A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

18 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

When anyone starts going after the Chinese for the "wet markets" it starts getting a racial tinge which should be avoided. If we called them "less sanitary farmers markets" I would be happier because it is more descriptive and doesn't cast Chinese as a weird group.

I completely agree, though, that Chinese government should begin regulating these better.

And yes, my wife is of Chinese heritage.

BS.  I made clear that I believe it is the Chinese government's job to eradicate practices in their markets that lead to virus outbreaks that spread around the world.  That does NOT say anything about the Chinese people.  There is no racism here.  You didn't come up with that yourself, I'm betting you picked it up from the so-called MSM.  Finally, it is only your perception that anyone here is casting the Chinese as a weird group.  They eat some weird stuff, but then again I like beef jerky.

Please ask your wife to forgive the loud mei-guo gwei-dzi ren.  Wo men bu shi hwai dan, shi jenda.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

50 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

BS.  I made clear that I believe it is the Chinese government's job to eradicate practices in their markets that lead to virus outbreaks that spread around the world.  That does NOT say anything about the Chinese people.  There is no racism here.  You didn't come up with that yourself, I'm betting you picked it up from the so-called MSM.  Finally, it is only your perception that anyone here is casting the Chinese as a weird group.  They eat some weird stuff, but then again I like beef jerky.

Please ask your wife to forgive the loud mei-guo gwei-dzi ren.  Wo men bu shi hwai dan, shi jenda.

Do not let word salad insult your sense's...if one takes a close look at the testing argument you will find it is impossible to achieve the numbers posted. While it may be possible to test 500000 in a month it is impossible to get those results.. Just use 15 minutes a test as a beginning along with a 24 hour turn around if that is possible...It a fairy tale of epic proportion's almost beyond human comprehension..

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, 0R0 said:

As it turns out, the Wet Market in Wuhan did not have the frontier food you refer to with stacks of wildlife in cages, but was simply the meat processing and shopping center for the city. Nobody had bat soup on the menu and it did not appear on any area restaurant menu nor items advertised in inventory. So that is likely no dice as to the natural origin. 

Sorry, but I don't think you or anyone else can say there were no bats for sale in that or any other Chinese market.

[UNC12345 + 171]

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

He never told anyone to inject disinfectant.

 

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Yes, even he admits that he has tried at EVERY chance he gets to bring hope and let the people know he is trying HIS best to get things figured out.

I would have so much more respect for Trump supporters if you would just admit when he does and says stupid things. Just laugh about it and admit that's who he is.  When you constantly try and defend him and turn what he's saying into something else, you look as silly as him.

Admit #1:  He called it no worse than the flu and it would miraculously go away.  This was stupid, uninformed and he should not have said it. He was in no way trying to bring people hope.  That's revisionist history.

Admit #2: You are correct, he never told anyone to inject disinfectant, but he certainly hinted that it was an "interesting" idea.  That is just f'ing stupid, moronic and dangerous actually.  Saying he was showing he is open to all ideas as your explanation (not quoted above but in your post)?  Please I beg you!  It is not defensible, so stop trying. 

I don't even blame him for the virus or a lot of the fallout - it caught the world by storm.  But he almost needs a multi-colored clown wig up there these days.

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Oh, so the buck doesn't stop with him. Poor little Donald, he was told incorrect things from the CDC.

The dumbest things that I hear Trumpists say are "it was a joke" and "it wasn't his fault". Guess what? Any other president goes by "the buck stops here."

He's a president that fires any staff that are smarter than him and refuses to listen to anyone that says anything he doesn't like. The buck stops with him.

That's how it always works, isn't it Geoff?  Like when a technician or department head screws up and someone gets killed on the floor.  Then, their manager says the buck stops with the CEO.  Then, the CEO is of course castigated and the incompetent employee and his boss keep their jobs.

Yah!  I've seen a lot of that.

Fact is, you are right, other presidents did say the buck stops with them.  And then they fired the incompetent underling(s)!  Trump didn't say it, and that makes you mad.  Tough tooties.  Whether you believe Trump's underling(s) was or were incompetent, or not, is simply immaterial.  

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Any mid-sized company should have a risk strategy. I took a team through a hurricane in Houston and we had the traders up and running two days before any of our competition. And we made good money because we actually planned.

Arguably, the president's most important job is in keeping Americans safe. If it looks like there's something that could be disastrous for the country and there's a 10% chance it could happen his entire team should be sweating to mitigate the problem. That is really simple risk management.

