New York State rejects environmental permit for Williams Co. natural gas pipeline

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Hey New York State, good luck freezing your butts off in the coming winters.  Virtue Signaling Climate Panic absurdity.  Darwin Freezing Awards coming soon.

State rejects environmental permit for Williams Co. natural gas pipeline

New York State on Friday once again rejected an environmental permit for a contested natural gas pipeline to the region, delivering a potentially fatal blow to the $1.4 billion project sought by National Grid.

The state Department of Environmental Conservation in a statement Friday said construction of the 23.4-mile Northeast Supply Enhancement pipeline in state waters "would not meet New York State's rigorous water quality standards" and result in "significant water quality impacts …"

The decision marks the third time the project's environmental permit application has been rejected. 

Of primary concern to the state agency in rejecting the permit by developer Williams Co. for the pipeline to supply National Grid's downstate region were "re-suspension of sediments and other contaminants, including mercury and copper" that "would disturb sensitive habitats, including shellfish beds and other bottom-dwelling marine life …" 

New York is "not prepared to sacrifice the state’s water quality for a project that is not only environmentally harmful but also unnecessary to meet New York’s energy needs," the DEC statement said.  ...

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Fair enough, every decision has consequences, I just hope the people of New York understand what they are getting into and are prepared for these consequences.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Hey New York State, good luck freezing your butts off in the coming winters.  Virtue Signaling Climate Panic absurdity.  Darwin Freezing Awards coming soon.

State rejects environmental permit for Williams Co. natural gas pipeline

New York State on Friday once again rejected an environmental permit for a contested natural gas pipeline to the region, delivering a potentially fatal blow to the $1.4 billion project sought by National Grid.

The state Department of Environmental Conservation in a statement Friday said construction of the 23.4-mile Northeast Supply Enhancement pipeline in state waters "would not meet New York State's rigorous water quality standards" and result in "significant water quality impacts …"

The decision marks the third time the project's environmental permit application has been rejected. 

Of primary concern to the state agency in rejecting the permit by developer Williams Co. for the pipeline to supply National Grid's downstate region were "re-suspension of sediments and other contaminants, including mercury and copper" that "would disturb sensitive habitats, including shellfish beds and other bottom-dwelling marine life …" 

New York is "not prepared to sacrifice the state’s water quality for a project that is not only environmentally harmful but also unnecessary to meet New York’s energy needs," the DEC statement said.  ...

 

I believe @Jan van Eck covered this issue in some detail.  Jan, could you give us a refresher, please?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

I believe @Jan van Eck covered this issue in some detail.  Jan, could you give us a refresher, please?

Over one hundred years ago, some very far-sighted politicians in New York built a number of gigantic acqueducts running from lakes in Upstate New York all the way down to the City, which consumes staggering amounts of water.   The land area around the lakes is all protected, nothing is touched out there. So you have tens of thousands of acres of land carefully left wild for the specific purpose of protecting the fresh-water source from any contamination.  If any of that water gets contaminated then the City and State will have to spend billions to go build water-treatment plants; right now, that lake water is pumped untreated and unfiltered into the City.  What has the people there all freaked out is that if some pipeline is built then the construction process would disturb the land and release in this case mud and sediments into the water areas where it would contaminate the pipeline water.  

That is only partly true.  All natural processes will release sediment.  It becomes a question of degree.  Careful constructioin techniques for a gas line would not release much.  The other reason there is no pipe construction is that the end users are in Boston.  New Yorkers are completely indifferent about the needs of Boston.  If Boston wants gas, then the pipe companies can go lay pipe up to Canada and along to Detroit, then connect to the Midwest at Sarnia, for all the New Yorkers care.  Or they can bring it in by LNG tanker.  Or they can go burn coal.  New York is not going to let anyone touch that forest watershed and risk their pristine lake water.  Not going to happen, and there is no force on the face of the planet that is going to accomplish that  (changing their minds!).  Cheers.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Fair enough, every decision has consequences, I just hope the people of New York understand what they are getting into and are prepared for these consequences.

There are no consequences, Douglas.  The gas is not needed for the City.  To the extent some of the gas would go to customers in Upstate Lakes Region, they can be supplied propane by truck.  The real reason is that the pipeline would transport gas to Boston.  New York does not care about Boston. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

5 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Hey New York State, good luck freezing your butts off in the coming winters.  Virtue Signaling Climate Panic absurdity.  Darwin Freezing Awards coming soon.

State rejects environmental permit for Williams Co. natural gas pipeline

New York State on Friday once again rejected an environmental permit for a contested natural gas pipeline to the region, delivering a potentially fatal blow to the $1.4 billion project sought by National Grid.

