Coronavirus hype biggest political hoax in history

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Jee said:

Tell that to those REPEATING covid19 is a hoax, and lockdowns are not needed etc.

You are setting up a straw man. The discussion here is not about the virus being a hoax, but the policy and medical establishment and media reactions being a hoax. You are one too.

[Jee + 27]

18 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

I am not saying the virus is a hoax. I am saying that the connection between what governments have done in connection to it is unrelated to the virus. That what the medical establishment is doing is killing people on purpose by denying real research and tripping up all constructive efforts among practicing physicians. That the media storm of panic mongering disinformation and cooperation with the WHO and China propaganda and counter science activity is the actual news. 

Refer to my previous comments, during a war time there is not a one-size fit all solution, what saves lives for others may adversely affect you and may make no sense to you or a particular group, it will always be like that. Who knows maybe you have super immune system that you will never get infected by this virus, but I see the lock down policy as a best strategy overall, as backed by he CDC and reflected by the curves. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

1 hour ago, Jee said:

Tell that to those REPEATING covid19 is a hoax, and lockdowns are not needed etc.

Just a opinion here...throwing bombs seems to have become a art form as of late. Then there is the style or preference one choses to throw those bombs.

Much more to come...but to your point inregaurds to health care workers..yes they experienced traumatic conditions for which there was no training...After all how does modern medicine train for civil war triage in a hospital setting...

 

[Jee + 27]

8 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

My county has 177 cases. 30 hospitalizations.

Long term care facilities were targeted for placement of the infected on purpose in many places under Democratic control. Cuomo in particular has been directly implicated in doing so with the purpose of inducing further deaths in order to collect Federal funds connected with them. He is quoted as saying higher death numbers would be favorable for him politically, implying his people should do their best to create more CV19 deaths. A range of mass firings gag orders and NDAs are his and his medical regulator's attempt to cover it up  

You are either part of the big lie, or have swallowed the media panic pill. You obviously have the delusion of having made arguments. You have just spouted media soundbite gibberish.

May you suggest somewhere else for these covid+ seniors other than the long term care homes, would your county be gladly accept these patients?

[nstoika + 4]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

WMD in Iraq....are you saying there were not any, or that they were not found?

Ask the Kurds what they think....

It looks like the Kurds only told you and they "forgot" to give that info to USA Government  so they can clear the reason for invasion.

[Jee + 27]

16 minutes ago, El Gato said:

The Data is out there in front of your eyes. Wisconsin had their primary elections seven weeks ago, thousands went out and voted, Wisconsin Covid rate did not go up like a barn fire. Also you need to re-read the thread title and quit misquoting the fine gentlemen here. The HYPE is the hoax, not the virus. You keep misquoting all through the thread and was even corrected once on it.  On a personal note, I treat all  virus' with respect, just like Bees. You don't mess with bees, or shake the hive's, and they won't sting you. If you have a bee allergy, you treat them with greater respect. we have lived with Bees for a very long time, and we aren't locked from them either

If these 10k people have no covid among them, it is fine to have them gather around any time, the problem is how do you know it BEFOREHAND, that which ones are clear of this virus? I can see there is a bee but I can't see this virus. So you may get lucky being in a group gathering one time because no one happens to have the virus in that group, it doesn't mean we can go back to life as normal when there is not enough testing capacity to confirm how the virus is affecting this nation at large. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, Jee said:

Refer to my previous comments, during a war time there is not a one-size fit all solution, what saves lives for others may adversely affect you and may make no sense to you or a particular group, it will always be like that. Who knows maybe you have super immune system that you will never get infected by this virus, but I see the lock down policy as a best strategy overall, as backed but he CDC and reflected by the curves. 

There was sufficient information to selectively protect the elderly and ill and leave the rest alone with minor precautions. The Swedish model was ample and sufficient. They got similar results with voluntary work from home and masks and gloves and instituted protections to their elderly. Cost them a mild recession with 10% drop in activity, vs. 80% drop in Spain and Italy, and >40% in the US, 70% in Democrat governors' states. 

