DEFIANCE – There are More of Us Than Them

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

5 minutes ago, M_Ali said:

Tom FYI:

The Polish Solidarity Movement had a strong and determined leader, Lech Walesa with a clear mandate from his support base.

US lock-down scattered protest movement across America imposed by covid19 Plandemic has neither. 

Thanks for your viewpoints.

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Well, when it comes to the martial law in Poland, opinions about this historic even have been incredibly divided in Poland for many years. Although the introduction of martial law for 30 years has been strongly condemned in the press and television, some 40% of Poles still believe that this was the right decision and allowed to avoid Soviet intervention in the style of Hungary 1956 or Czechoslovakia 1968.

My parents as well as quite a few of their friends at the age of 60 or older  rather approach the decision to introduce it with a significant degree of understanding, because you cannot radically change the geopolitical situation overnight in one of the most important strategic points on the map of Europe.

Anyway, martial law in Poland was rather not really bloody - in reality during 2 years no more than a few dozen people were killed.

In the May coup in 1926, over 500 people were killed, and its creator, future dictator Józef Piłsudski, the creator of the reborn Polish state is a national hero for many Poles.

In addition, do not exaggerate in this respect that to this day the Polish state is called the theoretical state because law enforcement and effectiveness of the state is at a low level in our country. I would prefer to live in a more effective country that fights and put on trial all the scandals and scams, which is rather problem in Poland.

 

I mean that in a country that historically was really not opressive towards the citizen, collected very low taxes and gave the nobility golden freedom even martial law would not be a big nightmare.

I would only add that in my opinion, traditional Polish Russophobia comes from a very sad historical conclusion that we had golden freedom and anarchy for some time, and they have despotism in Russia. Perhaps golden freedom is theoretically better only the first Republic of Poland had at once over 1 million kilometers and Russia started from Gand Duchy containing  Moscow and the surrounding area. Poland beat Russia until the mid-seventeenth century, and then despotism proved simply more effective than anarchy, and the Polish empire collapsed. As one Russian historian in Russia said, in Russia tsar decided and in Poland  inefficient seyms so it ended up as it ended.

It is hard for me to refer to the USA because although once I even read the one-volume history of the USA as a very powerful country, it ended somewhere during the Vietnam War. It was very good book despite being written in soviet Poland but its 40 years old.

I also know quite a little about today's USA because I really read a lot of articles and books but I have never been there and some issues such as for example private fire brigades or private prisons they are difficult for me to understand from European continental perspective , so it's hard to say how it really works in America.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Tomasz

[ralfy + 55]

Also, it's involving more than just restaurants but breakdowns in global supply chains.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

“The Polish Solidarity Movement had a strong and determined leader, Lech Walesa with a clear mandate from his support base.

US lock-down scattered protest movement across America imposed by covid19 Plandemic has neither. “

BULLSHIT! Where did you get the idea that the protests were either scattered or unsupported?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

On 5/19/2020 at 1:51 PM, Dan Warnick said:

An excellent chart that shows, without a doubt, that the restaurant owners and their patrons did NOT NEED the government to tell them to do what they were already doing.  Duh!  And, as has been already stated by another commenter, they would also have found ways to make it safe for their VALUED customers in order to get the business back when it was deemed safe.  How would they know?  By listening to the experts, NOT the government.  The government's job, in our society and system, is to advise, to make recommendations.  Example: in a Tornado Watch or even a Tornado Warning scenario, or a Hurricane Alert/Warning, the government can STRONGLY advise to take shelter, to evacuate even, but they cannot force a resident to do any of the above.  If a man wants to get sucked up into a twister, that's his right, foolish as it may seem to others.

Edit:  I've just got to come back to this excellent chart.  So, the government ordered restaurants closed, that were already closed.  If that was me doing my job, I think I'd just keep my mouth shut and hope nobody noticed I'd missed it!

To my earlier point about getting sucked up in a twister.  Here is "stay at home or you'll be arrested" Michigan Governor Whitmer "warning", "Urging residents to evacuate and warning that could be under 9 feet of water by Wednesday", telling residents it is "important" to evacuate or go to safer areas.  She is doing her job by organizing and opening shelters for residents to go if they need or choose to do so.  This is a Governor who apparently has remembered what her powers are and is effectively carrying them out, without removing anyone's rights in the process.  One can assume that the residents will also be able to listen to good advice about when the threat may be over and to make their own decisions about whether or not they return home, and when.

The catastrophe in this case is the breaching/failure of 2 dams. 

