Geothermal Drilling?

[BradleyPNW + 282]

Yes, that makes it effective for water based liquid desiccants like salt water. In general, it's a good idea to keep home humidity low to improve indoor air quality. But it's more of a science experiment than a solution when you do it for a home residence rather than a large building. 
 

 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

12 hours ago, nsdp said:

I have three patents in this area  that i will sell you my 1/2 interest plus a sucker for $1000 each.  https://patents.justia.com/patent/8281590 and https://patents.justia.com/patent/8256219 and one more and I will get the best end of the deal.

I'll be making my own patents in a couple years, thank you very much.

12 hours ago, nsdp said:

Break even is $60/mwh with an 85% load factor.  The later is a pipe dream due to H2S issues with geothermal wells.   Geothermal needs about twice the operating subsidy that nuclear needs.

I agree. Notice that I'm not declaring these to be currently competitive. In the long run they'll outperform wind and solar because of power density and greater returns per dollar invested. The hydrogen sulfide is an interesting problem. I see opportunity though. The gas could be burned and the sulfur dioxide captured to be converted into sulfuric acid (big market). Start improving this system instead of the others, and you'll be a rich man. I'd like to pioneer a geothermal ammonia plant in 20 years maybe. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[BradleyPNW + 282]

12 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Sun based air conditioner/dehumidifier: Only thing I am bummed about is that This guy did it before me.  Had the idea floating around for decades, but no need for it in mild Western Washington.  I see no reason everyone in the world could not lower their AC load at least when sun is shining, or if you have a big hot water tank.... Should improve COP by 2X at minimum.  Why big commercial guys are not doing this I honestly do not know.... the "not invented here syndrome I guess"

I missed your post. 

In Western Washington you'd want dehumidification in summer. But you can do something the rest of the USA can't, hydronic heating and cooling in ceilings. The dew points in summer are high enough to prevent condensation in a chilled hydronic ceiling. 

In western WA you'd dunk on disiccant cooling systems because your primary need is heating. The A/C portion would just be a bonus supplied by the heat pump. Heat pumps can also take care of your dehumidification but you'd need to move internal air through it. But dehumidification might wind up being essentially free too IF you installed an indoor air quality system to ventilate your home. 

Primary goal is comfortable heat without needing to add a lot of insulation. Secondary goal is indoor air quality. Summer cooling and dehumidification would tag along for free. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

To be clear, gas furnace is less expensive heat but not comfortable heat. Radiant heat from a large ceiling radiator is comfortable. It doesn't run as hot as hydronic floor heating. It doesn't blast on and off like a furnace. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

I missed your post. 

In Western Washington you'd want dehumidification in summer. But you can do something the rest of the USA can't, hydronic heating and cooling in ceilings. The dew points in summer are high enough to prevent condensation in a chilled hydronic ceiling.

I don't think you have ever been here in summer.  We may have 1 day a year one might label, "humid" by western washington standards.  By the worlds standard.... What humidity?  😁     W. Washington/Vancouver/Portlands ~Western PNW "summer" is ~2 months long and it might hit 35C once or twice if you are unlucky and 30C for maybe one week total.  Then everyone bitches about how "hot" it is 😁😁😁... for ~2 days. 

And NO ONE can do cooling from ceilings.... unless you are filthy rich as installing such a system... oi, the $$$ yikes.  Now, If I lived in Louisiana?  Yea, I would be buying warmboard and installing it in my ceiling and floor.  Everyone has to worry about dew point in summer on cool surfaces.  Why the Insulation down SOUTH/Midwest/East USA where giant AC loads are always on and the humidity is 90% most days, needs to be on the OUTSIDE of the stud cavities in wood constructed homes.  Fortunately newer homes are starting to do this, but all older homes?  Massive massive problems creating massive mold/rot and destroyed wooden homes.  If the Insulation methods change, then we will stop having to replace wooden homes every 4 decades...