The lockdown was never even remotely necessary. You don't quarantine the healthy. There is no vaccine, there is unlikely to be a traditional vaccine because this virus kills by inducing a cytokine storm, so vaccination is likely to induce immediate cytokine storm reactions. Just like the original SARS. 

But officialdom did all the wrong things all the time. They could only be doing it on purpose. CDC and FDA preventing tests for over a month, still holding antibody tests back. Downplaying use of gloves and masks to reduce initial viral doses and probability of infection. Not doing a thing to guide people off of dense public transport and elevators etc..

Social distancing is a hoax as well. 

There is no connection between the actions taken and the science of the virus known as early as Feb. 

Go spout your garbage to someone who doesn't know better. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

8 minutes ago, Jee said:

May you suggest somewhere else for these covid+ seniors other than the long term care homes, would your county be gladly accept these patients?

NYC has tens of thousands of unoccupied hotel rooms that could have been staffed with nurses and the Javitz center was coverted into a hospital. There was no reason to send them back.

2 minutes ago, Jee said:

If these 10k people have no covid among them, it is fine to have them gather around any time, the problem is how do you know it BEFOREHAND, that which ones are clear of this virus? I can see there is a bee but I can't see this virus. So you may get lucky being in a group gathering one time because no one happens to have the virus in that group, it doesn't mean we can go back to life as normal when there is not enough testing capacity to confirm how the virus is affecting this nation at large. 

1. It is their choice. Health is individual not public. 

2. You can be careful to reduce the chances of transmission and reduce the size of the initial inoculation. 

3. Going to such events if you are healthy is not that stupid and promotes herd immunity - only caveat is that if you choose to do so you should stay away from high risk people. Like your grandparents. 

The mortality rates are highly exaggerated. The numbers are inflated - even with deliberate murder in Cuomo and apparently Whitmer's case. 

There would have been ample testing available had the FDA and CDC not deliberately sabotaged it. 

[Jee + 27]

18 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

There was sufficient information to selectively protect the elderly and ill and leave the rest alone with minor precautions. The Swedish model was ample and sufficient. They got similar results with voluntary work from home and masks and gloves and instituted protections to their elderly. Cost them a mild recession with 10% drop in activity, vs. 80% drop in Spain and Italy, and >40% in the US, 70% in Democrat governors' states. 

The lockdown was never even remotely necessary. You don't quarantine the healthy. There is no vaccine, there is unlikely to be a traditional vaccine because this virus kills by inducing a cytokine storm, so vaccination is likely to induce immediate cytokine storm reactions. Just like the original SARS. 

But officialdom did all the wrong things all the time. They could only be doing it on purpose. CDC and FDA preventing tests for over a month, still holding antibody tests back. Downplaying use of gloves and masks to reduce initial viral doses and probability of infection. Not doing a thing to guide people off of dense public transport and elevators etc..

Social distancing is a hoax as well. 

There is no connection between the actions taken and the science of the virus known as early as Feb. 

Go spout your garbage to someone who doesn't know better. 

Sweden has the highest death rate among its neighboring countries, who applied the lockdowns to curb transmission of the virus that helped the Swedish, its the same principle as if for example, if all people on earth are vaccinated against measles except you, chances are you will never get measles because other people, or in this case other NE nations, form a protection around you.

Selective quanrantine is not feasible in democratic nations, there would only be more complaints like why me, I'm different because XYZ...

But in a "perfect" world you may be right, that if we can efficiently contact tracing and individually quarantine those at risk then the rest can go life as normal, what Singapore did at the beginning (Jan-Mar) was very similar to this idea, it didn't work well for a small nation like theirs.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[Jee + 27]

11 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

NYC has tens of thousands of unoccupied hotel rooms that could have been staffed with nurses and the Javitz center was coverted into a hospital. There was no reason to send them back.