'Do not hesitate': Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer urges evacuations, warns Midland could be under 9 feet of water by Wednesday

Urging residents to evacuate and warning that downtown Midland could be under 9 feet of water by Wednesday afternoon, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer declared a state of emergency for Midland County after the Edenville and Sanford dams breached.

Speaking during a press conference late Tuesday, Whitmer said parts of the city of Midland, the village of Sanford, Edenville Township and Dow Chemical had been or were being evacuated. She said officials were working to evacuate residents in Tittabawassee, Thomas and Saginaw townships.

Parts of Midland Township, Lincoln Township and Homer Township had also been evacuated, according to alerts on Midland County's emergency management system, with tens of thousands of people potentially affected by flooding along the Tittabawassee River with a flood warning in effect through Wednesday morning.

"This is unlike anything we’ve seen before... but this is truly a historic event that's playing out in the midst of another historic event," Whitmer said, referring to the coronavirus pandemic which has led to stay-at-home orders throughout the state and the deaths of more than 5,000 people.

She said that despite those orders generally telling people to stay home, it was important that anyone living in the affected areas evacuate as quickly as possible to safer areas, or go to the homes of relatives and friends. Three shelters had opened in Midland County, as well.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

6 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

To my earlier point about getting sucked up in a twister.  Here is "stay at home or you'll be arrested" Michigan Governor Whitmer "warning", "Urging residents to evacuate and warning that could be under 9 feet of water by Wednesday", telling residents it is "important" to evacuate or go to safer areas.  She is doing her job by organizing and opening shelters for residents to go if they need or choose to do so.  This is a Governor who apparently has remembered what her powers are and is effectively carrying them out, without removing anyone's rights in the process.  One can assume that the residents will also be able to listen to good advice about when the threat may be over and to make their own decisions about whether or not they return home, and when.

The catastrophe in this case is the breaching/failure of 2 dams. 

A river runs through part of the property here (in Michigan).  Midland is not that far from here, less than 50 miles away.

Later this morning I'll walk back to the river and take a look at the flood levels.  It's about a mile away.

Next week I was planning to go camping by the river for a few days, but I will probably have to wait for the swampland next to the river to dry up a bit.  We planted 20,000 pine trees in the swampland there long ago, as part of the flood mitigation efforts, and for environmental reasons.  Lots of deer and rabbits and other wildlife happily inhabit that area now.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

A river runs through part of the property here (in Michigan).  Midland is not that far from here, less than 50 miles away.

Later this morning I'll walk back to the river and take a look at the flood levels.  It's about a mile away.

Next week I was planning to go camping by the river for a few days, but I will probably have to wait for the swampland next to the river to dry up a bit.  We planted 20,000 pine trees in the swampland there long ago, as part of the flood mitigation efforts, and for environmental reasons.  Lots of deer and rabbits and other wildlife happily inhabit that area now.

Be careful.  You know how those flood waters can fool you into a false sense of security.

[canadas canadas + 136]

The majority of people are being subjected and exposed to both economic and health risks that are harming them. 

[Marcin2 + 726]

14 hours ago, Tomasz said:

1.Well, when it comes to the martial law in Poland, opinions about this historic even have been incredibly divided in Poland for many years. Although the introduction of martial law for 30 years has been strongly condemned in the press and television, some 40% of Poles still believe that this was the right decision and allowed to avoid Soviet intervention in the style of Hungary 1956 or Czechoslovakia 1968.

My parents as well as quite a few of their friends at the age of 60 or older  rather approach the decision to introduce it with a significant degree of understanding, because you cannot radically change the geopolitical situation overnight in one of the most important strategic points on the map of Europe.

Anyway, martial law in Poland was rather not really bloody - in reality during 2 years no more than a few dozen people were killed.

In the May coup in 1926, over 500 people were killed, and its creator, future dictator Józef Piłsudski, the creator of the reborn Polish state is a national hero for many Poles.1.

In addition, do not exaggerate in this respect that to this day the Polish state is called the theoretical state because law enforcement and effectiveness of the state is at a low level in our country. I would prefer to live in a more effective country that fights and put on trial all the scandals and scams, which is rather problem in Poland.

 

I mean that in a country that historically was really not opressive towards the citizen, collected very low taxes and gave the nobility golden freedom even martial law would not be a big nightmare.

I would only add that in my opinion, traditional Polish Russophobia comes from a very sad historical conclusion that we had golden freedom and anarchy for some time, and they have despotism in Russia. Perhaps golden freedom is theoretically better only the first Republic of Poland had at once over 1 million kilometers and Russia started from Gand Duchy containing  Moscow and the surrounding area. Poland beat Russia until the mid-seventeenth century, and then despotism proved simply more effective than anarchy, and the Polish empire collapsed. As one Russian historian in Russia said, in Russia tsar decided and in Poland  inefficient seyms so it ended up as it ended.