How detrimental is the risk if it comes to fruition, how likely is it to happen, and what is the cost and options to mitigate? Every middle manager has come across this.

For a guy whose primary responsibility is to keep Americans safe it's pretty shambolic.

Oh brother.  Do you have any idea, I mean did you even stop to think about, how far down the chain your little scenario is for a President of a country like the United States?  Just try to keep in mind that the media is not in the business, at least not at this time with this President, of making YOU understand what the U.S. Government has done to prepare or are doing now.  Their job is to tell you what to be scared of and who's to blame.  Anyway, Geoff, the following is an example, only a portion, of what's in place and what any sitting President can expect to call on, and what's been put into place since this unprecedented crisis began (I know you think he just sits in the Oval Office, tweeting, but there are actually people working in the White House and a few other agencies):

United States - Federal

Many federal agencies are responsible for various aspects of emergency preparedness and response. The HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan (November 2005) prepared by the Department of Health and Human Services provides a summary of major pandemic preparedness roles of HHS officials, agencies and divisons (Table 3). The section on HHS Actions for Pandemic Influenza Preparedness and Response summarizes key actions and responsible agencies by pandemic phase. Roles played by other federal departments are not detailed in the plan, nor are the coordination and communication amongst departments and agencies. A brief description of the roles played by HHS officials, agencies and divisions is as follows. For a more detailed list, please refer toTable 3 of the HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan (November 2005):

• Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
  • Secretary of Health and Human Services
    Directs all HHS pandemic response activities.
     
  • Office of Assistant Secretary for Health (ASH) Coordinates HHS pandemic activities and monitors progress.
     
  • Office of the Assistant Secretary for Public Health Emergency Preparedness(OPHEP)
    Coordinates HHS response activities with other federal departments and agencies.
     
  • National Vaccine Program Office (NVPO)
    Coordinates development and revisions of the pandemic preparedness and response plan; coordinates and monitors preparedness activities during the inter-pandemic period, reporting to ASH; coordinates HHS agencies on vaccine issues via the Interagency Vaccine Group (IAVG).
     
  • Office of the General Counsel (OGC) Advises on law related to key pandemic response activities.
     
  • Office of the Assistant Secretary of Public Affairs (ASPA)
    Develops communications plan including public messages and materials.
     
  • Office of Global Health Affairs (OGHA) Oversees interactions with other governments and international organizations related to pandemic preparedness.
     
  • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
    Works with partners throughout the nation and the world to monitor health, detect and investigate health problems; develops, evaluates and modifies disease control and prevention strategies; stockpiles antiviral drugs and other essential materials; promotes and supports influenza vaccination programs. The Influenza Pandemic Operation Plan (OPLAN) is published by the CDC.
     
  • Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
    Regulates and licenses vaccines and antiviral agents through the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research and the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, respectively; develops influenza viral reference strains and reagents and makes them available to manufacturers for vaccine development and evaluation.
     
  • National Institutes of Health (NIH)
    Conducts and supports biomedical research, including vaccine research and development.
     
  • Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
    Oversees the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program; coordinates planning for health care and hospital surge capacity and emergency preparedness.
     
  • Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) Promotes and supports influenza vaccination for Medicare patients' fosters improved delivery of influenza vaccination to hospitalized pneumonia patients.
     
  • National Vaccine Advisory Committee (NVAC)
    The NVAC is made up of 15 members appointed for rotating four-year terms by the Director of the NVP in consultation with the National Academy of Sciences, from among individuals who are engaged in vaccine research or the manufacture of vaccines; or who are physicians, members of parent organizations concerned with immunizations, or representatives of state or local health agencies or public health organizations. The Committee advises the Assistant Secretary for Health (ASH) on pandemic preparedness from perspectives of the multiple stakeholders including in the committee membership.
     
  • Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC)
    Advises the Commissioner of Food and Drugs in discharging his responsibilities as they relate to helping to ensure safe and effective biological products, and as required, any other product for which the FDA has regulatory responsibility.
    
     
• Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
  Has the overall authority for emergency response activities and will coordinate interventions to maintain community services during a pandemic.
   
• Department of Defense (DoD) and Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
  Provides surge capacity of medical equipment, materials and personnel when needed during an emergency.
   
• Department of Agriculture (USDA) Conducts surveillance for influenza in domestic animals.
   
• Department of Energy (DOE) and Department of Transportation (DOT)
  Maintains infrastructure during a pandemic.
   
• Department of Interior (DOI)
  Responsible for ensuring public health on more than 500 million acres of land across the country.

