on the part of the Trump administration. I happen to think that both are fed with a combination of corruption and incompetence instead.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

3 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Because of the actions they actually did take, regardless of the nature of the virus and its release, they are on the hook for a biowarfare attack with malicious intent and inexcusable genocidal behaviors.

Very well put!

This was indeed the "DIRTY BOMB" of popular lore. 

In an age when genetic engineering is being used extensively to feed the world, it is naive to think that genetic engineering would not be used for purposes of terrorizing the world. And that is precisely what was done. 

For purposes of consideration, it makes very little difference whether the virus was native and mutated to novel or native and manipulated to become more infectious and/or lethal. The fact of the matter is that after it was released--encouraged in its diaspora by Wuhan travelers all over the globe--Chairman Xi lied about its infectivity even as he cornered the market on PPE and sent us defective testing kits. 

This is the worst form of bioterrorism. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

13 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Okay, reasonable point, but the Chinese can't have it both ways. They assured the world that the Covid-19 virus came from the wet market in Wuhan. Lots of people think it came out of the Wuhan Level 4 lab. But let's just say it came from the wet market. It is a well known fact that bats are loaded down with rabies, coronaviruses of every type, and even carry Marburg without apparent danger to the bat. And there is apparently a Chinese affinity for bats, which are brought into wet markets. 

 

As it turns out, the Wet Market in Wuhan did not have the frontier food you refer to with stacks of wildlife in cages, but was simply the meat processing and shopping center for the city. Nobody had bat soup on the menu and it did not appear on any area restaurant menu nor items advertised in inventory. So that is likely no dice as to the natural origin. 

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Anyone who is going to talk about malice on the part of the Chinese will have to accept equivalent malice on the part of the Trump administration.

You're walking on the ledge of sedition, Geoff. I don't think you really want to do that. Yes, there's freedom of speech but when you speak to incite, well there you are, out there on that ledge. 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

3 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

As I've said through Feb and March - Trump lied the entire way through, telling people there was no risk, telling them to go to work, telling them it was just a flu, telling them to try hydroxycloroquine, telling them to try injesting bleach.

He did everything except do his job, which was to make sure the country was ready for an epidemic. And when the states tried to start ordering things he'd just outbid them.

Anyone who is going to talk about malice on the part of the Chinese will have to accept equivalent malice on the part of the Trump administration. I happen to think that both are fed with a combination of corruption and incompetence instead.

beep beep boop boop beep

Go back to work

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

Just now, Gerry Maddoux said:

You're walking on the ledge of sedition, Geoff. I don't think you really want to do that. Yes, there's freedom of speech but when you speak to incite, well there you are, out there on that ledge. 

You mean like how Trump was inciting protesters in Michigan to break their lock in?

Look, Trump pushes hydroxychloroquine which kills a few people in tests and the testing is stopped. Instead of backing the scientists trying to do research, he starts peddling bleach for the same thing. How is that not malice and/or incompetence? I can't see how that can do anything but hurt Americans.