EDIT: Yes, sorry, did not address last part of your post.  Yes, heating is #1 goal and in this solar thermal works great if you are willing to do the work yourself.  If you have to pay for it to be done with commercial systems, then well, you are probably spending more money than it is worth, unless perfectly situation with perfect southern exposure and NO TREES.. Good luck, you better own your 5 acres as trees around here grow 150ft easily and block the sun from a massive distance away... generally from your neighbors yard.  Give it another 100 years and people will be whining about 200ft tall trees from their neighbors yard or the green belts which have grown in popularity.... until they utterly block out the sun, what little sun we do get.

Edited May 17, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

To be clear, gas furnace is less expensive heat but not comfortable heat. Radiant heat from a large ceiling radiator is comfortable. It doesn't run as hot as hydronic floor heating. It doesn't blast on and off like a furnace. 

HELL NO!  NEVER radiant heat from ceiling.  That is HELL on earth.  Been in such a building. 

Your head is literally on FIRE!🔥 and your feet are FREEZING 🥶  which means everyone CRANKS the heat high creating MASSIVE heating bills. 

Heat from radiative floor --> 200% 

Walk bare footed all year round, thanks. 

[nsdp + 449]

5 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

I'll be making my own patents in a couple years, thank you very much.

I agree. Notice that I'm not declaring these to be currently competitive. In the long run they'll outperform wind and solar because of power density and greater returns per dollar invested. The hydrogen sufide is an interesting problem. I see opportunity though. The gas could be burned and the sulfur dioxide captured to be converted into sulfuric acid (big market). Start improving this system instead of the others, and you'll be a rich man. I'd like to pioneer a geothermal ammonia plant in 20 years maybe. 

I don't know what you are smoking(Panama Red?) but I have glaucoma and could use a semi load. Send me the name of  and contact info for your dealer.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

Deleted. 

Useless. Perhaps I didn't understand the first message. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

I prefer a direct challenge to what I'm saying, and proper understanding of sarcasm (the first comment). 

A trend with your type is that you're opposed to any solution that actually works:

Geothermal: BAD

Wind and highv enough thaSolar: GOOD 

 

NO let's just say Adam Smith's invisible hand and Maxwell's equations  apply to the electricity markets in spades.  Construction costs of 4  660mw coal fired power plants raised HL&P's rate base to more than offset the savings of coal over natural gas for 44% of annual kwh sales. Industrial customers used  this as (10 biggest industrial customers) the reason could justify building cogeneration plants and cutting off  purchases from HL&P. HL&P went into the utility death spiral and bankrupt.

Capital costs will determine future generation sources. The biggest part of onshore wind's decline in break even to $18/mwh has come from improved turbine design where the ability to capture available power has improved from 37% to 51% onshore and to 56% offshore.  Solar competes with SCGT's and fuel costs for the turbines plus low load factor pushes SCGT annual operating costs  to about $45-50/mwh.  Solar is competitive at $30 today and, in day time markets, is below the grid's Locational Marginal Price(LMP) during those daylight hours. $60/mwh for geothermal is simply not cost competitive more than 200 hours a year.  It was 10 years ago when marginal fuel price was coal costing $67/mwh.   LMP based on a competetive source is what kills CCGT's . At night and shoulder months the 5 minute interval marginal  price (typically $15/mwh or less)is less than fuel costs for the CCGT. At 1820 hours today that price is $21.39. click the link to see what the delivered  price is across most of Texas.  http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/contours/rtmLmp.html

Since ramp rates  for CCGT's are measured in hours instead of minutes, the CCGT can stay on line when prices are low and pay a penalty for over generation  or vent steam.  Coal and geothermal plants  ramp rates  are measured in days not minutes.   Slow ramp rates of  coal generation  are why the 2003 NE Blackout went from a local outage to a regional crash.  The dropping of load by transmission was manageable until too much load dropped and the grid switched from insufficient generation to over generation.  Then all plants started tripping off to protect against damage to equipment.   Biggest advantage solar and wind have is that they can be turned off or on in about 1/10th of a second.  Gas turbines need 20-30 minutes to synchronize with the grid and ramp up to load.   If you vent then  they take couple of minutes to down ramp. Coal, nuclear and geothermal take days to dispatch.   I have actually worked as a dispatcher for 21/2 years and have my IBEW journeymans' dispatchers card,  So I know  almost  all posts discussed here will not work when the job is making sure your lights turn on when you flip the switch and the system doesn't crash when you turn them off.