1. It is their choice. Health is individual not public. 

2. You can be careful to reduce the chances of transmission and reduce the size of the initial inoculation. 

3. Going to such events if you are healthy is not that stupid and promotes herd immunity - only caveat is that if you choose to do so you should stay away from high risk people. Like your grandparents. 

The mortality rates are highly exaggerated. The numbers are inflated - even with deliberate murder in Cuomo and apparently Whitmer's case. 

There would have been ample testing available had the FDA and CDC not deliberately sabotaged it. 

1. It's your choice to the extend that your actions don't adversely affect others, without knowing who have the virus, it puts innocent people at risk if you allow them to gather around as if it's life as normal.

2. There is no evidence that if you caught this virus and recovered from it once then you won't get it again, which is the basis for the herd immunity argument. Think of flu, you can get it repeatedly with out annual vaccination.

3. What alternative do you offer for the NY to leave those senior covid patients?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

19 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

I could do the same thing if I were interested. The fact his IP address jumps around flies against his prior statement that he was unafraid to show his singular IP address. 

What's more interesting to me are the kind of actors this site has attracted. I don't care they're playing games, I'm just curious why they're playing here. 

Does anybody run a static IP anymore?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Enthalpic

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 minutes ago, Jee said:

Sweden has the highest death rate among its neighboring countries, who applied the locks to curb transmission of the virus that helped the Swedish, its the same principle as if for example, if all people on earth are vaccinated against measles except you, chances are you will never get measles because other people, or in this case other NE nations, form a protection around you.

Selective quanrantine is not feasible in democratic nations, there would only be more complaints like why me, I'm different because XYZ...

But in a "perfect" world you may be right, that if we can efficiently contact tracing and individually quarantine those at risk then the rest can go life as normal, what Singapore did at the beginning (Jan-Mar) was very similar to this idea, it didn't work well for a small nation like theirs.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-cases-per-million-three-day-avg?tab=chart&year=2020-05-09&country=CHN+FRA+DEU+ISR+ITA+JPN+KOR+ESP+SWE+TUR+GBR+USA

Not any different on cases

Nor deaths

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&country=OWID_WRL+DEU+FRA+ITA+SWE+TUR+ESP+ISR+USA

The government is not to do the quarantines. The doctors are supposed to tell their patients. But in the US they are frightened to give advice before given "instructions" from the regulatory agencies. That advice never came. 

 

[Hotone + 412]

On 5/9/2020 at 5:29 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Bill introduced in U.S. House of Reps, asking for $100 Billion to do contract tracing. 

Basically abolishing the U.S. 4th Amendment.

==============================================

https://congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6666/text

 

Introduced in House (05/01/2020)

116th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 6666

...

A BILL
To authorize the Secretary of Health and Human Services to award grants to eligible entities to conduct diagnostic testing for COVID–19, and related activities such as contact tracing, through mobile health units and, as necessary, at individuals’ residences, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the “COVID–19 Testing, Reaching, And Contacting Everyone (TRACE) Act”.

SEC. 2. COVID–19 TESTING AND CONTACT TRACING USING MOBILE HEALTH UNITS.

(a) In General.—The Secretary of Health and Human Services, acting through the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, may award grants to eligible entities to conduct diagnostic testing for COVID–19, to trace and monitor the contacts of infected individuals, and to support the quarantine of such contacts, through—

(1) mobile health units; and

(2) as necessary, testing individuals and providing individuals with services related to testing and quarantine at their residences.

(b) Permissible Uses Of Funds.—A grant recipient under this section may use the grant funds, in support of the activities described in subsection (a)—

(1) to hire, train, compensate, and pay the expenses of individuals; and

(2) to purchase personal protective equipment and other supplies.

