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Well worth watching

 

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(edited)

26 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: The media as a whole has grossly misrepresented this disease. We felt if we used the word “deliberately” we may have to present this as an opinion, but it sure appears deliberate.   ...

This is the main driver, it almost reads like a playbook for the Democratic offensive line, holy shite he must be a huge threat after three years of hearings, findings and impeachment and now even biblical proportioned calamities hasn't worked, its only made him stronger, He called Coumo early out on over acting but Joker card was played well by CC, no-one would argue with what might happen, but looks like DT will walk through this again Teflon Don......

Edited by James Regan
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54 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

Well worth watching

 

Agreed.  Well worth watching.  

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9 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

As new data becomes available, we need to now adjust what we are doing as a species.  If there is a "second wave", we should not allow another lockdown, based on the data now available.  I'm still okay with the first lockdown, because we didn't have the data then.

According to worldometers.info from January 1 to April 1, 2020 the worldwide deaths from COVID-19 were 46,438 as opposed to 121,993 for influenza. To recap, during the same three months, with the same social distancing, the same shelter in place, and even handicapped with a vaccine against it, the flu still killed more than two and a half times as many people as COVID-19.

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I believe at this point that Governors, one and all, know that people are going to start ignoring their orders en masse, and they have made a conscious decision to let THAT be the way isolations are lifted: with the Governors on record saying they should not, but allowing people to make the choice.

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To provide some commentary on some of his points that I find misleading:

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

LIE: COVID-19 is more infectious than influenza.

Technically this is true. In practice, though, only 10-12% of people get influenza every year because so many have immunity or are immunized each year. If COVID-19 were to run amok, it's expected that around 50% of people would come down with it.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

LIE: COVID-19 is more dangerous than influenza.

This is definitely untrue. Death rates are much higher than with the flu. Total deaths in the UK for the week ending 10 April were 18,516 compared to 10,520 for the same week in a typical year.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

LIE: The fact one doesn’t know he or she has COVID-19 makes it more dangerous.

I think the comparison here is to a disease like SARS or Ebola. Both the flu and COVID-19 are infectious prior to symptoms, allowing them to spread more easily.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: The current policies instituted by our local, state, and national governments are causing greater health problems than the virus ever will.

Opinion, unless research is stated showing this to be the case.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: The media as a whole has grossly misrepresented this disease.

Opinion as well. Where we can point out weeks of Trump spouting nonsense on COVID-19, the media has taken numerous sides on this - generally they have relied on scientists more than politicians and pundits, which is the right thing to do in a case like this.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: The media will continue to fight reopening of this country by stating “experts” predict a spike in deaths if we do so. We would assume those are the same experts who initially predicted 2.2 million US deaths, revised to 200,000, then 100,000, then 60,000, then ordered testing all US deaths just in case they had coronavirus because we weren’t on pace for even 30,000 prior to that change in policy.

The media will continue to quote scientists and report what is actually happening. Initial models for the 2.2 million were for if the government did nothing. Changes in models outputs happen when you change the inputs due to interventions, such as this current lockdown.
One big caveat to this: Imperial College changed a major input when they assumed an infection rate similar to the flu. When they fixed that input it made everything much scarier.
That being said, if the US has similar infection and mortality rates as New York, we can expect:

  • NY State population * Infection rate * mortality rate = Total Dead
  • 19.5 million * 12% * mortality rate = 22,250 (12% is the suspected infection rate in NY, giving us a mortality rate of 0.95%)
  • US population * expected infection rate * mortality rate = expected dead
  • 330 million * 50% * 0.95% = 1.57 million dead across the US

1.57 million people dead using more accurate and current figures is not too far off the initial models of 2.2 million.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: Not every country has shut down their economy, and none of those countries have suffered higher rates of death because they have kept their economy going. One of the searches done prior to putting this together related to countries who kept their businesses open. One of the lowest mortality rates in the entire world is Japan, who fits that description.

The countries that didn't shut down their economies were the ones that had test, trace, isolate in place and used additional reduction measures such as face masks - all things that we should have been doing from the beginning and which I don't see us having put in place yet.

Opening without having alternative measures in place is dangerous.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: This is not a medical crisis, but a political crisis.

COVID has become a medical crisis in every country where it has hit, including South Korea and Japan. Any crisis that impacts the entire nation is bound to become a political crisis.

In the UK it wasn't the "liberal media" didn't call the government to account, it was the Tories and the right-wing press that rejected their own government's herd-immunity direction.

In the US, the fact that Trump politicized this from the start rather than putting a plan in place has accelerated the political blowback.

