US To Remove Patriot Missile Protection From Saudi Arabia Amid Oilpocalypse - - ZeroHedge

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

The S-400 missile system is a anti-AIRCRAFT system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

The Patriot system is an ABM capable system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

The S-400 missile system is a anti-AIRCRAFT system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

The Patriot system is an ABM capable system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

This data is interesting from those links:

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Turkey has NOT tested the system against ballistic missiles.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Trouble in Paradise.

I'm shocked.  Shocked I tell you!

Is Trump Kicking the Saudis to the Curb the Beginning of Something Not Terrible?

More than anything else in Saudi Arabia, that thing you smell is fear. Everything is coming unglued for the royal family there all at once. If we all weren’t so distracted by the Coronapocalypse these things would all be front page news.

In the past week there have been three major stories concerning Saudi Arabia, none of the bullish.

First, there was the news that UAE-backed forces in Yemen broke with the Saudis-led coalition there to declare the Southern Transitional Council the new administrators over southern Yemen which includes the capital and major port at Aden.

This led to major clashes over the next week between forces which less than two weeks ago were supposedly on the same side.

In addition, Saudi mercenaries were routed in Northern Yemen. The UAE pulled its troops out of Yemen ending its fight with the Houthis after the attack on the Ab Qaiq oil processing facility last summer.

Finally, the Saudis accepted a UN-brokered ceasefire with the Houthis. This is a two-week provisional ceasefire, but considering how badly their mercs and pet head-chopping animals have been faring this should be considered a mercy gesture by the Houthis.

The war against Yemen has reached its terminal stage and it only took the impending financial collapse of the entire world to get it done.

Next up we have two news items from Thursday which underscore just how irrelevant the Wahabist government in Riyadh has become.

They accepted the reality that they can’t win an oil price war with the Russians by raising the tender prices for Saudi Aramco grades across the board. They had no choice since China told them they liked more expensive Russian oil better.

Buying from the Salman family is like buying from Donald Trump and under the current set of geopolitical imperatives China’s leaderships would be colossal fools to do so just to save a few dollars.  ...

 

Trump’s been vocal about how vulnerable the regime in Riyadh is without his support. But the bigger reason for this, I think, has nothing to do with punishing Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman for starting an oil price war which created a mess in U.S. oil markets.

This is about Trump realizing that oil should no longer be central to foreign policy objectives. In a world of $20-25 per barrel oil, why are we basing our entire foreign policy, which costs trillions we now truly cannot afford, on controlling the physical commodity markets which we are more than capable of producing?  ...

 

... With oil this low the petrodollar simply isn’t that important anymore and neither is the survival of what we currently know as Saudi Arabia.

 

[James Regan + 1,776]

3 hours ago, BLA said:

Turkey

Doug needs more info you can’t get of that lightly. Need serial number and target and launch site dates etc.

shoukd be easy enough to get your dealing with an Engineer 

Doug before you misinterpret he was not calling you a Turkey , although sometimes you do gobble a bit 😂

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

27 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Doug needs more info you can’t get of that lightly. Need serial number and target and launch site dates etc.

shoukd be easy enough to get your dealing with an Engineer 

Doug before you misinterpret he was not calling you a Turkey , although sometimes you do gobble a bit 😂

Wanka!😂

Easing lockdown here. Rode today. Damn near hit a wild pig!

How’s it going there. Send. WhatsApp.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

45 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Easing lockdown here. Rode today. Damn near hit a wild pig!

Went walking by the river, looks like the beavers are busy again.

 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

4 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

This data is interesting from those links:

I think they're quite different systems in age and design purpose and also the costs look very odd. The S-400 price is for the whole unit of 9 launchers and the command and support systems. I think it would be completely impossible for the Patriot battalion of 6 launchers and the rest to be 2-3 million dollars it's probably a lot more than the Russian system.

The Patriot is really quite old now and the US and other western countries have much more modern systems in development and production it's just hard to get details on them without going full nerd for the afternoon.