And then there is also this from the U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO):

Overview

As a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, all 50 states and almost all U.S. districts and territories have federally-approved major disaster declarations. These allow the federal government to provide funding and coordinate other response activities.

Several laws have been made to provide such funding and mobilize federal resources to help. One law, the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act, requires GAO to report on our oversight of spending through the Act

• 90 days after enactment
• Bimonthly through the first year

In addition, GAO is required to oversee the programs covered by the CARES Act, the Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act, and the Families First Coronavirus Response Act.

As part of our oversight, we draw on the lessons learned from our broad portfolio of work on how the federal government can prepare for, respond to, and help people recover from disasters and pandemics.

What follows are updates on GAO’s pandemic funding oversight, and the lessons learned and open recommendations from our past work that federal agencies can implement now.

---

Oversight of Pandemic Funding

We will update this website as we release our reports on CARES Act oversight.

Report Suspected Fraud

You can help us monitor the spending from the record $2 trillion stimulus package. If you suspect waste, fraud, or abuse of stimulus funds, report your concerns through FraudNet. Read April 10 press release.

 

Report Fraud

---

Lessons Learned

We have reported on ways that the federal government has prepared for a number of infectious diseases, viruses, and biological threats during the past decade—including Zika, Ebola, avian influenza, and H1N1 pandemic influenza.

Additionally, we have examined past disaster funding and recommended several improvements. We have also done extensive work that sheds light on the likely cascading effects of the pandemic response on the rest of society—on people’s livelihoods, living conditions, and more. And we have examined the federal aid that can help people recover from disasters. What follows also includes lessons learned and open recommendations that federal agencies can implement now.

Preparedness

We’ve done work on several ways that the federal government prepares agencies, state and local governments, and some industries for public health crises like the COVID-19 pandemic.

Research. Our Science & Tech Spotlight: Coronaviruses discusses the 7 strains of coronavirus that are known to cause illness in humans—including the most recent coronavirus disease, COVID-19. It’s a brief primer on how coronaviruses work, diagnostics, and research on vaccines and treatments.

Greater public access to the results of federally funded research could help to speed the dissemination of knowledge about infectious diseases—accelerating development of vaccines and treatments. However, we’ve previously noted that nontraditional researchers, entrepreneurs, and industry may not typically have the same kind of access to federally funded research results (both publications and data) as academic researchers.

In 2013, certain federal agencies were directed to create plans for increasing access to publications and data they funded. We made 37 recommendations to 16 agencies to address these and other issues.

The National Biodefense Strategy. This strategy and implementation guidance was issued in 2018. It spells out the nation’s plan to prepare for threats like COVID-19. We testified about how well the strategy has worked so far. For example, we found there are no clear processes, roles, or responsibilities for joint decision-making. In February, we made 4 recommendations, including that the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS, the lead agency for the strategy) clearly document how it’s going to ensure interagency coordination.

Medical facilities, personnel, equipment. HHS is also the lead agency for coordinating federal efforts for a public health emergency response. A large federal disaster response was required to address the catastrophic hurricane damage in the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico in 2017. This response included HHS providing medical personnel and facilities and evacuating critical care and dialysis patients. We identified shortcomings in HHS’s efforts, such as insufficient staffing at emergency operations centers that contributed to confusion over the status of evacuated patients. We made 7 recommendations, including that HHS ensure adequate staffing.

Many people are concerned that the nation’s health care system may not be able to care for a sudden influx of patients. Other public health workers may also need extra help. HHS can temporarily reassign its personnel to state and local health departments to help with emergency response. We recommended communicating about this authority with the HHS agencies whose personnel are likely to be reassigned.

State and local governments, agencies. Over a 15-year period, Congress provided about $3 billion to respond to specific infectious disease threats, such as Zika, Ebola, and H1N1 pandemic influenza. HHS awarded an additional $18 billion for more general public health preparedness and capacity-building activities, such as getting ready for infectious disease threats and terrorist events.

We assessed the preparedness efforts of states and others and found mixed results. For example, most responder protection and coordination efforts met goals, but efforts were less consistent in three other areas: electronic lab reporting, epidemiology capacity, and laboratory capacity. Preparedness at the nonfederal level is particularly important because many of the resources needed to combat biological threats, such as an outbreak of a novel virus, are at the nonfederal level.

Aviation system. Staying home and washing your hands thoroughly and frequently are ways to slow the spread of viruses. But if you have to travel, bear in mind that air travel has the potential to spread infectious diseases farther and faster than other modes of transportation. A comprehensive federal plan for the U.S. aviation system’s preparedness is needed to help prevent and contain the spread of disease.