The state Department of Environmental Conservation in a statement Friday said construction of the 23.4-mile Northeast Supply Enhancement pipeline in state waters "would not meet New York State's rigorous water quality standards" and result in "significant water quality impacts …"

The decision marks the third time the project's environmental permit application has been rejected. 

Of primary concern to the state agency in rejecting the permit by developer Williams Co. for the pipeline to supply National Grid's downstate region were "re-suspension of sediments and other contaminants, including mercury and copper" that "would disturb sensitive habitats, including shellfish beds and other bottom-dwelling marine life …" 

New York is "not prepared to sacrifice the state’s water quality for a project that is not only environmentally harmful but also unnecessary to meet New York’s energy needs," the DEC statement said.  ...

 

That is fine. Just as Silicon Valley business is on a hyper exodus out of California, so is the Financial and high grade industry in their urgency to leave NY City and New York state. They will not need the gas, they won't have the people nor the income to buy it.

CV 19 taught managers how to manage a workforce working from home. Twitter is leaving its headquarters to become a virtual company. The financial business, though already somewhat diversified out of NYC, Has just begun its mass evacuation. And this round is not like its little move into Connecticut 30 odd years ago. Silicon Valley is with Elon Musk asking themselves, "why are we here"? And are now looking to "not in California". They can hire whomever they want in wherever they are. Same thing in NYC with the financial industry. If you can float an IPO without a physical dog and pony show, then why do you need to pay for NYC real estate. The typical silicon valley wage premium is over $40k, largely to cover real estate related living costs. It is worse in NYC.

It is too bad the 2020 census will not pick up the exodus.

 

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

Mr. van Eck

I would respectfully take exception to the accuracy of several of your observations.

Even a quick googling of natgas shortage for New York city should bring up umpteen stories relating to the looming shortfall of natty in the southern Westchester, Long Island (Nassau/Suffolk) and Brooklyn/Queens areas.

Showpiece developments such as the proposed NHL complex are threatened, along with the highly contentious moratoria on new hookups from both Con Ed and National Grid. (The fact that the ~350,000 tenants in New York's projects still rely primarily upon expensive  heating oil for their heat/hot water is beyond criminal as there is insufficient supply of natgas).

 

The 23 mile long NSE pipeline will use a dredge sled for almost the entire length. (About 2 miles under the Ambrose Channel will employ Horizontal Directional Drilling).

The amount of 'disturbed sediment' is such a preposterously miniscule amount that anyone even referring to it belies unfathomable ignorance in these matters.

For one single bit of context, the decade long upgrading/deepening of New York Harbor involved the displacement of 50 MILLION cubic yards of fill!!!

 

This truly insane display of obstructive behavior rivals several other examples of 'pipeline phobia' including the 97 mile long pipe from PA to Buffalo - the Northern Access Pipeline - which would supply western NY with abundant, cheap gas for decades.

These folks - along with their New England neighbors -  will reap the whirlwind during future cold snaps as the existing gas supply will clearly be insufficient to meet prolonged demand.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Coffeeguyzz

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

54 minutes ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Long Island (Nassau/Suffolk)

Long Island has long been a big problem politically in New York.  The reason you have this gas shortfall there is related to a large nuclear plant that was built on the North Shore some decades ago.  Just before the plant was "lit" the NIMBYs and the Greenies forced LILCO  (Long Island Power Co) to9 abandon the plant, not start it, and tear out the reactor.  The plant was then converted to run on natural gas.  Result: big shortage of gas on the Island.  See, these people create their own problems. 

There is also the construction of a large nat-gas electric power plant in the Yonkers area.  that lies just North of New York City, up along the 278, the road that runs from the I-95 over to the Tappan Zee Bridge.  That is pulling a vast amount of gas that would otherwise go to residential heating.  

the city itself has these steam pipes that run from oil-burner electric plants, those pipes are tapped into  by the adjacent apartment buildings for heating.  The pipes run for blocks around. 

Is there a "gas shortage" in the City?  To the extent that gas can replace oil, yes there is.  Is the injury self-inflicted?  Yes, it is.  Do I agree with the decision not to build more gas pipe?  No, I don't.  But hey, my vote doesn't count!

If you take away the power-generation component then there is no "looming gas shortage."

54 minutes ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

The amount of 'disturbed sediment' is such a preposterously miniscule amount that anyone even referring to it belies unfathomable ignorance in these matters.

All politics.  And politics has nothing to do with either reality or reasonableness, surely you grasp that. 