Either way I doubt it would be much fun to be in a jet be shot at by any of the modern missiles which is why so much money has been put into so called 'stealth' which really just means 'low observable' and reduces the range at which a radar can lock up the aircraft. The shorter the range the aircraft can be locked up means that an aircraft can theoretically get closer to the radar and command system in order to fire a missile to knock it out.

There's an interesting video on youtube of an F-16 pilot being fired on over Baghdad during the gulf war in 1991, the missiles and radar would have been pretty old Soviet systems (Sa-2) and you can hear in his voice that he's pulling very high Gs to evade them.

Imagine the modern technology today

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

@Tom Kirkman What happened to your legend status?

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

29 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

@Tom Kirkman What happened to your legend status?

We have statuses?  No idea, I just keep commenting.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

9 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

We have statuses?  No idea, I just keep commenting.

Ranks I mean. I've written enough to reach "Veteran". At one point you had "Legend". 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 minute ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Ranks I mean. I've written enough to reach "Veteran". At one point you had "Legend". 

Ah, that.  I never really pay attention to those things, just keep posting.  So far here, I have 6k comments.  Just a motormouth.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Turkey has NOT tested the system against ballistic missiles.

This is one point I've seen mentioned before, and it holds true. There's basically a huge debate between anti American Russian bots and rational people about the S400 vs Patriot systems. 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

14 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

This is one point I've seen mentioned before, and it holds true. There's basically a huge debate between anti American Russian bots and rational people about the S400 vs Patriot systems. 

I'm sure the Russians test their missiles in the same way the US or any other country does and I'm quite sure they've tested them against balistic missiles that doesn't mean anyone is taking sides or being a bot.

The patriot is an old system, if you want to compare the latest stuff the THAAD and other US built SAMs would make more sense.

Like it or not the Russians have made fairly good weapons over the years, they're probably not better but they are generally cheaper and possibly come with less strings attached and also all countries sell an export version of their weapon systems which are never as good as the US or Russian systems kept for their own military. Having said that we'll never really know us less the US actually fights Russia which hopefully will never happen but the US has far more money and war is expensive.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

The S-400 missile system is a anti-AIRCRAFT system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_missile_system

The Patriot system is an ABM capable system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

Blatantly not true.  They are both, both.  One NIT in your favor: there are different VERSIONS of Patriot missiles which fall under the Patriot name.

PS: Little known fact, All of the Israel anti missile defenses(iron dome davids sling etc) are 50% paid for and will not function without components from the USA who holds license to build said systems if/when desired.  Why?  Spending a Million bucks to shoot down a $200 drone is not exactly a good cost analysis and smaller was required so the USA looked for partners and Israel volunteered and more importantly... Good place for testing eh?  😉

[BLA + 1,666]

On 5/8/2020 at 3:43 PM, James Regan said:

I agree the US should pull right out and let the dice roll, my thoughts are its a token gesture to keep certain hawks at bay in gov.com There a much bigger picture at play here, how do you just walk away from all that work done, it would be like a kick in the nuts when Putin roles in to fill the vacuum or worse still the Chinky Chonkies Yellow Peril rolling out the silk carpet. Lots to be considered.

U.S. DOES NOT NEED SAUDIS

SAIDIS NEED CHINA'S OIL BUSINESS TO SURVIVE.

Bet you China and Saudis get a little closer.  Unless there is a new understanding between U.S. and Saudis. 

(India growing demand)

I agree pull the U.S. troops out.  Trump needs to get over the dream that MBS will deliver a ME peace plan.  

The Chinese are not just going after the EU, Africa and Southeast Asia. They have their claws in the ME as well.

* China was investing in Iran back during the Obama/Kerry negotiation days. Just waiting to get going again. 

* China is expanding in Iraq nudging Exxon, BP and Shell out.  

* China was in Libya building railroads, ports and negotiating Oil JV deals before Tony Blair and Hillary Clinton became involved in Libyan civil war. 

Saudi decisions going forward are all based on one simple precept ,  . . . Survival.  