It is hard for me to refer to the USA because although once I even read the one-volume history of the USA as a very powerful country, it ended somewhere during the Vietnam War. It was very good book despite being written in soviet Poland but its 40 years old.

I also know quite a little about today's USA because I really read a lot of articles and books but I have never been there and some issues such as for example private fire brigades or private prisons they are difficult for me to understand from European continental perspective , so it's hard to say how it really works in America.

1.About Martial Law I agree, introduction of martial law in 1981, the opinions are diversified.

Soviet Union was much weaker in 1981 than in 1956 or 1968, but never the less it had enough military power to intevene in Poland, intervention was likely, very probable. And remember that Poles are not Czechs or Hungarians. We are taught from the early childhood, it dominates Polish education curricula for 150 years, that you need to fight and kill any invaders, no matter the cost, no matter how many Poles would die. I think it is stupid, but it is the sad fact.

So potential Soviet invasion would mean real war. And nobody would help Poland in this war.

On the other hand this move was to defend status quo, dictatorship.1. I am 70% that it was more positive than negative.

 

2. Very important general remark: geopolitical, political, societal changes need time to happen. They should not be too fast, cause they would be out of control.

In Poland communist propaganda was never something that was in the hearts of people. 90% of people were devout Catholics. So the social fabric was kept relatively intact.

To give you (I mean non Poles) the understanding how processes in Poland were developing in a very short summary:

Democratic changes started to be much faster since 1978:

October 1978 Polish Pope is elected,

June 1979 Polish Pope visits Poland: 10 million people ! meet him in person, the largest such gathering in the history of Poland, 30% of population !

1980-1981 Solidarity is registered, Solidarity becomes the real power, government discusses with Solidarity like with equal official power.

From this point democratic processes could not be stopped, but they were too fast, could cause intervention of Soviet Union, cause Warsaw Treaty without Poland was not possible.

December 1981 martial law is imposed,

1983 martial law is nullified

1983 Polish Pope visits Poland again.

November 1987 Referendum in Poland, about the future of the country. There was question about democratization. Never the less 1/3 of Poles declined the legitimacy of communists to continue to govern. Results were published.

The results were published, first time in communist world there was information that 1/3 of people were negative about the communist dictatorship.

August 1988 authorities start informal discussions with opposition

from February 1989 official discussions between commnuist dictatorship and opposition about future of Poland.

June 1989 first partly free parliamentary elections

September 1989 first prime minister and opposition govenment

So democratization was a gradual process of many, many small steps. And apart about 100 martial law casualties this was mainly bloodless process.

Some say that martial law was needed as part of this process. I do not know.

 

 

 

[Marcin2 + 726]

Tom , keep proportion. This is just another peaceful protest for the people to keep their jobs, and use beaches, go outdoors, in times of epidemic. Democracy is not at stake. It is just that frustrated people want to keep their lifestyle. I understand this pefectly , I am also frustrated by this situation.

I live in Warsaw, and the city is often totally jammed by the protests, there are at least 1-2 of them each week. They close a lot of streets, especially vulnerable is district were President and Parliament, Government seat  are located. Warsaw dwellers hate protests, we understand that they are part of democracy, but they make our life difficult.

There is often riot police, just to protect the protesters, and sometimes public property. They only react when outsiders/troublemakers try to interfere with protests or when protesters really destroy property. But they need to try to  put on fire Russian embassy (this was a few years ago) or try to invade Prime Minister offices (favourite target0   for the riot police to react.

Usual peaceful burning of hundreds of  tires (miners like this show), unloading agrarian products or horse manure (this is farmers specialty) or throwing eggs is perfectly normal.

[M_Ali + 32]

11 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

“The Polish Solidarity Movement had a strong and determined leader, Lech Walesa with a clear mandate from his support base.

US lock-down scattered protest movement across America imposed by covid19 Plandemic has neither. “

BULLSHIT! Where did you get the idea that the protests were either scattered or unsupported?

You can't refute a series of arguments put forward baked by facts simply by using the word "BULLSHIT" without presenting facts to the contrary, or argue rationally against what has been presented substantiating your argument with such unless your argument is BULLSHIT and not the first time either. You may use such arguments in a bar over a beer with your drinking pals but you'd make a crappy Attorney in the court of law or a bigoted commentator in a professional forum. 

You may like to know that your argumentative and abusive language exceeds by far the depth of your political and historical knowledge. Why is there a compulsive tendency on your part to repetitively display this talent!? I don't know and don't care.  

