Coronavirus hype biggest political hoax in history

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 minute ago, Jee said:

Denmark death rate=533/10711=5% VS 12% of Sweden and you call it what? Norway = 224/8122-2.8%, Finland 271/5984=4.5% and it's not material difference?

Herd immunity is only applicable if you can only get this virus once then develop immunity against it, that's not the case here, at least no scientific proof. This is not something like measles.

Given what the bureaucracy is like (which I'm not arguing with), do you want a revolution to take most of them out, or do you want someone who can work with them and stern things towards the right direction?

I want to dismantle the powers of the bureaucracy.

Yes, if you take the Swedish numbers that way, but they have prevalence numbers as well. In comparing those, the rates are no different. Sweden did less aggressive testing because they stuck to the original NW European consensus policy of herd immunity and focused on slowing down the spread rather than stopping it, which is what the idiots did when the panic struck.. 

If you want it to be treated as a virus, there is a nice little reference here on a thread "1968 pandemic" which shows a rational response in the US. If it has the properties of a virus then it would also induce immunity with sufficient exposure. If you wait for proof, then you will be dead of starvation before you leave the house. The no proof argument is bogus. This is not the first virus pandemic. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

5 minutes ago, Jee said:

Perhaps you can, but if we didn't have the lockdown measures many won't.

The evidence is it's from the CCP, who is known for manipulating data.

How do we develop herd immunity if people will just contract it again and again? 

I'm looking for an example where you claim others did it poorly and you show them you can do better.

Again, you are making a specious argument. Lockdown is to a pandemic like decapitation is to headaches. 

The evidence of comorbidity data and age breakedown was leaked directly by doctors. The aggregate numbers were a known fabrication. 

The evidence has always been that reinfection rates are low, and were indistinguishable from flare up of existing infections. 

Examples of what?

[Jee + 27]

9 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

I want to dismantle the powers of the bureaucracy.

Yes, if you take the Swedish numbers that way, but they have prevalence numbers as well. In comparing those, the rates are no different. Sweden did less aggressive testing because they stuck to the original NW European consensus policy of herd immunity and focused on slowing down the spread rather than stopping it, which is what the idiots did when the panic struck.. 

If you want it to be treated as a virus, there is a nice little reference here on a thread "1968 pandemic" which shows a rational response in the US. If it has the properties of a virus then it would also induce immunity with sufficient exposure. If you wait for proof, then you will be dead of starvation before you leave the house. The no proof argument is bogus. This is not the first virus pandemic. 

Herd immunity will not work if this virus has the properties of a flu, like seasonal mutation, which we don't know for sure.

You hit the point with Sweden doing less testing, which means their actual case/million can only be higher.

Go ahead with your "plan" if there is one, you have guns and think-alikes to carry it out? Most people would want someone capable of working with and leading the bureaucracies to do the right thing, it's why we have a role called "the president".

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, Jee said:

Herd immunity will not work if this virus has the properties of a flu, like seasonal mutation, which we don't know for sure.

You hit the point with Sweden doing less testing, which means their actual case/million can only be higher.

Go ahead with your "plan" if there is one, you have guns and think-alikes to carry it out? Most people would want someone capable of working with and lead the bureaucracies to do the right thing, it's why we have a role called "the president".

Herd immunity is why only 45% of us get the cold. It has dozens of strains every season. Same with the flu. Each exposure reduces the impact of the next similar strain. So far, this virus has 200 known mutations as of end of Apr. and none are immunologically substantial. 

The case per million being higher means that their mortality is proportionately lower. So you see the clear lack of difference in consequences. 

The bureaucracies are Democrat dominated, and controlled mostly via the congressional committees at the Senate and the House. The President has only some authority in new appointments. We need to repeal the 1963 civil service act that effectively removes ethics lying to the public and malfeasance as causes for firing. 