Airlines and airports have individual plans to handle flights with infected passengers, but an epidemic may require involvement from multiple airports on a national level. We recommended that the Department of Transportation work with stakeholders like the Department of Homeland Security to develop a plan.

Response

If the President declares a pandemic as a major disaster, the federal government is allowed to provide funding and coordinate other response activities.

Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).FEMA leads the overall federal response during emergencies and disasters. However, we have testified on the challenges in federal preparedness capabilities and FEMA’s workforce. Specifically, FEMA had not completed a comprehensive and measurable national preparedness assessment of capability gaps—for example, the amount of resources required to save lives, protect property and the environment, and meet basic human needs after an incident has occurred. We also previously reported on long-standing FEMA workforce management challenges, such as ensuring an adequately-staffed and trained workforce.

Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). While FEMA leads disaster relief efforts, HHS is responsible for leading the coordination of a medical and public health response. However, we have reported on shortcomings in HHS’s public health and medical services response following the 2017 hurricanes in the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. Specifically, HHS did not have a full understanding of the capabilities and limitations of its support agencies, such as the Department of Defense.

Consequently, teams specialized in trauma and surgical care were sent to the territories as part of the response, but not the chronic and primary care specialties that they needed. We recommended, among other things, that HHS develop agreements with support agencies that include response capability and limitation information.

Economic interventions. The federal government historically has intervened in financial markets during times of economic crisis—from the Great Depression to the 1980s Savings and Loan crisis to the most recent financial crisis. Following the 2008 financial crisis, we expanded on a set of guiding principles for when the federal government is considering intervening in private markets to avert a systemic crisis.

Specifically, the government could follow the principles we’ve previously identified (i.e., identifying and defining the problem, determining a national interest and setting clear goals, and protecting the government’s and taxpayers’ interests), as well as adhering to 5 additional principles based on the federal government’s experience with the 2008 financial crisis.

Department of State (State). We’ve reported that the protection of American citizens overseas, including the provision of emergency services, is one of State’s primary functions—including in the event of medical emergencies. For example, in circumstances where a citizen is critically injured or ill overseas and a local physician determines the citizen is stable for travel, State officials help families in arranging medical evacuation.

We have also previously examined how State prepares overseas diplomatic posts for crises and to conduct evacuations of official personnel and their family members. Such evacuations can be triggered by various situations, including health crises. For example, in 2014, State ordered the departure of embassy personnel’s family members from Monrovia, Liberia, and Freetown, Sierra Leone, during the West Africa Ebola outbreak.

Recovery

All of the lifestyle changes that people may adopt to slow the spread of a pandemic disease aren’t happening in a vacuum. They will have a cascading effect throughout the rest of society—on people’s livelihoods, living conditions, and more. Federal aid can help people cope.

Business disruptions. The Small Business Administration announced March 12 that it would use disaster assistance loans to help small businesses affected by COVID-19. We recently looked at how SBA responded to Hurricanes Harvey, Irma, and Maria in 2017. After each of these hurricanes, SBA accepted between 100,000 and 125,000 loan applications. We may expect to see a higher volume of applications for assistance under the coronavirus because it’s a nationwide issue. We will have to wait to see how the new process involving state and territorial governors will work. Check out our WatchBlog post from mid-March to learn more.

Unemployment. How many millions of U.S. workers are employed in the gig economy, where they hold nontraditional, part-time, and temporary jobs to make ends meet? Long story short: it’s hard to tell. The Bureau of Labor Statistics measures the number of workers, but the numbers do not reflect the full scale of unemployment because of the difficulty in measuring the gig or nontraditional workforce. As we see people staying home and employers temporarily shuttering their businesses, there could be repercussions for unknown numbers of gig employees and other workers.

During the last recession (2007-2009), about half of the 15 million U.S. workers who lost their jobs received unemployment insurance benefits. Another recession looms in the shadow of COVID-19, so unemployment insurance programs may once again play an important role in helping people make ends meet. During the last recession, we reported that low-wage workers were less likely to receive unemployment insurance than higher-wage workers. We identified several possibilities for why this might be—including that they potentially did not meet minimum earnings requirements or had to quit a job due to a family hardship. We also noted that policies differed in some states.

Childhood hunger. Schools across the nation are closing or closed in an effort to slow the spread of COVID-19. But many children rely on school meals as a daily food source. We’ve examined the Summer Food Service Program, which provides children in low-income areas with nutritious meals when school is not in session. Normally, these meals must be served to children in a group setting and children must eat the meals on site (at locations such as schools, parks, and libraries). However, states can seek flexibility on this requirement from USDA. As unanticipated school closures continue as a pandemic response, states may seek such flexibilities to help ensure healthy meals continue to be provided to children safely.