But this professional forum is not a school yard for demonstrating childish bluish behavior. 

[Marcin2 + 726]

6 hours ago, M_Ali said:

You can't refute a series of arguments put forward baked by facts simply by using the word "BULLSHIT" without presenting facts to the contrary, or argue rationally against what has been presented substantiating your argument with such unless your argument is BULLSHIT and not the first time either. You may use such arguments in a bar over a beer with your drinking pals but you'd make a crappy Attorney in the court of law or a bigoted commentator in a professional forum. 

You may like to know that your argumentative and abusive language exceeds by far the depth of your political and historical knowledge. Why is there a compulsive tendency on your part to repetitively display this talent!? I don't know and don't care.  

But this professional forum is not a school yard for demonstrating childish bluish behavior. 

You are wrong. Douglas is just exceptional: he is American and what more he believes in anything that Trump says.

This a lot more than just arguments.

I found the power of his wisdom disguised by the word:"BULLSHIT" in all discussions outside of oil industry area (in oil related issues he is a real expert).

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Bullshit again!😂

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

12 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Tom , keep proportion. This is just another peaceful protest for the people to keep their jobs, and use beaches, go outdoors, in times of epidemic. Democracy is not at stake. It is just that frustrated people want to keep their lifestyle. I understand this pefectly , I am also frustrated by this situation.

I live in Warsaw, and the city is often totally jammed by the protests, there are at least 1-2 of them each week. They close a lot of streets, especially vulnerable is district were President and Parliament, Government seat  are located. Warsaw dwellers hate protests, we understand that they are part of democracy, but they make our life difficult.

There is often riot police, just to protect the protesters, and sometimes public property. They only react when outsiders/troublemakers try to interfere with protests or when protesters really destroy property. But they need to try to  put on fire Russian embassy (this was a few years ago) or try to invade Prime Minister offices (favourite target0   for the riot police to react.

Usual peaceful burning of hundreds of  tires (miners like this show), unloading agrarian products or horse manure (this is farmers specialty) or throwing eggs is perfectly normal.

Actually things are worse than the picture shows....the socialist/progressive movement is left unchecked and the average american is met with full riot gear and there police are ready to go.Below is a video of the anarchy and yes the police were there and did nothing not one dam thing. Our country is being torn by cheap politics and it will get much worse as time goes on.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

@M_Ali

“BULLSHIT! Where did you get the idea that the protests were either scattered or unsupported?“

 

As usual, you use eloquent verbiage while totally avoiding the question, which is...bullshit. If you want to be taken seriously, try answering a question before demanding that everyone bow to your questionable logic or intellect.

 

@Marcin2

5 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

12 hours ago, M_Ali said:

 

You are wrong. Douglas is just exceptional: he is American and what more he believes in anything that Trump says.

This is also bullshit as you assume that all Americans believe what Trump says. This is not only childish, it is untrue as you know.

You two squirreldicks should get jobs with Newsweek....

 

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

26 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Bullshit again!😂

Naughty, naughty boy!

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

TED NUGENT WARNS CITIZENS ABOUT THE THING THAT MIGHT DESTROY AMERICA

 

The legendary rock music veteran Ted Nugent penned a really long letter on his official Facebook page to show off how his patience is run out because of the coronavirus outbreak and staying home.

As Ted Nugent stated that he’s really sick of social distancing, he also stated that the fear of the public is destroying America and he refuses to wear a mask because of someone else’s fear.

Here is that long letter of Ted:

“Why do I have to stay home just because 𝘆𝗼𝘂 are scared? How about 𝘆𝗼𝘂 stay home…. 𝗼𝘂 stay in 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 house indefinitely, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 wear a mask, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 socially distance yourself from me, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 avoid restaurants, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 avoid baseball games, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 stay off the roads, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 avoid malls and beaches and parks, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 believe the made-up death numbers, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 believe the media hype, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 Get your toxic vaccine while avoiding vitamin C, sunshine and the things God gave us to actually heal.

I’m done playing 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 dumb game. We are not “all in this together.” I’m not wearing 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 dumb tin foil hat anymore. I’m no longer going to be a prisoner of your fear. I’m no longer staying in my house or catering to 𝘆𝗼𝘂 because 𝘆𝗼𝘂 are scared. I’m not wearing a mask and I’m not staying 6 feet away from you anymore because I’m not afraid of you. You are not my enemy and if I get sick, it’s not because of 𝘆𝗼𝘂, it’s because of me and my system, which not only have I been addressing for quite some time, but I also know how to treat if I get sick.”