Show me any one else who knows what steps matter  and in what order when you connect or disconnect generation,  how long those take,  can do Maxwell's equations, know what parallel path is and know when to run. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by nsdp
typo clarification

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

2 hours ago, nsdp said:

NO let's just say Adam Smith's invisible hand and Maxwell's equations  apply to the electricity markets in spades.  Construction costs of 4  660mw coal fired power plants raised HL&P's rate base to more than offset the savings of coal over natural gas for 44% of annual kwh sales. Industrial customers used  this as (10 biggest industrial customers) the reason could justify building cogeneration plants and cutting off  purchases from HL&P. HL&P went into the utility death spiral and bankrupt.

Capital costs will determine future generation sources. The biggest part of onshore wind's decline in break even to $18/mwh has come from improved turbine design where the ability to capture available power has improved from 37% to 51% onshore and to 56% offshore.  Solar competes with SCGT's and fuel costs for the turbines plus low load factor pushes SCGT annual operating costs  to about $45-50/mwh.  Solar is competitive at $30 today and, in day time markets, is below the grid's Locational Marginal Price(LMP) during those daylight hours. $60/mwh for geothermal is simply not cost competitive more than 200 hours a year.  It was 10 years ago when marginal fuel price was coal costing $67/mwh.   LMP based on a competetive source is what kills CCGT's . At night and shoulder months the 5 minute interval marginal  price (typically $15/mwh or less)is less than fuel costs for the CCGT. At 1820 hours today that price is $21.39. click the link to see what the delivered  price is across most of Texas.  http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/contours/rtmLmp.html

Since ramp rates  for CCGT's are measured in hours instead of minutes, the CCGT can stay on line when prices are low and pay a penalty for over generation  or vent steam.  Coal and geothermal plants  ramp rates  are measured in days not minutes.   Slow ramp rates of  coal generation  are why the 2003 NE Blackout went from a local outage to a regional crash.  The dropping of load by transmission was manageable until too much load dropped and the grid switched from insufficient generation to over generation.  Then all plants started tripping off to protect against damage to equipment.   Biggest advantage solar and wind have is that they can be turned off or on in about 1/10th of a second.  Gas turbines need 20-30 minutes to synchronize with the grid and ramp up to load.   If you vent then  they take couple of minutes to down ramp. Coal, nuclear and geothermal take days to dispatch.   I have actually worked as a dispatcher for 21/2 years and have my IBEW journeymans' dispatchers card,  So I know  almost  all posts discussed here will not work when the job is making sure your lights turn on when you flip the switch and the system doesn't crash when you turn them off.

Show me any one else who knows what steps matter  and in what order when you connect or disconnect generation,  how long those take,  can do Maxwell's equations, know what parallel path is and know when to run. 

This is an excellent reply. I appreciate information like this. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

7 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

To be clear, gas furnace is less expensive heat but not comfortable heat. Radiant heat from a large ceiling radiator is comfortable. It doesn't run as hot as hydronic floor heating. It doesn't blast on and off like a furnace. 

I couldn't disagree more. Gas heating feels the most comfortable to me. Strictly opinion I suppose. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

@nsdp

Okay. You tend to say plenty of things. I'm sure they're mostly true, but I can't sift through a text wall and come to effective conclusions, so let's get specific. 

Give me the average CAPEX for a geothermal plant per installed kilowatt. I'd also like to know what they've got for operating costs. How long do they last? 

All of that stuff about ramp speed doesn't really concern me yet. I want to get past base level feasibility. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by KeyboardWarrior

[BradleyPNW + 282]

21 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

HELL NO!  NEVER radiant heat from ceiling.  That is HELL on earth.  Been in such a building. 