Support for older Americans. Adults over age 60 are especially at risk if they contract the virus. So what services are available to help them during a pandemic? In our report on services for rural older adults, we found that rural aging agencies and service providers have long been confronting some of the same issues now facing older adults everywhere with the onset of COVID-19. For instance, older adults in rural areas may face challenges related to access to services, long distances and dispersed populations, limited transportation options, and a lack of service providers.

Emergency funding. Lessons learned from the oversight of emergency funds for hurricanes and climate disasters can be applied to coronavirus aid packages. We reported that the government needs a strategy for disaster relief oversight to ensure agencies have plans in place to spend their disaster relief funds efficiently. We reviewed plans submitted by 6 agencies along with the Office of Management and Budget guidance, and found OMB didn’t have a strategy for ensuring that agencies provide sufficient, useful plans in a timely manner. We recommended that OMB develop such a strategy.

Additional Resources

GAO’s WatchBlog also walks you through the agency’s work on COVID-19 preparedness, response, and recovery.

To learn more about COVID-19 and what the U.S. government is doing, visit
https://www.coronavirus.gov, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus, and https://www.usa.gov/coronavirus.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Still with me, Geoff?  At the link is another good list for you from the Federal News Network.  It gives you some idea of all the agencies taking action and how they are actually managing, all things the President has to personally oversee (Just kidding, Geoff.  The President should be able to rely on these people doing their jobs, which I am absolutely positive most of them are.):

CORONAVIRUS RESOURCE: FIND OUT WHAT YOUR AGENCY IS PLANNING

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

6 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I've been to farmers markets and had street food in Africa, Vietnam, around Europe. You think they're much different? Just because in America everyone wants everything sanitised doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that. Besides, how do you know that that pig you bought for the spit roast hadn't just eaten bat guano?

If that's your only point, I think it's pretty weak.

Farmers markets are different than wild game markets. Most of the world, including the US, stopped wild game marketing quite a while ago (sooner in the West but others followed) due to the spread of diseases. Unless your visiting some especially backwater places you won't find wild game markets. Even China finally got the message.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532723-900-china-has-shut-all-of-its-wild-animal-markets-it-was-long-overdue/

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-bans-wildlife-trade-consumption-coronavirus-2020-2

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Still there, Geoff?  I'll share one more, rather exhaustive, list of actions from the folks at USA.gov:

Government Response to Coronavirus, COVID-19

Just one question, my friend:  Do you think it's possible that anybody in all that bureaucracy might be opposed to all things Trump or, maybe more importantly, has a personal agenda (you know, a core set of personal beliefs) opposite of the current elected government?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Sorry, Geoff.  You mentioned that you thought the President should have a General or Generals running things and coordinating the heck out of things.  I think you meant that he or they should be doing so instead of the President, but you see, here's the thing: our system of government doesn't work that way.  Nevertheless, I wanted to personally assure you that we do in fact have ALL of our Generals working on this crisis, while also maintaining their normal mission duties (it's a lot of work for them, Geoff, but they are doing it just as you asked).  So here is your link to the U.S. Joint Chiefs' website so you can get some idea how all of the U.S. Military is also working tirelessly to beat this damn virus, among other things:

https://www.jcs.mil/

Official Website of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark A. Milley on Coronavirus
 

“We are at war. It’s a different type of war, but a war, nonetheless. And we are the United States military and we will prevail in this war, both as a nation and as the Armed Forces.”

''This is not the first challenge the United States has ever faced. This is not the first war we've ever been in...We will get through this through solid leadership, caring for our troops and keeping focus on the mission."

"We are committed to the health and safety of you and our families...We are the world's finest fighting force and it's because of you. Keep your eye on the mission and take care of yourselves and each other."

“The impact on uniformed military is very minimal...We are also preparing to help--Whatever the nation needs...We're able to support other agencies, as necessary, and as required by the President and Congress."

"[Taking care of soldiers and families is] one of the top priorities of the secretary of defense, it's one of the top priorities of all of us in uniform, it's one of our solemn responsibilities to take care of our soldiers and families and we intend to do that. And we'll provide whatever assistance is needed to them."

"Here in the United States, we are making all due preparations to protect our bases, camps and stations and also to act in support of Health and Human Services. So we've got lots of capabilities, medical capabilities, housing, and so on, so forth that if required and directed by the secretary of defense we'll do our part."