 

[Jee + 27]

8 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Again, you are making a specious argument. Lockdown is to a pandemic like decapitation is to headaches. 

The evidence of comorbidity data and age breakedown was leaked directly by doctors. The aggregate numbers were a known fabrication. 

The evidence has always been that reinfection rates are low, and were indistinguishable from flare up of existing infections. 

Examples of what?

What measures would you propose in your opinion that would work better than a lockdown? 

In short your action affects others so that's why we had to curb it, it's true young people are at lower risks but should we discriminate the population and only apply lock downs or quarantines to senior people, or to black minority people? What kind of backlash and "conspiracy theories" would that create? 

You were saying NY should not have sent senior covid patients to care homes, so where should they send them, to you perhaps?

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[Jee + 27]

1 minute ago, 0R0 said:

Herd immunity is why only 45% of us get the cold. It has dozens of strains every season. Same with the flu. Each exposure reduces the impact of the next similar strain. So far, this virus has 200 known mutations as of end of Apr. and none are immunologically substantial. 

The case per million being higher means that their mortality is proportionately lower. So you see the clear lack of difference in consequences. 

The bureaucracies are Democrat dominated, and controlled mostly via the congressional committees at the Senate and the House. The President has only some authority in new appointments. We need to repeal the 1963 civil service act that effectively removes ethics lying to the public and malfeasance as causes for firing. 

 

1. Wow where do you get the 45% number, are you in the 45% or 55%? And how do you tell the rest of us who are in the 45% VS 55%?

2. If case/million is artificially lower, it means the count of deaths due to covid19 is also artificially lower, because some people died of covid19 didn't get tested, get it?

3. If you can only work with your own party, you should be a party head at best not a president.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 minute ago, Jee said:

What measures would you propose in your opinion that would work better than a lockdown? 

In short your action affects others so that's why we had to curb it, it's true young people are at lower risks but should we discriminate the population and apply lock downs or quarantines to senior people, or to black minority people? What kind of backlash and "conspiracy theories" would that create? 

You were saying NY should not have sent senior covid patients to care homes, so where should they send them, to you perhaps?

 

Your actions affect others only to the extent that they allow it. Going out when they don't need to, not wearing PPE, not using sanitation, kissing the doorknob you just touched. Health is not a public property.

Again, "we" don't do. Government is not "we". government should be denuded of authorities and be limited to suggestions and guidelines.  You keep reflexing to mandatory policy. That is the firs mistake. Let the doctors advise their patients that they are or are not in danger rather than scaring them from acting proactively. 

You keep inventing policy prescriptions for what is voluntary acts of self preservation. Stop using your government-ese translator.. Policy is simple a bad idea. 

NYC had tens of thousands of empty hotel rooms and nurses and doctors twiddling their thumbs. Put the two together and you have as much capacity as they could possibly need for the problem. They also had the Javitz center setup exactly for this possibility. 

 

 

[Jee + 27]

10 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Your actions affect others only to the extent that they allow it. Going out when they don't need to, not wearing PPE, not using sanitation, kissing the doorknob you just touched. Health is not a public property.

Again, "we" don't do. Government is not "we". government should be denuded of authorities and be limited to suggestions and guidelines.  You keep reflexing to mandatory policy. That is the firs mistake. Let the doctors advise their patients that they are or are not in danger rather than scaring them from acting proactively. 

You keep inventing policy prescriptions for what is voluntary acts of self preservation. Stop using your government-ese translator.. Policy is simple a bad idea. 

NYC had tens of thousands of empty hotel rooms and nurses and doctors twiddling their thumbs. Put the two together and you have as much capacity as they could possibly need for the problem. They also had the Javitz center setup exactly for this possibility. 

 

 

And others would only allow you to be close to them if you prove you are free of the virus, hence various measures are applied at the reopening of many places. Unfortunately we didn't have the testing capacity we have now weeks ago, which was why public places were shut down, it's the will of the majorities.