54 minutes ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Showpiece developments such as the proposed NHL complex are threatened,

Nobody in Albany cares about that.  You fail to recognize that policy is set in Albany, which is Republican from the Upstate Legislators, and the City is democrat, so you have this inherent conflict.  It is particularly dysfunctional in New York State. The Republican legistalture is not going to spend money on fixing New York City water-contamination problems, so the upstate reservoirs are not going to be disturbed. 

54 minutes ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

The 23 mile long NSE pipeline will use a dredge sled for almost the entire length. (About 2 miles under the Ambrose Channel will employ Horizontal Directional Drilling).

I made and make no comment about the engineering of the NSE.  I will point out that the Ambrose Channel is salt water, the issue of the DEC is different there, the idea is "contamination" by stirring up old sediments of heavy metals.  A bit silly, but hey, that's politics!

54 minutes ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

For one single bit of context, the decade long upgrading/deepening of New York Harbor involved the displacement of 50 MILLION cubic yards of fill!!!

And that is insufficient, to achieve a minimum 60 feet depth for the largest ships.  So New York remains shallower than Baltimore, its rival. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Jan van Eck
correct name of bridge to tappan Zee

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

P.S.  And I will add that in my view Long Island should be dismantled and converted back into potato farms.  People should not be living on Long Island.  there is insufficient groundwater on  Long Island to support that population.  LI is not connected to the upstate acqueducts, it pulls from wells.  As usual, the people require far more than nature can provide. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

The only reason they wanted to put the NG pipe through there is to save some cost due to right of way issues.  No physical reason one could not go around the watersheds.  They are not that large. 

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

Mr. van Eck

I actually worked on the Shoreham nuke plant towards the end of its construction phase.

Likewise, referencing the available ground water in Long Island, I worked extensively with the Babylon water treatment plant, a project which has caused unforseen problems as the previously used private septic systems no longer recharge the water tables.

Land subsidence is being attributed to 'sea level rise' there ... as well as elsewhere throughout the country.

 

The Cricket Valley CCGP just went online a few weeks back, coinciding with the shut down of Unit 2 at Indian Point.

I am not sure that your mentioning the watersheds of NYC has any direct bearing on this NESE pipe.

There was the usual howling when the Constitution was proposed, but anyone worried about gas pipes buried 4 foot deep when projects like Tunnel #3 are involved display, once again, a total disconnect from  realities on the ground.

 

Absent this current drama and the unforseen future ripple effects, I suggest if one spends even a few minutes reading of all the commercial projects on Long Island seriously jeopardized without natgas supply - particularly the massive residential/commercial hubs proposed along the LIRR - one will quickly recognize that the absence of an  economical energy supply is tantamount to a death knell for future development.

 

Carl Yaztremski may well have appreciated the potato farms on Long Island, but that's why they invented Boise.

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

10 hours ago, 0R0 said:

That is fine. Just as Silicon Valley business is on a hyper exodus out of California, so is the Financial and high grade industry in their urgency to leave NY City and New York state. They will not need the gas, they won't have the people nor the income to buy it.

CV 19 taught managers how to manage a workforce working from home. Twitter is leaving its headquarters to become a virtual company. The financial business, though already somewhat diversified out of NYC, Has just begun its mass evacuation. And this round is not like its little move into Connecticut 30 odd years ago. Silicon Valley is with Elon Musk asking themselves, "why are we here"? And are now looking to "not in California". They can hire whomever they want in wherever they are. Same thing in NYC with the financial industry. If you can float an IPO without a physical dog and pony show, then why do you need to pay for NYC real estate. The typical silicon valley wage premium is over $40k, largely to cover real estate related living costs. It is worse in NYC.

It is too bad the 2020 census will not pick up the exodus.

 

The same thing is happening in Chicagoland and all of Illinois. People are leaving due to high real estate and other taxes and a complete takeover by Governor Pritzker ( A multibillionaire who removed gold toilets from his mansion to avoid taxes). 

My two small cargo trailers were registered for  about $25 a year. This year $100 each! The smallest one only cost about  $750! Vehicle registration is now from $50 to $150 a year. I realize that sounds cheap to some though. 

Pritzker is trying to treat all of Illinois like Chicago. I would not be surprised if Trump won Illinois, but I realize I am a bit delusional most likely. The Demoncrats have bought off almost all of the government employees through high salaries and benefit. Now they are hoping that Trump will bail them out. No chance though. Illinois is going broke as people flee. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/us-states-that-lost-population-in-2019

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

17 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

I am not sure that your mentioning the watersheds of NYC has any direct bearing on this NESE pipe

It may not.  I was asked to comment specifically on the issue of the City watershed, so that is what I focused on.  There have been various proposals to run fresh pipe across the watershed, with the intent to pipe gas to Boston, and those have been opposed by Albany. 