Edited April 25, 2020 by Dan Warnick
Add message from the Chairman of the JCS

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Well I'll be damned.  My computer is running out of ink!  I'll be back online when I figure out how to refill it. 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

4 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Not defending CCP, although I will defend the Chinese. I'm saying that Americans and Brits that seem to want war with China over this need to look at their own governments' miserable response first.

Not only that, but they shouldn't get fooled into supporting their leaders because of warlike rhetoric. It just makes things worse.

Who are the ones sinking other nations boats, in the territorial waters of those nations? Who is currently completely ignoring their signed treaty obligations that 11 NM from shore is sovereign territory of that country not to mention the 200 NM EEZ? A few months back, who rammed and sunk a boat full of Philippine fishermen who then had to be rescued after the "fishing" vessel that rammed them left the poor fellas to die in the SCS?  Oh yeah that's the CCP, so who exactly is seeking war here?

Edited April 25, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing

[surrept33 + 609]

27 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Farmers markets are different than wild game markets. Most of the world, including the US, stopped wild game marketing quite a while ago (sooner in the West but others followed) due to the spread of diseases. Unless your visiting some especially backwater places you won't find wild game markets. Even China finally got the message.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532723-900-china-has-shut-all-of-its-wild-animal-markets-it-was-long-overdue/

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-bans-wildlife-trade-consumption-coronavirus-2020-2

My impression is that "wet market" is literally "fresh market". Not necessarily, "exotic game market". That does exist in China however, to a lesser extent.

China does drive the illegal wildlife/poaching trade all over with disastrous consequences to other countries.

For example, this city in Myanmar on the border with Yunnan province in China :

 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

6 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

My impression is that "wet market" is literally "fresh market". Not necessarily, "exotic game market". That does exist in China however, to a lesser extent.

China does drive the illegal wildlife/poaching trade all over with disastrous consequences to other countries.

For example, this city in Myanmar on the border with Yunnan province in China :

 

Ug, wonder how many black rhino horn's have passed through that place

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

7 hours ago, 0R0 said:

It is more irrelevant to do this Monday morning quarterbacking because by now we have realized this never was a football game. The players advising the Administration were solidly on the other side administering poisonous disinformation and blocking all attempts to stop the virus, test for it, or treat it. Trump thought he had umpires and scientists but found he had corporate lobbyists and internationalist and Chinese agents that just happened to have a medical background and talked over his head. Because of the time constraint he didn't do his usual and threw them out but hooked on to them since it would have taken too long to vet substitutes. Now he should know how much salt to put on each "adviser's" prescription.

I tend to give people too much credit, but in this instance I think you may be giving them too little. Drs. Fauci and Redfield dropped the ball. There is no doubt that between two august institutions like the National Institutes of Health and the Center for Communicable Disease there should have been a team of about five people planning for the unthinkable, making sure that America was prepared. After all, these are the institutions that surfaced now and again to tell us all about the coronavirus threat from China. 

Not only was there no "seer," but also no one in charge of preparations, it seems. I realize that money had to be put aside for warehousing supplies, but a person who really and truly believed a pandemic was coming should have moved heaven and earth to see to a warehouse in every state with preparatory supplies. That was simply . . . . not done. Okay, that's in the past. Go from the strike forward.

When bioterrorism struck us in the gut, we had to fight with the rather ragtag army that we had. Make no mistake: we were sucker-punched by Chairman Xi. While we talked about a dirty bomb he was preparing one. Maybe his people didn't tinker with a bat virus behind an ultraviolet curtain but they certainly had one in there--our people dispatched several people from the American Embassy in Beijing a couple of years ago, and they reportedly found it to be so, and also found an alarming diffidence to the fact. 

So what in the world was Chairman Xi's people in the Wuhan Level 4 Virus Biosafety Laboratory doing with a bat virus from the Hunan Province 1200 miles away? Well, whatever it was, it wasn't good. No it wasn't. Somebody in that lab was preparing something from that virus--either a trick virus that could wander into American nursing homes when the door was open or maybe--though I doubt it--preparing a vaccine. Take the vaccine route, just to be charitable. Was the general plan to administer that vaccine to the world, or rather, was the plan to administer that vaccine to the Chinese people under guise of "this year's special influenza vaccine" and then release the demon virus on the rest of the world?