Their oil based economy and the Royal Saudi Family continued rule is all about survival.  Never has that been more important than now. Their oil economy will depend on maintaining the #1 oil  exporter to China status.

What happens when Iran normalizes, increases production and starts competing for China's oil business?

What happens when Libya normalizes, increases production and starts competing for China's oil business ?

What happens as China increases JV oil development in Iraq and buying more of Iraq oil exports ?

U.S. doesn't need Saudi oil.  So Saudis/MBS offers a promise of ME peace deal in lieu of the black goo.  Trump takes the bait and continues to spend $34 Billion a year keeping the ME oil production flowing and Shipping lanes open so Saudi Arabia  Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar and UAE can ship oil to CHINA.  

Donald, MBS can not deliver ME peace.  Spend the $34 Billion /year on U.S. infrastructure.

Donald EU (Germany) is going do business with China over U.S. and they Will install Huawei 5G network. Put a tariff on EU vehicles and Auto Parts ASAP. 

Donald, you don't want to be in the ME when the Schiff hits the fan. Bring all the troops home. No more dead American soldiers so MBS can drive a Bugatti. 

Donald the EU/Germany will buy natural gas and oil from Russia before they buy from U.S.  You delayed but won't stop the Baltic gas pipeline. Put those tariffs on vehicles and Auto Parts.

Donald, focus more attention on our trading with our North and South American.

Saudi Arabia's need for China to purchase their oil trumps anything the U.S. can offer. 

The World Wide Recession has given China a golden opportunity.  The EU, Africa and ME needs their assistance more than ever.  There apparently is nothing a a DIVIDED HOSTILE U.S. Congress can do about.  Congress will thwart any attempt you make to unite the U.S. or Europe against Chinese hegemony. 

Donald you should continue to reach out to EU, Saudi Arabia and others. Offer to work with them in a true partnerships.  BUT DON'T PLAY THEIR FOOL.  Who knows they may come to their senses and realize cozying up to Russia and China is not a better option than the U.S.  

Edited May 10, 2020 by BLA

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Went walking by the river, looks like the beavers are busy again.

 

You need a coonhound

[0R0 + 6,251]

22 minutes ago, BLA said:

Their oil based economy and the Royal Saudi Family continued rule is all about survival.  Never has that been more important than now.  Their oil economy will depend on maintaining their #1 exporter to China.  

 

Not happening. China is captive to Russian alliance. So long as Russian oil is in the ballpark of competitive global prices it is China's preferred source. Only the tea pot refiners buy by price. China buys politically. They supported Russian oil exports at above Saudi prices and left Saudi tankers floating at port for weeks as  each new Russia delivery got unloaded. 

The Saudi customers include China only as a buyer of excess, what Russia can't supply.  

[BLA + 1,666]

3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

Not happening. China is captive to Russian alliance. So long as Russian oil is in the ballpark of competitive global prices it is China's preferred source. Only the tea pot refiners buy by price. China buys politically. They supported Russian oil exports at above Saudi prices and left Saudi tankers floating at port for weeks as  each new Russia delivery got unloaded. 

The Saudi customers include China only as a buyer of excess, what Russia can't supply.  

I beg to differ.  It all depends.

The number one supplier to China has been flipping back an forth between Russia and Saudis.  China always playing suppliers against each other for price.  They are very good at it.

During recent demand destruction the ports could not handle any more intake. The Russians kept their pipelines flowing to northern and interior China with the heavily discounted Ural oil. Many Chinese refineries prefer the Ural grade. 

In April China starting buying tankers of cheap Saudi oil ($17 to $20). Saudis got cocky and raised their prices for May.  Still inexpensive but the storage tanks are filling up. China takes a pause. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by BLA

[James Regan + 1,776]

4 hours ago, BLA said:

* China was in Libya building railroads, ports and negotiating Oil JV deals before Tony Blair and Hillary Clinton became involved in Libyan civil war. 

When was this then, as we were heavily involved bombing Libya in the 80s, the Italians were there long before anyone cutting oil  deals which are still there today. Nice place Libya I had the pleasure of working there on a few occasions.

