Troubles in the European Union

[Jason Martin + 58]

On 5/6/2020 at 2:18 AM, ronwagn said:

A GROWING row inside the European Union has led one member-state leader to question whether the Netherlands are "truly committed" to the Brussels-led project, hinting that the Dutch should "be left out" of EU deals.

Sometimes I doubt their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 minute ago, Hotone said:

I have worked with some Chinese people on IT services projects and a lot of them are grossly incompetent, especially on their management side.  It makes you wonder how they managed to achieve what they have...

Wait....you have worked with incompetent Chines IT types....yet you post a video espousing the greatness of an apparently fully automated Chinese port facility!

What, exactly, are you trying to tell us?

[Hotone + 412]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Wait....you have worked with incompetent Chines IT types....yet you post a video espousing the greatness of an apparently fully automated Chinese port facility!

What, exactly, are you trying to tell us?

With regards to the Chinese incompetence - it's a fact; I am just posting my observation and not taking any political position.  

With regards to Chinese infrastructure, I took a holiday to Shanghai last Christmas, and was amazed by the skyline, cleanliness and modern facilities. I had expected it to be worse and was worried about pollution because of all the negative things we had read in the Western media. 

For the ports, I only reposted a video which I believe to be true.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Hotone

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Newer mega cities  are always modern in infrastructure, as it can learn experiences from other mega city and for China cities, infrastructure matches CCP domestical goal concentrated in Real Estates industry. The marvelous city in the last Century used to be NY, then Paris after the world wars and now China. I haven't heard anyone negatives about pollution in Shanghai from Western Media but Beijing in Olympic 2008, where they have to stop the manufacturing for days to reduce the smoke. I expect the pollution index in Shanghai is as good as HK.

Shanghai is famous port hub and naturally they invested in infrastructure, it doesn't mean they manufacture all of them. If we talk about automation or Cranes, then Germany have the most advance technology to sell to any country read to pay. Any large ports will be worth to invest for modernization because the cost per container will be lower in economy of scale. Shanghai is the biggest commercial port in the world and I am not surprised they can build that. China is a biggest exporting country.

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Hotone said:

I have worked with some Chinese people on IT services projects and a lot of them are grossly incompetent, especially on their management side.  It makes you wonder how they managed to achieve what they have...

Not at all.  Did I mention I lived and worked in China for 9 years?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Hotone said:

With regards to the Chinese incompetence - it's a fact; I am just posting my observation and not taking any political position.  

With regards to Chinese infrastructure, I took a holiday to Shanghai last Christmas, and was amazed by the skyline, cleanliness and modern facilities. I had expected it to be worse and was worried about pollution because of all the negative things we had read in the Western media. 

For the ports, I only reposted a video which I believe to be true.

I don't know why you expected it to be worse? Shanghai is a financial hub of mainland China with scores of multinationals there.  Buildings in Shanghai have all been built within the last 30'ish years, continuously (tear down the old/construct the new).  Pollution from Shanghai and the surrounding areas is moved away by the ocean air currents and, on an unfavorable day, can be seen all up and down the North American west coast.  For inland cities the pollution will almost literally choke you on a bad day, and on a good day it can easily be seen on your kleenex (sorry).

[Hotone + 412]

22 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Not at all.  Did I mention I lived and worked in China for 9 years?

When and where, may I ask?  

I first went to Shanghai to conduct a 1 day seminar in 1994.  I was pretty inexperienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backward (and poor) at the time.  In 1996, I worked for a few months on an IT project in Shenzen, and the client's IT staff were quite lazy. They still had the Communist mentality and didn't have much motivation. I believe that my project was one of the first Western IT system implementations in China for that industry. 

Since then I haven't gone to China until last year.  Shanghai has changed a lot and is now wealthier and more modern than my home city of KL.  On my recent trip, we took a tour to Sozhou and Hangzhou as well, and didn't experience any pollution. We went to a tea plantation and the air was crisp and very fresh.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Hotone

[Marcin2 + 726]

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Edited May 19, 2020 by Marcin2
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[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

I guess having long coastlines on the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean , the Gulf of Mexico, plus the infrastructure to ship by rail or road between the three is detrimental to advancing world trade. Funny that...🤔

[SUZNV + 1,197]

IMHO, I think land transport are still too expensive for both capital and maintenance costs for long distances for trucks or train. For example the roads go through the mountain are subject to landslides, weather and different terrain will induce more hidden cost, animal or human suicides, terrorists or land pirates, war zone etc. Secondly all of the countries along the road will have to have some kind of agreement for freely move for efficiency so it will be more vulnerable to diplomacy relationship. And it is in the competition between air and sea transport so it depends on oil price as well.. So many uncertainty and hidden cost with a very very heavy capital investment, huge risk. 