The court of public opinion is in session as we speak, and it is finding the evidence a bit odd, I would imagine. At a time when Chairman Xi allowed all sorts of people from Wuhan to travel abroad--a diaspora of sorts--his people were busily informing the world that this was not a contagious virus, at least not person to person, just maybe bat to person. Were the people of the world gullible to believe him? Probably. But I sort of believed him myself. I mean, what kind of man would lie to the world about a virus that originated in his country, probably in his state-sponsored lab, and a lie that could kill thousands and cause untold grief and economic ruin?

I read this thread, and others, and feel like I'm in another world--one surreal and backward looking--with Nero's music in the background. We're arguing about Chinese wives, the relative merits of racism worries versus telling it like it is, and about whether our president is goofy for talking about bleach as opposed to being his old contentious self. I'd personally like to see my attack dog in action: Go get 'em, Mr. Trump. Call this an act of bioterrorism, Xi a lier, use the term dirty bomb. A call should go out tomorrow, an invitation to every single company that has people and capital in China: We're not going back in there, we'll help you get a plant started here in America, but you've got to hire Americans and pay them a reasonable wage and provide health insurance and get the hell out of China  . . . . just do it. Take five minutes. No questions. Presidential authority using the Wartime Powers Act.

I agree, the president needs to stop being goofy, talking about bleach and ultraviolet up the butt, things that he doesn't know anything about. My sense is that he's not going dement on us but rather no longer trusts the idiots that first said don't wear a mask and then prompted a whole new violation, a ticket payable to a municipal court for not wearing a mask. He has to appear beside a guy who runs the NIH with thousands of talented people working there but didn't have enough common sense to make a racket about stocking a damn warehouse with PPE. Beside such a man, bleach enemas carried in on rivulets of ultraviolet waves make perfectly good sense. 

My strong advice: Go back to being you, Mr. President. Don't say much about things you don't know about. Go with your gut--it has to be screaming out that we've been hit by a dirty bomb and that the epicenter was the four cornerss of the United States: Seattle, LA, Miami, NYC--a child could point out the hotspots on any map. Call this nasty communist bastard out! Make a stink of it. Get Boris Johnson to tell his sad story. Then get someone from Milan to tell theirs. 

Call a special investigative counsel to interview real virologists--not toadies stuck in there by a liberal press. Don't accept this bullshit about the virus not having a brain and therefore it had to have picked up these grabber and enter domains from nature--that's patently false and a high school science student knows it. We have, for years, tinkered with the DNA of all sorts of plants and plant viruses--that's how we're feeding the world. If you can modify the DNA of a plant or a plant virus, you can certainly modify the RNA of a bat virus. Someone has to grow a pair, before this situation gets totally away from us, and now I'm not talking about a pair of viruses. 

As we speak, it is possible that another virus is being prepared in the Wuhan Level 4 lab. This one may be meaner, or totally different, but it is most probably similar to this one in enough ways to make us all think it is merely a mutant. Does not anyone else in the world think it strange that Ground Zero for this pandemic--Wuhan, a packed city--had the lowest reported death rate of all? They say 50,000 infected, 3,000 dead. What if you multiplied that by a factor of ten? It would still be only 500,000 infected, 30,000 dead--in a country where the virus originated, with a population of 1.4 billion people. Does this sound fishy to anyone else? I'm not worried about the bleach and shining a little ultraviolet ray up someone's bum, I'm worried that we are cowed and complacent, lulled into silence by tragedy. Sorry to go on and on but sometimes, I swear, I feel like I'm living in yesteryear, reading about a dirty bomb, and then when I look up, I'm now living with one, only no one will utter the phrase for fear of pissing off a communist regime and having someone from Newsweek say we're xenophobic.

I'm worried about the president too. But not so much about the bleach. I'm worried that he has become paralyzed by the panic of a nation suddenly gone daft. The president has had to do his work using people he had no faith in, with faulty testing kits made in communist China, listening to doctors who couldn't decide on masks, being told that we'd have a vaccine maybe fall 2021, giving orders to GM to build ventilators because Cuomo hollered at him that he'd need 140,000 only to hear, next minute, that going on a ventilator is nothing but a death kiss. I'm surprise the poor man isn't a crazy as a hoot by now.  

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

5 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Ug, wonder how many black rhino horn's have passed through that place

Probably none. Those go to the expensive shops.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

19 hours ago, 0R0 said:

As you may have noticed, the buck never stops at Trump's desk, just like his business bankruptcies don't. 

Those are the only circumstances Trump had ever been willing to take on. 