(c) Priority.—In selecting grant recipients under this section, the Secretary shall give priority to—

(1) applicants proposing to conduct activities funded under this section in hot spots and medically underserved communities; and

(2) applicants that agree, in hiring individuals to carry out activities funded under this section, to hire residents of the area or community where the activities will primarily occur, with higher priority among applicants described in this paragraph given based on the percentage of individuals to be hired from such area or community.

(d) Distribution.—In selecting grant recipients under this section, the Secretary shall ensure that grants are distributed across urban and rural areas.

(e) Federal Privacy Requirements.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to supersede any Federal privacy or confidentiality requirement, including the regulations promulgated under section 264(c) of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (Public Law 104–191; 110 Stat. 2033) and section 543 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 290dd–2).

(f) Definitions.—In this section:

(1) The term “eligible entity” means—

(A) a Federally qualified health center (as defined in section 1861(aa) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x(aa)));

(B) a school-based health clinic;

(C) a disproportionate share hospital (as defined under the applicable State plan under title XIX of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1396 et seq.) pursuant to section 1923(a)(1)(A) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1396r–4));

(D) an academic medical center;

(E) a nonprofit organization (including any such faith-based organization);

(F) an institution of higher education (as defined in section 101 of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 1001));

(G) a high school (as defined in section 8101 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 7801)); or

(H) any other type of entity that is determined by the Secretary to be an eligible entity for purposes of this section.

(2) The term “emergency period” has the meaning given to that term in section 1135(g)(1)(B) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1320b–5(g)(1)(B)).

(3) The term “hot spot” means a geographic area where the rate of infection with the virus that causes COVID–19 exceeds the national average.

(4) The term “medically underserved community” has the meaning given to that term in section 799B of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 295p).

(5) The term “Secretary” means the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

(g) Authorization Of Appropriations.—To carry out this section, there are authorized to be appropriated—

(1) $100,000,000,000 for fiscal year 2020; and

(2) such sums as may be necessary for each of fiscal year 2021 and any subsequent fiscal year during which the emergency period continues.

 

============================================

PDF of H.R. 6666 attached:

BILLS-116hr6666ih.pdf 308.7 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

Why does it cost so much to do contact tracing in America?  In China they already undertake aggressive testing - about 1.2 million tests a day, contact tracing, and tracking for almost the entire population.  How much did it cost them?

Here is a video of someone being pulled over and having to undergo CV19 tests, because he didn't wear a mask and had a slightly high temperature. 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Hotone

[0R0 + 6,251]

@Jee I know the facts and when they came up. You are echoing the official party line, which is made up of obfuscation and lies. You want to believe the mainstream media and "professionals" and politicians care for you and the public. The most definitely don't. Little on the Republican side, not at all on the Democratic side, soliciting disease as a business opportunity on the regulatory and pharmaceutical side. Nobody there has your back. Stop helping them. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, Hotone said:

Why does it cost so much to do contact tracing in America?  In China they already undertake aggressive testing - about 1.2 million tests a day, contact tracing and tracking.  How much did it cost them?

Here is a video of someone being pulled over and having to undergo CV19 tests:

 

It is a cost plus arrangement to produce the universal spying on individuals and have someone to lobby for it. It should be defeated. Contact tracing will not work with high prevalence. It is a useless proposition. Prevalence is high in NYC and other large cities - in the 10-40 % range. 3-5% in low density urban areas. There is absolutely no point to it from an epidemiological perspective. 

It is only a political act to abridge the 4th amendment. 

[Jee + 27]

6 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-cases-per-million-three-day-avg?tab=chart&year=2020-05-09&country=CHN+FRA+DEU+ISR+ITA+JPN+KOR+ESP+SWE+TUR+GBR+USA

Not any different on cases

Nor deaths

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/new-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&country=OWID_WRL+DEU+FRA+ITA+SWE+TUR+ESP+ISR+USA

The government is not to do the quarantines. The doctors are supposed to tell their patients. But in the US they are frightened to give advice before given "instructions" from the regulatory agencies. That advice never came. 