The debate of role of the government is another topic, my 2 cents is given how it functions today, we should only have a president capable of working with this 200 year+ old system, if you want to rebuild it, that's an option 2 but I double you can carry it out successfully in this life time.

Most NY hotels don't have a kitchen to cater for seniors nor do they have the medical facilities seniors need and find in a long term care home, so sending them to care homes work better than hotels. Javis is a temporary facility and many or the senior will have side effects from the virus for many years to come.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[0R0 + 6,251]

15 minutes ago, Jee said:

1. Wow where do you get the 45% number, are you in the 45% or 55%? And how do you tell the rest of us who are in the 45% VS 55%?

2. If case/million is artificially lower, it means the count of deaths due to covid19 is also artificially lower, because some people died of covid19 didn't get tested, get it?

3. If you can only work with your own party, you should be a party head at best not a president.

If you are in the flu vaccinted group you have a near 100% chance of getting coronvirus infections. The 45% is from a Navy research paper evaluating flu vaccine's overall health outcomes. It was posted on one of the CV19 threads here at some point. You can go look for it. Flu reaches 20-40% of the people, in part because of lower R0 than the common cold and in part because of cross strain immunity as you can have antibodies to unmodified proteins on the new strain. 

There is nobody to work with if the bureaucrats in place are constantly abusing their position to undermine you and the economy and people's well being in any way they could in order to smear you with it. 

Case per million is not artificially lower. They just retained the same testing criteria, vs. those in other countries where they widened testing so there are varying baselines.. That is a consequence of their aim for herd immunity that the Swedish PM declared is nearly there. 

I suggest that you are being a Dem hack or useful idiot. The mainstream argumentation is familiar here and is dishonest. You need to think outside the echochamber.

Edited May 11, 2020 by 0R0

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

5 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

If you are in the flu vaccinted group you have a near 100% chance of getting coronvirus infections. The 45% is from a Navy research paper evaluating flu vaccine's overall health outcomes. It was posted on one of the CV19 threads here at some point. You can go look for it. Flu reaches 20-40% of the people, in part because of lower R0 than the common cold and in part because of cross strain immunity as you can have antibodies to unmodified proteins on the new strain. 

There is nobody to work with if the bureaucrats in place are constantly abusing their position to undermine you and the economy and people's well being in any way they could in order to smear you with it. 

Case per million is not artificially lower. They just retained the same testing criteria, vs. those in other countries where they widened testing so there are varying baselines.. That is a consequence of their aim for herd immunity that the Swedish PM declared is nearly there. 

I suggest that you are being a Dem hack or useful idiot. The mainstream argumentation is familiar here and is dishonest. You need to think outside the echochamber.

bingo

[Jee + 27]

17 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

If you are in the flu vaccinted group you have a near 100% chance of getting coronvirus infections. The 45% is from a Navy research paper evaluating flu vaccine's overall health outcomes. It was posted on one of the CV19 threads here at some point. You can go look for it. Flu reaches 20-40% of the people, in part because of lower R0 than the common cold and in part because of cross strain immunity as you can have antibodies to unmodified proteins on the new strain. 

There is nobody to work with if the bureaucrats in place are constantly abusing their position to undermine you and the economy and people's well being in any way they could in order to smear you with it. 

Case per million is not artificially lower. They just retained the same testing criteria, vs. those in other countries where they widened testing so there are varying baselines.. That is a consequence of their aim for herd immunity that the Swedish PM declared is nearly there. 

I suggest that you are being a Dem hack or useful idiot. The mainstream argumentation is familiar here and is dishonest. 

I'm not going to spend a day looking for a paper you read(?), but if you suggest there is a 45% reduction in flu infection rate because of vaccinations then I would get the vaccination. Since covid19 is known to be more infectious, would it be fair to assume it'd reach >50% of the population if we don't take the lockdown measures?