That is pretty much where he stands with his core supporters since well before announcing his candidacy. They forgave him his soft porn flick, his extramarital affairs, his suspect financing deals, the constant cloud of suspicion about his Deutsche-bank connections being related to Russian Oligarch money. It was these easy passes he got that led him to run for office. He pointedly stood against "the swamp" and got a barrage of attacks from all over the establishment from every side. his public took that in as a positive sign that they are going in the right direction.

It is an attack from the media and Dems that wins him votes and turnout more than anything he does. The more he outrages them, the better. he just needs to avoid causing outrage fatigue among the mainstream and establishment. But he has learned the means to push their buttons and in this crisis has learned who his "trustworthy" advisers are and who are being either incompetent or acting as agents on China's, corporate, or Democrat's part in order to trip him up. 

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

8 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Sir Spank A Lot..

[Radha + 262]

Anything government funded probably means that the opposite is true.

[Radha + 262]

Great video by two California doctors analyzing recent data and concluding that Covid's fatality rate is lower than the flu.

 

 

[D Coyne + 305]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:37 AM, James Regan said:

CNN SHOWING NO RESPECT FOR THE US PRESIDENT- THIS IS TREASON

While watching my favourite show of the the week The situation Room with Herr Wulf Blitzkreig I was flabbergasted after waiting for what seemed an internity for the CV19 brief they aired the presidents team starting with Berk and her "thats a really good question" intro and then on to Steve Munchen etc and when it came time for "The President" to speak CNN cut it off and went to some democrat talking about massage parlours in Georgia, while POTUS was addressing the nation, this happened two days on the trot, then what was broadcasted was the edited version of his parle with reporters.

Is this legal to cut off a head of state or your president in mid address to the nation, what could be more breaking news? Something is wrong in the USA that this kind of thing happens, god forbid you did this in the UK if the Queen was on the box, you would be thrown in the tower.

Last night Trump was smart he started interrupting the journalists from the sidelines with some fairly heated rhetoric, I think the guy who has to hit the Trump disappear button at CNN realised that it was going to get hairy and left him speaking. CNN is tarting to look like North Korean TV, blatant censorship is this not covered in the 1st amendment - Freedom of speech - surely the president out Trumps massage parlours in Georgia?

You guys have some work to do, forget foreign policy best stay at home for a while and sort it out.

James,

Last I checked, there is not State owned broadcasters in the US.  If you want to see Trump, you can probably get it of Fox or You Tube.  Yes it is free speech, news outlets can choose to broadcast it or not.  For some, the least informative part of the briefings are when Trump speaks.

[D Coyne + 305]

x

Edited April 29, 2020 by D Coyne

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

1 hour ago, D Coyne said:

Wow Gerry you sound like you are off your meds man, get a grip.

HaHa, no Dennis, actually I just needed to ventilate. But I really hadn't finished: I forgot to tell you what I think of you. I'll fix that now; it'll be my swan song.

I watch you come in here and transparently patronize people, scold them gently, and then, if anything gets a little tense you play the race card--you're a pattern guy, so don't try to play poker with the boys. Truth be told, Dennis, you make me want to go take a good puke. You say your little pandering, put-down insults and go hide in your rabbit hole. Have you ever done anything? Really? I mean, something that helped people? That contributed one whit to the society at large? Name it! (Hint: worthless models don't count.)

During my career, I was a virus researcher, then a caregiver and believe it or not, I actually feel pretty comfortable in my skin. I almost never have to put down a bunch of people to feel better about myself. And I never, ever patronize--it would break my spirit all to bits.

Like a lot of people, I'm very upset with what has happened to the country I love. Sometimes I need to talk about it. You can read it or not. But if you're suggesting I'm bipolar or schizophrenic, well, screw you partner, and the horse your rode in on. I have had plenty of associates in medicine with both of those disorders, and they contributed more in an hour than you ever will in your entire, miserable, little modeled-up life. You can only suggest demeaning things on an internet forum, which is the sign of a small man; I'll be willing to bet if you met me in real life and wanted to insult me you'd stutter like a constipated little dandy. I've known people like you my whole life, but I've never seen one of you make a difference in the world of men. Or women. 

[D Coyne + 305]

x

Edited April 29, 2020 by D Coyne

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

Interesting that this thread is still running as of late Sunday (East Coast, USA) April 26.

Tokyo, roughly comparable in size and density to NYC just hit the 100 mark for deaths attributed to COVID 19.

There is no lockdown in Tokyo.

NYC, in contrast, just passed the 12,000 mark in COVID- related fatalities ... a rate 120 times  higher than Tokyo's.

 

Hmmmm ....