 

Cases/million <> death rate, Swedish death rate=3256/26670=12.2% which is the highest among its neighbors, who are similar in their public health capacities. And again let me repeat, the countries around Sweden applied social measures which helped curb the transmission of the virus, so Sweden benefited from others doing so even tho itself did not do so, not sure if it makes sense to you...

If CDC and other agencies failed this country, whose leadership is responsible for it, blame Obama?

[Jee + 27]

5 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

@Jee I know the facts and when they came up. You are echoing the official party line, which is made up of obfuscation and lies. You want to believe the mainstream media and "professionals" and politicians care for you and the public. The most definitely don't. Little on the Republican side, not at all on the Democratic side, soliciting disease as a business opportunity on the regulatory and pharmaceutical side. Nobody there has your back. Stop helping them. 

I mean the highest official is your favorite so I don't think you are getting anywhere.

[0R0 + 6,251]

26 minutes ago, Jee said:

1. It's your choice to the extend that your actions don't adversely affect others, without knowing who have the virus, it puts innocent people at risk if you allow them to gather around as if it's life as normal.

2. There is no evidence that if you caught this virus and recovered from it once then you won't get it again, which is the basis for the herd immunity argument. Think of flu, you can get it repeatedly with out annual vaccination.

3. What alternative do you offer for the NY to leave those senior covid patients?

Nobody is innocent unless they had their house broken into and assaulted by a carrier of the disease. 

If only 3.7-3.9% of staff at Wuhan's central hospital had been infected, than surely you can defend yourself with masks frequent handwashing sanitizing and gloves when in public. It doesn't need to be 

This is a virus, there are a small portion of viruses where you do not obtain immunity for any significant length of time. The flu are different strains each time. If what you are saying were true, then vaccines wouldn't work either. 

Gave a couple of examples of where seniors could have gone. 

 

[Jee + 27]

Just now, 0R0 said:

Nobody is innocent unless they had their house broken into and assaulted by a carrier of the disease. 

If only 3.7-3.9% of staff at Wuhan's central hospital had been infected, than surely you can defend yourself with masks frequent handwashing sanitizing and gloves when in public. It doesn't need to be 

This is a virus, there are a small portion of viruses where you do not obtain immunity for any significant length of time. The flu are different strains each time. If what you are saying were true, then vaccines wouldn't work either. 

Gave a couple of examples of where seniors could have gone. 

 

1. Innocent or not without knowing if you have the virus, we should not let people gather around you, because if they contract the virus from you they can further spread it to others who don't want the virus, which is most of us.

2. What's your point, the data from China is not reliable, we know this but how does it help?

3. Flus are caused by virus by definition, it's only when the virus becomes significantly stronger we start to pay attention like this, like the H1N1 FLU.

4. What are those examples, may I suggest an example that we send a couple of them to where you live and see if you can do any better?

[0R0 + 6,251]

4 minutes ago, Jee said:

Cases/million <> death rate, Swedish death rate=3256/26670=12.2% which is the highest among its neighbors, who are similar in their public health capacities. And again let me repeat, the countries around Sweden applied social measures which helped curb the transmission of the virus, so Sweden benefited from others doing so even tho itself did not do so, not sure if it makes sense to you...

If CDC and other agencies failed this country, whose leadership is responsible for it, blame Obama?

The Swedes did it right. Their death rates are only materially different than their neighbors these last two weeks. 

Note that the center of the Swedish outbreak is in Copenhagen in Denmark, where nearly 1 million Swedes and Danes commute back and forth daily. Prevalence in Copenhagen is 15%. So what the Danish government imposed might mean something for Sweden. 

But that is thin evidence that the lockdowns elsewhere were a net benefit, not to speak of being in any way necessary. 

I disagree with the goal of stopping the spread. That prevents herd immunity. The spread needs to be slowed down and high risk people assisted with self protection. That does not require lockdowns or any thing remotely similar. 