You can describe the political system however you want, and if you believe no one can effectively lead it, and "it" is so rotten it's beyond salvation, then don't vote, go work on a plan to overturn the system for good, you may succeed, most however would place their bets on a more capable president.

You just said Sweden took a less aggressive approach on testing (and that's consistent with their overall approach on this), so yes it'd be artificially lower if you aren't testing aggressively because not everyone would knock on your door to get tested.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[0R0 + 6,251]

6 minutes ago, Jee said:

I'm not going to spend a day looking for a paper you read(?), but if you suggest there is a 45% reduction in flu infection rate because of vaccinations then I would get the vaccination. Since covid19 is known to be more infectious, would it be fair to assume it'd reach >50% of the population if we don't take the lockdown measures?

You can describe the political system however you want, and if you believe no one can effectively lead it, then don't vote, go work on a plan to overturn the system for good, you may succeed, most however would place their bets on a more capable president.

You just said Sweden took a less aggressive approach on testing (and that's consistent with their overall approach on this), so yes it'd be artificially lower if you aren't testing aggressively because not everyone would knock on your door to get tested.

That is again, you are misreading what I am saying. Without flu vaccine you have a 45% chance of getting a COLD coronavirus. With a flu vaccine you have near 100% to get a cold virus. Flu vaccines typically work when the strains selected are the ones that show up. That is most of the time where flu prevalence is 20%. The rest of the time you have 40% prevalence. 

By my calculations, the implied rate of infection in NYC commuters was >30% by the time they locked down. By end of Mar it was >50%, and implied up to 80% among the high activity people. You only need to have school kids and their parents and crowded subway and elevator riders to gain immunity in order to have an effective barrier to the spread of the infection. Not even 40% of the people. 

The Swedish numbers are no undercounting as they stuck to their testing criteria. Others went wild and tested anything that moved as soon as more capacity became available. If your goal is herd immunity then you are interested in useful antibody tests. Not extending live virus tests. 

You need to disentangle yourself from the obfuscatory mush fed by the mainstream media and their partners in press conference crimes.  

[Chin U. Kim + 5]

On 5/9/2020 at 4:48 PM, Jim Profit said:

They engineered a chimera virus in 2015, that does not imply that SARS-COV2 is human enginereed neither that it was mad at this lab..

Unless you replace rationality by conspirationist logic..

See other posts for "circular reasoning" and "begging the question"

if you have a chance to read https://medium.com/@yurideigin/lab-made-cov2-genealogy-through-the-lens-of-gain-of-function-research-f96dd7413748

it seems to be a man-made virus more than a naturally created one.

[Jee + 27]

5 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

That is again, you are misreading what I am saying. Without flu vaccine you have a 45% chance of getting a COLD coronavirus. With a flu vaccine you have near 100% to get a cold virus. Flu vaccines typically work when the strains selected are the ones that show up. That is most of the time where flu prevalence is 20%. The rest of the time you have 40% prevalence. 

By my calculations, the implied rate of infection in NYC commuters was >30% by the time they locked down. By end of Mar it was >50%, and implied up to 80% among the high activity people. You only need to have school kids and their parents and crowded subway and elevator riders to gain immunity in order to have an effective barrier to the spread of the infection. Not even 40% of the people. 

The Swedish numbers are no undercounting as they stuck to their testing criteria. Others went wild and tested anything that moved as soon as more capacity became available. If your goal is herd immunity then you are interested in useful antibody tests. Not extending live virus tests. 

You need to disentangle yourself from the obfuscatory mush fed by the mainstream media and their partners in press conference crimes.  

I see, vaccination is a procedure whereby they inject a small amount of virus into your body, and your body would (normally) create antibodies to fight it and that's how you get immunity, which is the same principle as the so-called "herd immunity", - "herd" starts from a bunch of individuals, each individual gets a small exposure to the virus, which is not sufficient to kill them but enough to trigger antibodies. 