For the same distance, sea transport will be much cheaper and higher bandwidth and lots of international sea. trading route. The bell is more important than the road in BRI. It can be even cheaper if the north pole have less ice in the future. And China did have a plan for Kra canal as well so the Road must be a way to put the poor countries in debt trap.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Well said!

[Marcin2 + 726]

 

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Edited May 19, 2020 by Marcin2
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[Marcin2 + 726]

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Edited May 19, 2020 by Marcin2
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[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Hotone said:

When and where, may I ask?  

I first went to Shanghai to conduct a 1 day seminar in 1994.  I was pretty inexperienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backward (and poor) at the time.  In 1996, I worked for a few months on an IT project in Shenzen, and the client's IT staff were quite lazy. They still had the Communist mentality and didn't have much motivation. I believe that my project was one of the first Western IT system implementations in China for that industry. 

Since then I haven't gone to China until last year.  Shanghai has changed a lot and is now wealthier and more modern than my home city of KL.  On my recent trip, we took a tour to Sozhou and Hangzhou as well, and didn't experience any pollution. We went to a tea plantation and the air was crisp and very fresh.

1989-1999.  Based in Chengdu, Sichuan, but my job supporting the Chinese airlines took me to all corners.

The pace of change is and has been phenomenal.  We used to go on 4 weeks' home leave and HQ visit, and upon return be amazed at new, fully framed 10-15 story buildings having sprouted up while we were gone!  Most cities, especially Beijing in the early days, were like cities of cranes.  Never seen so many cranes.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

1 hour ago, Marcin2 said:

Manufacturing example. I produce product X and need 5 components that come from different countries.

1st case: My factory is in US

I need to transport components to isolated end of the world that is US, 15 days across Atlantic or Pacific.

I assembly in 5 days.

And I need to transport my products from isolated end of the world that is US again across Atlantic or Pacific to global markets in Eurasia another 15 days.

In total 35 days.

2nd example 

My factory is in China.

So first my components travel 1000 miles ( not 4,000-7,000 like in US) that is 6 days.

I assembly in 5 days.

And majority of my products travel 6 days to Eurasian clients.

In total 17 days.

Some of my products need to travel across Atlantic or Pacific to isolated end of the world that id US which takes me 15 days.

So for US market it is 26 days.

I start to understand more from your example. There are some problems with that calculation with railway (assume that the driving road is not as efficient).

1 We cannot use best case scenario for land transport, a earthquake or an accident or wars will result a huge interruption, the longer the railway or the more busy the rail road, the higher the risk.  While, god forbid, a ship sinks, it does not affect other ships, same with air transport. 

2 A railroad between China directly to Europe may have to pay rent and maintenance fees for middle countries. China lend money for them to build the infrastructure not to watch Chinese goods transport to Europe and they got nothing.  Each will ask for money and it will have to be appropriate with their investment.

3 Like oil transport or in IT tech, you can always have a storage/cache and the goods may not need to be in real time. It only an advantage in agriculture export to China only, and even live stocks can wait.. And their insurance costs will be higher due to 1.

4 Europe can sell agriculture products to China but in automation, cars, renewable energy tech, they  are competitors on their own market. Europe-China trade volumes is about the same with US-China trade volume. How about the biggest market US? The good made in USA and sell in USA will save 15 days from crossing again. While from China, it will be still the same for transportation. So lose here and gain there.

5 As I stated above, efficiency railroads vs investment and maintenance cost+ renting. If it is too high, then air transports will be must faster. The high price of air transports now are based on no competition for urgent goods because the alternatives will be shipping . If there is a worthy alternative, they could just match the price or tiny big higher and beat the railway with time. That is how it happens inside US East Coast and West Coast.

From my experiences, if the politicians praise something  "in the future" longer than 10 years, they could be as well as dreaming, because they maybe gone by then. For EU Leaders, they lose nothing and gain if it is success, risk free and can improve relationship with China so why should they not be "excited". They just try to make some impression that they lay the foundations for their next elections or to pocket bribery/tax money. 