He continued and stated that he won’t pay any respect to the people who keep their fear uncontained. He thinks that’s the main reason for the crisis.

Here is the rest of the statement:

“This virus (or whatever it is) is already circulating. Millions of people have already encountered it, as it’s been circulating around the world probably since last September. You WILL have to confront this thing, if you haven’t already. There is no way around it, unless you lock yourself up in your house and it somehow doesn’t manage to hop on some mail or some groceries that you ordered online.

𝗬𝗢𝗨𝗥 fear is not an excuse to destroy America. 𝗬𝗢𝗨𝗥 fear is not my fear and your fear does not have the right to interfere with my life, my job, my income or my future as a free American citizen. So if you’re scared, you can just put your tin foil hat on, or even wrap foil all around your whole body – or around your whole house if you wish – but please keep your fear contained to your little corner of the world and don’t contaminate me or my family or my Country. I copied & pasted this from Grey Havens’ page it’s perfect.”  ...

 

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Let me point out a small difference. In Poland and in a lot other european states, the population has virtually no firearms.

A policeman can be really spat on, insulted, torn, maybe even beaten. But he would have to be statistically very unlucky to be treated with a knife, not to mention a firearm.

I have never been to the USA, but it seems to me that the reality is completely different, which requires different police behavior, because no one wants to die on duty during the intervention and this happens quite often in the USA.

 

Therefore, fighting demonstrations looks different. We throw stones, paving slabs and flares at the police. I have never heard of anyone using a weapon during public demostations.

Maybe only if  we are talking about stadium hooligans for good, then axes and machetes can enter the game in a few cities, so the police immediately shoot contract bullets.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tomasz

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

“I have never been to the USA, but it seems to me that the reality is completely different, which requires different police behavior, because no one wants to die on duty during the intervention and this happens quite often in the USA.”

Let’s see some supporting documentation here. How many American law enforcement officers have been threatened, spit on or killed during this intervention?

[Tomasz + 1,608]

 

I mean that if a policeman were killed during an intervention in Poland, there would be 5 minutes  news in the main issue of television news.

We simply have  in many european countries very few weapons.

Of course serious criminals has Kalashnikovs so there is a SWAT team.  

But if a policeman goes to interventions because a drunk husband beat his wife, a drunkard will brawl, shouting and yanking at policeman. But even drunk he won't  dare to pull the knife out unless the policeman is very unlucky.

At one time, youtube videos were popular about what a typical US police intervention looks like. I can't judge this policemen  if people in the US have weapons

And these are not  really my thoughts because the intervening policemen have mentioned several times that, for example, in Texas, it is not a clumsy thing that people walk with serious weapons.

Probably, contrary to appearances, this often alleviates the situation but from the point of view of a European resident these are completely different realities.

 I dont know how to explain it. In Poland we have nearly 40 milion people and something like 400-500 murders per year if I remember  it well as a lawyer. If policemen dies on duty its really a big thing

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tomasz

[frankfurter + 562]

On 5/19/2020 at 12:46 PM, Douglas Buckland said:

@0R0
 

“Typical characteristic of the Democrat authoritarian. They are control freaks who justify their authority with an unsubstantiated if not utterly fake moral stance as "doing the right thing". They need to feel total control of people around them, and the people of their public or jurisdiction in order to feel safe.”

The caveat to this is that many people are just sheep anymore and WANT to be led around by the nose. They simply do not want to, or are incapable of, making a decision.

I miss the days of my youth when ANY decision by ANYONE in authority was immediately questioned, then debated, before acceptance.

(Well, except for my grandfather who was a deputy sheriff in Summers County, West Virginia....you questioned him at your peril!😂)

uh, not many, but the great majority.  and the result is by design. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

16 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Let’s see some supporting documentation here. How many American law enforcement officers have been threatened, spit on or killed during this intervention?

Zero.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 5/19/2020 at 12:54 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

So as I child I often watched the twilight zone. It made a lasting impression on me let's say.

In memory of that show and a tribute to this thread...I give you Biden'sVP pick..Stacy Abrams the below is a actual pic from a photo shoot. Joan of Arch reincarnation...well several reincarnations or more

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

36 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

That's a lot of woman Joe...don't start something you cannot finish..think deeply on that. There are far more ramifications on that subject..

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

On 5/19/2020 at 11:54 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

So as I child I often watched the twilight zone. It made a lasting impression on me let's say.

In memory of that show and a tribute to this thread...I give you Biden'sVP pick..Stacy Abrams the below is a actual pic from a photo shoot. Joan of Arch reincarnation...well several reincarnations or more

Back to the OP, it's a good thing there are more of us....