Your head is literally on FIRE!🔥 and your feet are FREEZING 🥶  which means everyone CRANKS the heat high creating MASSIVE heating bills. 

Heat from radiative floor --> 200% 

Walk bare footed all year round, thanks. 

Ok. Don't do it then. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

16 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

I couldn't disagree more. Gas heating feels the most comfortable to me. Strictly opinion I suppose. 

Gas furnace is on-off. Home comfort is improved, partly, through improving mean radiant temperature of your environmental surfaces. With an on-off source like gas you get hot and cold spots on your surfaces. In general, you also get too much air flow or too little airflow. In addition, humidity impacts comfort but you can't solve for that with gas. 

A decade ago people tried to solve for MRT with heavy insulation but you still had the -- much less important but still counts -- air flow problems. 

The only way you can check off all the home comfort boxes is with electricity. Actually, I guess you could do it with gas control but that's a lot more expensive and might not exist in the market. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

27 minutes ago, BradleyPNW said:

Gas furnace is on-off. Home comfort is improved, partly, through improving mean radiant temperature of your environmental surfaces. With an on-off source like gas you get hot and cold spots on your surfaces. In general, you also get too much air flow or too little airflow. In addition, humidity impacts comfort but you can't solve for that with gas. 

A decade ago people tried to solve for MRT with heavy insulation but you still had the -- much less important but still counts -- air flow problems. 

The only way you can check off all the home comfort boxes is with electricity. Actually, I guess you could do it with gas control but that's a lot more expensive and might not exist in the market. 

I had a hydronic baseboard system and I loved it. Gas-fired boiler, six separately-controlled heating zones. When the original boiler finally died I replaced it with a gas condensing pulse furnace, which is extremely efficient. I ran additional zones for the swimming pool heater and the hot water-heated hot water heater since the pulse furnace was more efficient than separate gas-fired heaters.  Moving heat around using hot water gives you the most flexibility and control. For a new-build, I would use radiant flooring and a ground-source heat pump to heat the water.

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

Gas furnace is on-off. Home comfort is improved, partly, through improving mean radiant temperature of your environmental surfaces. With an on-off source like gas you get hot and cold spots on your surfaces. In general, you also get too much air flow or too little airflow. In addition, humidity impacts comfort but you can't solve for that with gas. 

A decade ago people tried to solve for MRT with heavy insulation but you still had the -- much less important but still counts -- air flow problems. 

The only way you can check off all the home comfort boxes is with electricity. Actually, I guess you could do it with gas control but that's a lot more expensive and might not exist in the market. 

The new boiler I am just about to put in is modulating. Its a wet system - not warm air. Its maximum output is 15KW but as the circulating water nears its operating temperature (also adjustable) the boiler throttles back to about 3.5KW and then ticks over unless the room stat temperature is met. The last two boilers I installed were exactly the same with this modulating function. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

If you don't get condensation from cooling -- and you want cooling -- a radiant ceiling allows you to run at lower temp than radiator, baseboard, or flooring for heating and a higher temp for cooling. If you want higher temp hydronic cooling you can't use a radiator or floor. 

Plus, it's an excuse to make a cool looking ceiling. 

[nsdp + 449]

On 5/17/2020 at 10:29 PM, KeyboardWarrior said:

@nsdp

Okay. You tend to say plenty of things. I'm sure they're mostly true, but I can't sift through a text wall and come to effective conclusions, so let's get specific. 

Give me the average CAPEX for a geothermal plant per installed kilowatt. I'd also like to know what they've got for operating costs. How long do they last? 

All of that stuff about ramp speed doesn't really concern me yet. I want to get past base level feasibility. 

Check  with Doug for drilling costs  for a 3500 meter well.  You need at least 120C . SMU has best geotehrmal costs https://www.smu.edu/Dedman/Academics/Departments/Earth-Sciences/Research/GeothermalLab 

My costs are 12 years out of date. Drilling techniques have changed a lot since then.

Edited May 19, 2020 by nsdp