17 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Absent this current drama and the unforseen future ripple effects, I suggest if one spends even a few minutes reading of all the commercial projects on Long Island seriously jeopardized without natgas supply - particularly the massive residential/commercial hubs proposed along the LIRR - one will quickly recognize that the absence of an  economical energy supply is tantamount to a death knell for future development.

Nobody caes about Long Island any more.  The place is on the obnoxious side.  If they want nat-gas, there is nothing to stop LNG from being brought in, there is a deepwater unloading pier in Long Island Sound already built, been there for several decades, I think to unload heating oil and possibly bunker oil for power generation.  But the issue remains one of fresh water, which is scarce on LI.  Any new development will make the current supplies even more precarious, unless new piped water is brought in as a branch of the acqueducts.  I don't see that happening, that is water intended specifically for the City, and I rather doubt the City is going to share any. 

17 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Carl Yaztremski may well have appreciated the potato farms on Long Island, but that's why they invented Boise.

That is actually funny! 😛   But do remember that historically most of LI was farming, and the bulk of that was in potatos, especially in Suffolk County  (the Eastern end).  Hauling potatos from Idaho, some 2,500 miles to the West, is not exactly "green," given the desire for local food production!   Anyway, I suppose LI can get potatos from Maine..... 

B ut seriously, once again the logical use of that sandy, low-water-supply land is in low-impact farming.  Converting it into sprawl for the masses from New York is a non-optimal use.  New York has far too many people living there, the place is turning into another Bombay.  Or Calcutta.  Too many people. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jan van Eck

[ronwagn + 6,290]

13 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

It may not.  I was asked to comment specifically on the issue of the City watershed, so that is what I focused on.  There have been various proposals to run fresh pipe across the watershed, with the intent to pipe gas to Boston, and those have been opposed by Albany. 

Nobody caes about Long Island any more.  The place is on the obnoxious side.  If they want nat-gas, there is nothing to stop LNG from being brought in, there is a deepwater unloading pier in Long Island Sound already built, been there for several decades, I think to unload heating oil and possibly bunker oil for power generation.  But the issue remains one of fresh water, which is scarce on LI.  Any new development will make the current supplies even more precarious, unless new piped water is brought in as a branch of the acqueducts.  I don't see that happening, that is water intended specifically for the City, and I rather doubt the City is going to share any. 

That is actually funny! 😛   But do remember that historically most of LI was farming, and the bulk of that was in potatos, especially in Suffolk County  (the Eastern end).  Hauling potatos from Idaho, some 2,500 miles to the West, is not exactly "green," given the desire for local food production!   Anyway, I suppose LI can get potatos from Maine..... 

B ut seriously, once again the logical use of that sandy, low-water-supply land is in low-impact farming.  Converting it into sprawl for the masses from New York is a non-optimal use.  New York has far too many people living there, the place is turning into another Bombay.  Or Calcutta.  Too many people. 

At current natural gas prices it should be affordable to desalinate all the water needed for residential use. Industrial, I don't know. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

On 5/16/2020 at 9:53 AM, 0R0 said:

That is fine. Just as Silicon Valley business is on a hyper exodus out of California, so is the Financial and high grade industry in their urgency to leave NY City and New York state. They will not need the gas, they won't have the people nor the income to buy it.

CV 19 taught managers how to manage a workforce working from home. Twitter is leaving its headquarters to become a virtual company. The financial business, though already somewhat diversified out of NYC, Has just begun its mass evacuation. And this round is not like its little move into Connecticut 30 odd years ago. Silicon Valley is with Elon Musk asking themselves, "why are we here"? And are now looking to "not in California". They can hire whomever they want in wherever they are. Same thing in NYC with the financial industry. If you can float an IPO without a physical dog and pony show, then why do you need to pay for NYC real estate. The typical silicon valley wage premium is over $40k, largely to cover real estate related living costs. It is worse in NYC.

It is too bad the 2020 census will not pick up the exodus.

 

What states do you think all the coastal liberals will move to?

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

What states do you think all the coastal liberals will move to?

Flyover states that have less state taxes.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Flyover states that have less state taxes.

Won't be just any fly over state. It will be the ones with wilderness like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. You know, low population red states. I wonder how long before they flip to blue?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Won't be just any fly over state. It will be the ones with wilderness like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. You know, low population red states. I wonder how long before they flip to blue?

Now that's just not nice.  Ha-ha!