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

TRUTH: If you love your children, enjoy sports, or know anyone who owns or is employed by a small business you should be angry. Very angry. We can absolutely take steps to protect the elderly and vulnerable, but everything should reopen immediately.

Opinion. I believe it to be true as well, but not for the reasons he states. You should be angry at the completely inept management of a manageable crisis that has caused the businesses to close and the complete lack of plans of how to reopen safely.

 

I do expect the disease to peter out over the summer and come back in the autumn. By autumn I hope we have better social distancing and test/trace/isolate in place along with better medical treatments. The messaging so far has been haphazard at best which reduces my confidence that it will happen. Maybe I'll get surprised - I certainly hope so.

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Anybody else notice how the news over the weekend reported over 20,000 people in California taking to the beaches?  Did you check to see what their Democrat Governor had to say about it?  He said people should not do that, but that he would not stop them or arrest them (like they could arrest 20,000 people).  And, MOST IMPORTANTLY, did anyone notice that the MSM did not scream bloody murder when it happened in California; unlike when the people protested in Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and other states.

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More professionals need to come forward in numbers. The US media will not back down they are far to invested in a campaign of hysteria.  

 

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15 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

To provide some commentary on some of his points that I find misleading:

< snip numerous rebuttals >

Please see the 2 videos posted earlier im this thread by El Nikko.  Far more details in the explanations by the doctors in the videos.

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42 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Please see the 2 videos posted earlier im this thread by El Nikko.  Far more details in the explanations by the doctors in the videos.

I didn't rebut them, I rebutted several erros made in the article. Throwing an hour-long video out and saying "this explains everything" does nothing to correct the errors I pointed out. Especially as they sit there pontificating and not providing sources.

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Since this thing started, I thought that we need to look at the total death count, since the reported COVID-19 death rate is one uncertainty divided by another uncertainty. In regard to total all-cause mortalities in multiple countries versus seasonal norms, an on-point NYT article and excerpt:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

These numbers undermine the notion that many people who have died from the virus may soon have died anyway. In Paris, more than twice the usual number of people have died each day, far more than the peak of a bad flu season. In New York City, the number is now four times the normal amount.

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1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

To provide some commentary on some of his points that I find misleading:

Technically this is true. In practice, though, only 10-12% of people get influenza every year because so many have immunity or are immunized each year. If COVID-19 were to run amok, it's expected that around 50% of people would come down with it.

This is definitely untrue. Death rates are much higher than with the flu. Total deaths in the UK for the week ending 10 April were 18,516 compared to 10,520 for the same week in a typical year.

I think the comparison here is to a disease like SARS or Ebola. Both the flu and COVID-19 are infectious prior to symptoms, allowing them to spread more easily.

Opinion, unless research is stated showing this to be the case.

Opinion as well. Where we can point out weeks of Trump spouting nonsense on COVID-19, the media has taken numerous sides on this - generally they have relied on scientists more than politicians and pundits, which is the right thing to do in a case like this.

The media will continue to quote scientists and report what is actually happening. Initial models for the 2.2 million were for if the government did nothing. Changes in models outputs happen when you change the inputs due to interventions, such as this current lockdown.
One big caveat to this: Imperial College changed a major input when they assumed an infection rate similar to the flu. When they fixed that input it made everything much scarier.
That being said, if the US has similar infection and mortality rates as New York, we can expect:

  • NY State population * Infection rate * mortality rate = Total Dead
  • 19.5 million * 12% * mortality rate = 22,250 (12% is the suspected infection rate in NY, giving us a mortality rate of 0.95%)
  • US population * expected infection rate * mortality rate = expected dead
  • 330 million * 50% * 0.95% = 1.57 million dead across the US

1.57 million people dead using more accurate and current figures is not too far off the initial models of 2.2 million.

The countries that didn't shut down their economies were the ones that had test, trace, isolate in place and used additional reduction measures such as face masks - all things that we should have been doing from the beginning and which I don't see us having put in place yet.

Opening without having alternative measures in place is dangerous.

COVID has become a medical crisis in every country where it has hit, including South Korea and Japan. Any crisis that impacts the entire nation is bound to become a political crisis.

In the UK it wasn't the "liberal media" didn't call the government to account, it was the Tories and the right-wing press that rejected their own government's herd-immunity direction.

In the US, the fact that Trump politicized this from the start rather than putting a plan in place has accelerated the political blowback.

Opinion. I believe it to be true as well, but not for the reasons he states. You should be angry at the completely inept management of a manageable crisis that has caused the businesses to close and the complete lack of plans of how to reopen safely.

 

I do expect the disease to peter out over the summer and come back in the autumn. By autumn I hope we have better social distancing and test/trace/isolate in place along with better medical treatments. The messaging so far has been haphazard at best which reduces my confidence that it will happen. Maybe I'll get surprised - I certainly hope so.