What I can think off, China can see it as well. But the  trap besides all of the shining future prospect, if it is even successful is:

1 As I said above, bound by debt, how long for renting and servicing to pay off the debt?

2 A railway is meaningless without goods from China/Europe go through it.

So these middle countries will bear the risk for the investment, not China, a kind of they are in mortgage and China is the bank. Even if these countries declare bankruptcy later on, China can benefit from the assets and if the assets worth nothing, they can reduce some of the debts so these countries will not declare bankruptcy and they still have a grab on them.

Secondly they can do exercise their military to "protect their interest" outside of China's border.

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by SUZNV

[ronwagn + 6,290]

11 hours ago, Jason Martin said:

Sometimes I doubt their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

?!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

23 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

12 hours ago, Jason Martin said:

Sometimes I doubt their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

?!

urban dictionary: Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparklemotion

 

[Jason Martin + 58]

19 hours ago, ronwagn said:

?!

Essentially I'm comparing the European Project to a dance troupe of 6 year olds. And making fun of them for chastising the netherlands for "not taking it seriously."

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/12/2020 at 8:59 AM, Hotone said:

When and where, may I ask?  

I first went to Shanghai to conduct a 1 day seminar in 1994.  I was pretty inexperienced back then, but the Chinese were quite backward (and poor) at the time.  In 1996, I worked for a few months on an IT project in Shenzen, and the client's IT staff were quite lazy. They still had the Communist mentality and didn't have much motivation. I believe that my project was one of the first Western IT system implementations in China for that industry. 

Since then I haven't gone to China until last year.  Shanghai has changed a lot and is now wealthier and more modern than my home city of KL.  On my recent trip, we took a tour to Sozhou and Hangzhou as well, and didn't experience any pollution. We went to a tea plantation and the air was crisp and very fresh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-polluted_cities_by_particulate_matter_concentration

China definitely has the most polluted air in the world overall. 

[Hotone + 412]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-polluted_cities_by_particulate_matter_concentration

China definitely has the most polluted air in the world overall. 

You are right. Thanks for the information. One of the cities, I had wanted to visit in the future was Chongqing.  I hear that its skyline is so fantastic that it makes Shanghai seem small .  It's AQI, as seen online, is definitely unhealthy and much worse than my home city of KL.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Hotone

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

12 minutes ago, Hotone said:

You are right. Thanks for the information. One of the cities, I had wanted to visit in the future was Chongqing.  I hear that its skyline is so fantastic that it makes Shanghai seem small .  It's AQI, as seen online, is definitely unhealthy and much worse than my home city of KL.

It’s those damn Yanks again! Everything is their fault! They need to stop meddling in other peoples affairs!

Isolationism is the key!!!!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

12 minutes ago, Hotone said:

You are right. Thanks for the information. One of the cities, I had wanted to visit in the future was Chongqing.  I hear that its skyline is so fantastic that it makes Shanghai seem small .  It's AQI, as seen online, is definitely unhealthy and much worse than my home city of KL.

Chongqing is a 20 minute flight from Chengdu, where I lived.  The airline in Chongqing was/is a branch of what used to be called China Southwest Airlines, and as such I had to go there about every 2 weeks in my support role.  Lots of trips.  The good thing for me was that they got a Holiday Inn before Chengdu did, so I could have the chef fix me a nice western dinner every time I went.

Chongqing from the air on a clear day is beautiful.  The problem is it seemed like there were very few clear days all year long.  If my memory serves correctly, the airport is on top of 2 mountaintops, or hilltops depending on your definition, that were leveled out together to make room for the runway.  Very interesting and sometimes white knuckle landings!

Once inside the city it is tough going if you don't have motorized transport because the street grades are so steep that walking becomes exhausting.  Having said that, it is a city with great old world charm.  Take that with a grain of salt, because the rate of change and modernization in China is phenomenal and everything could be different now.  I have seen a recent video by a couple of American(?) ladies going around the city with their children and it looked like fun.  They walked up and down old streets and alleyways but travelled from place to place by car.

Hope that is useful information for you.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

5 hours ago, Hotone said:

You are right. Thanks for the information. One of the cities, I had wanted to visit in the future was Chongqing.  I hear that its skyline is so fantastic that it makes Shanghai seem small .  It's AQI, as seen online, is definitely unhealthy and much worse than my home city of KL.

That is a nice concise weather report in one graphic, especially for a polluted area. I remember my lungs hurting in Los Angeles if I was active back in the 1950s and early sixties. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

54 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

That is a nice concise weather report in one graphic, especially for a polluted area. I remember my lungs hurting in Los Angeles if I was active back in the 1950s and early sixties. 

What were you smoking back then, Ron?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Dan Warnick
n

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Camels or Dutch Masters.