The bureaucracy is its own creature, thoroughly politicized and corrupt to the core, being as heavily lobbied as Congress. 

 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

3 minutes ago, Jee said:

1. Innocent or not without knowing if you have the virus, we should not let people gather around you, because if they contract the virus from you they can further spread it to others who don't want the virus, which is most of us.

2. What's your point, the data from China is not reliable, we know this but how does it help?

3. Flus are caused by virus by definition, it's only when the virus becomes significantly stronger we start to pay attention like this, like the H1N1 FLU.

4. What are those examples, may I suggest an example that we send a couple of them to where you live and see if you can do any better?

I can avoid the people gathering out of concern for myself, wear a mask, use disinfectants. 

There was no indication of age and comorbidity data from China having been manipulated. 

It isn't the case at all that stronger or more lethal viruses are related to the vaccination or weakness of herd immunity.  This is not a highly lethal virus without special conditions. The only problem is that it is contagious as a cold coronavirus and none of us have residual immunity from it from prior exposures to similar viruses

Look at the posts above to see some suggestions. 

[Jee + 27]

15 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The Swedes did it right. Their death rates are only materially different than their neighbors these last two weeks. 

Note that the center of the Swedish outbreak is in Copenhagen in Denmark, where nearly 1 million Swedes and Danes commute back and forth daily. Prevalence in Copenhagen is 15%. So what the Danish government imposed might mean something for Sweden. 

But that is thin evidence that the lockdowns elsewhere were a net benefit, not to speak of being in any way necessary. 

I disagree with the goal of stopping the spread. That prevents herd immunity. The spread needs to be slowed down and high risk people assisted with self protection. That does not require lockdowns or any thing remotely similar. 

The bureaucracy is its own creature, thoroughly politicized and corrupt to the core, being as heavily lobbied as Congress. 

 

Denmark death rate=533/10711=5% VS 12% of Sweden and you call it what? Norway = 224/8122-2.8%, Finland 271/5984=4.5% and it's not material difference?

Herd immunity is only applicable if you can only get this virus once then develop immunity against it, that's not the case here, at least no scientific proof. This is not something like measles.

Given what the bureaucracy is like (which I'm not arguing with), do you want a revolution to take most of them out, or do you want someone who can work with them and stern things towards the right direction?

If the agencies can work efficiently by themselves then what do we need a president for, as a cheer leader?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee

[El Nikko + 2,145]

2 hours ago, TooSteep said:

"...Using Minnesota as an example, we have 5,600,000 residents, 80,000 of whom live in these senior congregate settings. When I did this analysis a couple of days ago, we had 508 deaths, 407 in those settings. So 407 divided by 80,000 is a death rate of .51%. 101 divided by 5,520,000 is a death rate of .002%. That is a 255 times greater death rate among that congregate living group."

The main article is interesting, but that commenter's data on nursing homes really puts things into focus:

https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

 

Edited to add a link to the original, but it doesn't have all the interesting comments:

https://www.nicholaslewis.org/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/

Just reading through a summary of than posted on another blog, it's quite an eye opener.

 

[Jee + 27]

7 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

I can avoid the people gathering out of concern for myself, wear a mask, use disinfectants. 

There was no indication of age and comorbidity data from China having been manipulated. 

It isn't the case at all that stronger or more lethal viruses are related to the vaccination or weakness of herd immunity.  This is not a highly lethal virus without special conditions. The only problem is that it is contagious as a cold coronavirus and none of us have residual immunity from it from prior exposures to similar viruses

Look at the posts above to see some suggestions. 

Perhaps you can, but if we didn't have the lockdown measures many won't.

The evidence is it's from the CCP, who is known for manipulating data.

How do we develop herd immunity if people will just contract it again and again? 

I'm looking for an example where you claim others did it poorly and you show them you can do better.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jee