Unfortunately, there is no scientific proof that exposure to covid19 can trigger LASTING anti-bodies, there are antibodies in the short term, but we have;t had enough study too confirm how long it will last, would it be effective tackling future mutations etc... and this is why no one can confirm so-called "herd immunity" would work even if we reach the required infection level.

You may be right in your calculation for NY, but remember they are not doing the lockdown for themselves, they are doing it for the rest of the nation, if they allowed their people to free travel, we would have had way over 1.4 million of patients now.

Swedish testing criteria is not as aggressive, which is why their numbers are artificially lower. You only achieve more accurate numbers by adopting MORE aggressive testing criteria, not the other way around.

I reach my own conclusions about the political system of this country (which as I said is rotten and bad), my argument is given how it ugly it is, should there be a more capable president to lead it or should it be over-thrown by the people? What's the solution and how do you carry it out?

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 minutes ago, Jee said:

Unfortunately, there is no scientific proof that exposure to covid19 can trigger LASTING anti-bodies, there are antibodies in the short term, but we have;t had enough study too confirm how long it will last, would it be effective tackling future mutations etc... and this is why no one can confirm so-called "herd immunity" would work even if we reach the required infection level.

 

https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

Very sensibly, the Swedish public health authority has surveyed the prevalence of antibodies to the SARS-COV-2 virus in Stockholm County, the earliest in Sweden hit by COVID-19. They thereby estimated that 17% of the population would have been infected by 11 April, rising to 25% by 1 May 2020.[5] Yet recorded new cases had stopped increasing by 11 April (Figure 1), as had net hospital admissions,[6] and both measures have fallen significantly since. That pattern indicates that the HIT had been reached by 11April, at which point only 17% of the population appear to have been infected.

The importance of population inhomogeneity

A recent paper (Gomes et al.[7]) provides the answer. It shows that variation between individuals in their susceptibility to infection and their propensity to infect others can cause the HIT to be much lower than it is in a homogeneous population. Standard simple compartmental epidemic models take no account of such variability. And the model used in the Ferguson20 study, while much more complex, appears only to take into account inhomogeneity arising from a very limited set of factors – notably geographic separation from other individuals and household size – with only a modest resulting impact on the growth of the epidemic.[8] Using a compartmental model modified to take such variability into account, with co-variability between susceptibility and infectivity arguably handled in a more realistic way than by Gomes et al., I confirm their finding that the HIT is indeed reached at a much lower level than when the population is homogeneous. That would explain why the HIT appears to have been passed in Stockholm by mid April. The same seems likely to be the case in other major cities and regions that have been badly affected by COVID-19.

 

Read the science. Not the MSM claptrap and fear mongering. If you want to be 100% safe all the time, it is called agoraphobia and can be treated in an appropriate clinical or  institutional setting. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

7 minutes ago, Jee said:

I see, vaccination is a procedure whereby they inject a small amount of virus into your body, and your body would (normally) create antibodies to fight it and that's how you get immunity, which is the same principle as the so-called "herd immunity", - "herd" starts from a bunch of individuals, each individual gets a small exposure to the virus, which is not sufficient to kill them but enough to trigger antibodies. 

 

The vaccines contain a myriad of additional immune modifiers, usually immune suppressants to prevent the vaccine components from being cleaned out by T cells before antibodies are produced. That is a major cause of the 3-5% of bad reactions to vaccines. The results of these adjuvants inadvertently increase your susceptibility to other viruses. Considring how many colds turn into bronchitis or pneumonias, it is not necessarily a good idea unless you are already at risk for dying from a flu were you to get it..

Things are far more complex than your propaganda informed mind is grasping. 