 

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21 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I didn't rebut them, I rebutted several erros made in the article. Throwing an hour-long video out and saying "this explains everything" does nothing to correct the errors I pointed out. Especially as they sit there pontificating and not providing sources.

Then you didn't watch it all the way through.  In fact, they referenced the data they used, and they separately referenced their own data when applicable.  Over and over again.

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9 minutes ago, Jeffrey Brown said:

From the NYT article linked above:

 

Screen Shot 2020-04-27 at 11.47.44 AM.png

Financial Times concurs with this, believing that delayed reporting means that COVID-19 deaths are being under-reported by about 40% in the 13 countries they looked at.  It will be even more difficult to figure this out in the US as each state has different ways to record excess deaths.

https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c

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4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Then you didn't watch it all the way through.  In fact, they referenced the data they used, and they separately referenced their own data when applicable.  Over and over again.

I showed the first guy was full of it, not understanding the difference between opinion and fact and posting misleading and incorrect information.

None of you have rebutted anything that I've said, all you want me to do is waste another hour listening to more people probably talking BS and rebut that.

Either show where I'm wrong or admit that I'm right. Don't just throw more crap at me and expect me to rebut it.

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8 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Financial Times concurs with this, believing that delayed reporting means that COVID-19 deaths are being under-reported by about 40% in the 13 countries they looked at.  It will be even more difficult to figure this out in the US as each state has different ways to record excess deaths.

https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c

Note that there is an offsetting factor reducing total all-cause fatalities, to-wit, presumably a reduction traffic fatalities, due to the collapse in hours driven per day.  So, the increases in various countries above seasonal norms is after an offsetting factor reducing total fatalities.  In any case, note the WP article on total US fatalities. 

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19 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I showed the first guy was full of it, not understanding the difference between opinion and fact and posting misleading and incorrect information.

None of you have rebutted anything that I've said, all you want me to do is waste another hour listening to more people probably talking BS and rebut that.

Either show where I'm wrong or admit that I'm right. Don't just throw more crap at me and expect me to rebut it.

Nope.  By telling you he did in fact reference his data, and his and his colleague's own data, and since they are medical doctors in the relevant field,  it means I'm going with their conclusions as opposed to yours.  That's all.

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2 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Nope.  By telling you he did in fact reference his data, and his and his colleague's own data, and since they are medical doctors in the relevant field,  it means I'm going with their conclusions as opposed to yours.  That's all.

Fine. I take it then that my argument is so sound that you can't find a flaw and that you are only believing what it's comforting to believe rather than thinking for yourself.

That's fine. On your way, then.

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15 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I showed the first guy was full of it, not understanding the difference between opinion and fact and posting misleading and incorrect information.

None of you have rebutted anything that I've said, all you want me to do is waste another hour listening to more people probably talking BS and rebut that.

Either show where I'm wrong or admit that I'm right. Don't just throw more crap at me and expect me to rebut it.

I didn't throw that at you I posted the link for anyone who wanted to hear what two doctors with a relevant background thought.

The US has performed massive testing and therefore it's now possible to extrapolate the results for the full populations of each state. They believe that the results indicate that quite large percentages of the populations have already had CV-19 and therefore the mortality rate is similar to flu.

Some people might not like that, yes we can pick holes in extrapolating numbers but it's the best data that exists and is now more scientific than predictive models which was all we had 2 months ago. To get exact numbers and percentages we would need to test every single person which is impossible so as long as you have a big enough sample group extrapolating is the the best way to get an estiamtion of how many people have contracted CV-19.

They also pointed out that the damage being done to the medical profession in the US (which is currently furloughing and laying off staff) is going to have a huge knock on effect to health in general. In the UK this is now becoming very apparent, on average something like 30,000 new cancers get picked up each month and in the month of April than number has falled to around 5000 so there are potentially 25,000 people out there who have not been diagnosed and are not going to get treatment for sometime and as we all know early detection is vital for survival rates.

Just to add it's clear the peak was over on the 8th of April in the UK, we didn't overwhelm the NHS which was the whole point of the 'slow the spread' and 'lockdown'. The hospitals are empty, treatments are delayed, people are scared to go for urgent medical conditions and it looks like the 'second wave' could be of other ilnesses not treated and maybe that will kill just as many people as the virus ever did.

 

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8 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Nope.  By telling you he did in fact reference his data, and his and his colleague's own data, and since they are medical doctors in the relevant field,  it means I'm going with their conclusions as opposed to yours.  That's all.

You don't go to the New York Times for your medical advice?

Shame on you 😂

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