Edited May 9, 2020 by James Regan

[James Regan + 1,776]

Good point worth mentioning, don't expect anything to happen, expect lots of maybes and rhetoric, in this year of election nothing happens historically absolutely nothing especially anything that would upset the world order, unless you have a madman who may lose then anything can happen, as this is not the case for the USA I would say debating monumental wars or deal breakers are off the table, just swagger.

Edited May 9, 2020 by James Regan

[James Regan + 1,776]

5 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

We have statuses?  No idea, I just keep commenting.

I think the Majors should have something to work towards something like "Dictator" "OilGod" or "Sheik" ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS? (not shouting caps lock)

Edited May 9, 2020 by James Regan

[BLA + 1,666]

16 hours ago, James Regan said:

When was this then, as we were heavily involved bombing Libya in the 80s, the Italians were there long before anyone cutting oil  deals which are still there today. Nice place Libya I had the pleasure of working there on a few occasions.

" .  .  as we were heavily involved bombing Libya in the 80s .  ." 

James who is "we".

 What is your point ? 

Many international oil companies were in Libya .   .   .   the same as in Iraq, Saudi, Iran , etc.  

In Libya were U.S. Conoco one of the largest, BP English, ENI Italian , Total French.

Nobody is pumping oil there today. 

Reagan bombed Khadafi in the 80's.  It's not like he didn't deserve it. Reagan made peace with Khadafi after he gave up his nuclear program.  

Whether you agree with Khadafi or not he kept Libya under control.  Too many factions in Libya.  The country is a collection of 28 different tribes with entirely different agendas.  Seems like the "Strongman Government" model is the only form of government that works.  Not our problem. 

Then your Tony Blair and U.S. Hillary Clinton , along with the French and Italians didn't care for Khadafi negotiating with Russia and China for new oil JVs so they made up a false narrative of genocide, pushed thru United Nations and bombed Libya. Hillary worked with some very dangerous Islamist hunted down Khadafi and killed him.  They left a mess in Libya that is still there today.  All for the oil.   

If BP, ENI or Total want to fight the Chinese and Russian oil companies for JVs in Libya be our guest.  Just don't think they can get the U.S. to form a coalition of the willing (willing to take the oil and let U.S. do all the bombing) backed by the U.N. to negotiate. Hillary is retired (hopefully). 

My point is China is on the move in ME. Always has been.  Certain countries have welcomed them. More will after the CV19.  That's their business.  All fine by me.  

Being a Chinese vassal state not my cup of tea.

What's your point ? I honestly don't understand.  

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by BLA

[BLA + 1,666]

16 hours ago, James Regan said:

Good point worth mentioning, don't expect anything to happen, expect lots of maybes and rhetoric, in this year of election nothing happens historically absolutely nothing especially anything that would upset the world order, unless you have a madman who may lose then anything can happen, as this is not the case for the USA I would say debating monumental wars or deal breakers are off the table, just swagger.

Don't think anyone wants war ?  Except the crazies in Iran.  That's who you need to watch. 

The Saudis blaming all their problems on U.S. shale is stupid.  The world is changing.  They will fair better working with the U.S. , not trying unsuccessfully to screw them. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by BLA

[El Gato + 254]

Anti-missile and anti-aircraft are two different things. All the shoot downs by Turkey have been air-to-air so far. So thus far the system hasn't shot anything down in Turkey yet. And the lat I read, all of the components are not there yet to set up a battery. Some missiles can shoot down both aircraft and missiles, suck as the Patriot, the SM-3, and SM-6, and most others can't. or haven't proven the capability.

On the Saudi Patriots, they are being rotated back to the states along with 2 other systems in the ME. Aside from them not being on when the refinery attacks, Patriots would not work on low slow flying targets either. They are a medium low altitude to a medium high altitude weapon system. A low and slow drone attack would have never registered on their systems.I'm not sure  the Saudis have anything effective against drones yet. Also on the maintenance side of things, all of their military equipment is contracted out for maintenance, APC's to aircraft.