Stop clutching at straws, understand that the medical establishment is there to extract money from you, not cure you or help, and it has lobbied bureaucrats and politicians to no end to provide such opportunities as this CV19 one is. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

@Jee 

Here I used Kinsa's temperature data to predict the % positives result in Bronx NY and compared it to the actual results

https://healthweather.us/?regionId=36005&mode=Atypical

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Jee said:

I reach my own conclusions about the political system of this country (which as I said is rotten and bad), my argument is given how it ugly it is, should there be a more capable president to lead it or should it be over-thrown by the people? What's the solution and how do you carry it out?

It would have been much less tiring for all concerned if, upon your fiery arrival at Oil Price, you had just said "Donald Trump is the reason people are dying."

3 2 1...

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

27 minutes ago, Jee said:

I reach my own conclusions about the political system of this country (which as I said is rotten and bad), my argument is given how it ugly it is, should there be a more capable president to lead it or should it be over-thrown by the people? What's the solution and how do you carry it out?

 

3 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

It would have been much less tiring for all concerned if, upon your fiery arrival at Oil Price, you had just said "Donald Trump is the reason people are dying."

3 2 1...

Actually, with my basic moderator forum tools, I see that  @Jee  originally registered on this forum in 2018, with his real name and his photo, although he never made any posts at that time.  And recently re-registered under a pseudonym as "Jee".

Jee, please do not think that using a pseudonym here makes you anonymous.  Everyone's IP address is posted for every single comment made here for moderators to see, although it is not visible to non-moderators.  Example:

Just so you know.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

22 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

Actually, with my basic moderator forum tools, I see that  @Jee  originally registered on this forum in 2018, with his real name and his photo, although he never made any posts at that time.  And recently re-registered under a pseudonym as "Jee".

Jee, please do not think that using a pseudonym here makes you anonymous.  Everyone's IP address is posted for every single comment made here for moderators to see, although it is not visible to non-moderators.  Example:

Just so you know.

You spying on me, Tom?  Fine.  And if you are so concerned with where I P, that's your business.  Doesn't bother me in the least.   

Edited May 11, 2020 by Dan Warnick
comma

[Jee + 27]

40 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The vaccines contain a myriad of additional immune modifiers, usually immune suppressants to prevent the vaccine components from being cleaned out by T cells before antibodies are produced. That is a major cause of the 3-5% of bad reactions to vaccines. The results of these adjuvants inadvertently increase your susceptibility to other viruses. Considring how many colds turn into bronchitis or pneumonias, it is not necessarily a good idea unless you are already at risk for dying from a flu were you to get it..

Things are far more complex than your propaganda informed mind is grasping. 

Stop clutching at straws, understand that the medical establishment is there to extract money from you, not cure you or help, and it has lobbied bureaucrats and politicians to no end to provide such opportunities as this CV19 one is. 

In short, you will not get a Covid19 vaccination when it becomes available, good for you, I know I will.

And it's not just this country experienced the lockdowns, most (developed) countries did.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

You spying on me, Tom?  Fine.  And if you are so concerned with where I P that's your business.  Doesn't bother me in the least.   

Nah, I just chose you as an example and blotted out your IP.  I've made similar such examples before on this forum, so members are simply aware that using a pseudonym doesn't actually hide some basic info.

Moderator tools can be useful for things like finding out if multiple user names are actually just 1 person, pretending to be different people and having discussions with himself.  I cleaned out a few of those sock puppet accounts a few months ago.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 minute ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Nah, I just chose you as an example and blotted out your IP.  I've made similar such examples before on this forum, so members are simply aware that using a pseudonym doesn't actually hide some basic info.

Moderator tools can be useful for things like finding out if multiple user names are actually just 1 person, pretending to be different people and having discussions with himself.  I cleaned out a few of those sock puppet accounts a few months ago.

Uh, I think you misread my comment.  Else I'm losing my touch.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

5 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Uh, I think you misread my comment.  Else I'm losing my touch.

DOH!  I was reading too fast and totally missed your pun:

You spying on me, Tom?  Fine.  And if you are so concerned with where I P that's your business.  Doesn't bother me in the least.