Rioting and Protesting

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

12 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You really can’t be this ignorant...can you?

Sure he can.  

[SUZNV + 1,197]

I think the problem USA is facing is not from the historical slavery, but from the overwhelm of freedom and indvidualism. In other country like China or many classes like India, it should not be an issue.

Tocqueville effect

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The Tocqueville effect (also known as the Tocqueville paradox)[1] is the phenomenon in which as social conditions and opportunities improve, social frustration grows more quickly.[2][3] The effect is based on Alexis de Tocqueville's observations on the French Revolution and later reforms in Europe and the United States. Another way to describe the effect is the aphorism "the appetite grows by what it feeds on".[4] For instance, after greater social justice is achieved, there may be more fervent opposition to even smaller social injustices than before.

The effect suggests a link between social equality or concessions by the regime and unintended consequences, as social reforms can raise expectations that can't be matched.[5] According to the Tocqueville effect, a revolution is likely to occur after an improvement in social conditions in contrast to Marx's theory of progressive immiseration of the proletariat (deterioration of conditions).[6]

Relatedly, political scientist James Chowning Davies has proposed a J curve of revolutions which contends that periods of wealth and advancement are followed by periods of worsening conditions, leading to a revolution. Ted Robert Gurr also used the term relative deprivation to put forth that revolutions happen when there is an expectation of improvement, and a harsh reality in contrast.[7]

There is an increased chance of the Tocqueville paradox happening in centrally planned but locally implemented reforms, when local implementation falls short of the higher reference point.[7]

 

One great books from a European perspective about US colonies.

http://seas3.elte.hu/coursematerial/LojkoMiklos/Alexis-de-Tocqueville-Democracy-in-America.pdf

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by SUZNV

[El Nikko + 2,145]

2 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

I think the problem USA is facing is not from the historical slavery, but from the overwhelm of freedom and indvidualism

Tocqueville effect

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to navigationJump to search

The Tocqueville effect (also known as the Tocqueville paradox)[1] is the phenomenon in which as social conditions and opportunities improve, social frustration grows more quickly.[2][3] The effect is based on Alexis de Tocqueville's observations on the French Revolution and later reforms in Europe and the United States. Another way to describe the effect is the aphorism "the appetite grows by what it feeds on".[4] For instance, after greater social justice is achieved, there may be more fervent opposition to even smaller social injustices than before.

The effect suggests a link between social equality or concessions by the regime and unintended consequences, as social reforms can raise expectations that can't be matched.[5] According to the Tocqueville effect, a revolution is likely to occur after an improvement in social conditions in contrast to Marx's theory of progressive immiseration of the proletariat (deterioration of conditions).[6]

Relatedly, political scientist James Chowning Davies has proposed a J curve of revolutions which contends that periods of wealth and advancement are followed by periods of worsening conditions, leading to a revolution. Ted Robert Gurr also used the term relative deprivation to put forth that revolutions happen when there is an expectation of improvement, and a harsh reality in contrast.[7]

There is an increased chance of the Tocqueville paradox happening in centrally planned but locally implemented reforms, when local implementation falls short of the higher reference point.[7]

 

One great books from a European perspective about US colonies.

http://seas3.elte.hu/coursematerial/LojkoMiklos/Alexis-de-Tocqueville-Democracy-in-America.pdf

 

The problem is that "birds of a feather flock together"

When things get nasty people will form groups based on their similarities....sad but true

[El Gato + 254]

20 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

What you are describing generally is known as "corruption by blood."  [Sometimes: "corruption of blood."]   This is expressed in USA law as a Bill of Attainder, which is expressly forbidden in the US Constitution.  You will find the clause forbidding the practice in Article One, Section nine, paragraph three:    "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."

The Bill of Attainder prohibition clause ws inserted as a response to and reaction to our good friend King George [III] and his practice of invoking it against his political adverseraries in the Colonies.  He would declare anyone who disagreed with him an "Enemy of the State" and place a Bill against him.  Then the Estate, all the relatives, and the assets of the relatives and descendants would  be confiscated to the CVrown.  And whatever any descendant earned would also be confiscated to the Crown.  In effect, the bloodline was condemned to perpetual poverty - forever.   So, the colonists responded to all that (and a lot more) by taking up a call to arms.  

And for good measure, they abolished the titles of Lord, and King, and Sir, and all the rest. Article I, Section Nine, Clause 8:

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

This is known as the "Emoluments Clause," and is what various attempts to go hang Donald Trump and the Russians are all about.   Herewith endeth the Lesson. 

So correct me if I am wrong, then the slave reparations that certain people want cannot happen without a Constitutional Amendment or removal of an amendment?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

5 minutes ago, El Gato said:

So correct me if I am wrong, then the slave reparations that certain people want cannot happen without a Constitutional Amendment or removal of an amendment?

This is America.  The USA is a society where everything is possible.  The USA is not bounded by old traditions, such as say Belguim, nor by royal protocol, as say Britain, it is only bound by the imagination of the People.  The collective People can (and will) do as they collectively decide - and that includes tossing the Clintonites to the curb.  

If the Americans decide they want to create some reparations structure, then they will.  That is how it works in the USA.  It is up to the People. All rights are reserved to the People.   Foreigners do not grasp that. 

What the US Constitution does is make limits on federal power, and reserves rights not specifically enumerated as reserved to the States, or to the People.

There is no legal basis, currently, for "Reparations" to be made against individuals, and forcibly extracted by Government from specified, named individuals.   That does not restrict The People from deciding that they collectively want to do "Reparations."  Will they?  Hard to tell, but I rather doubt it.  In America, you are not held responsible for the things your parents or grand-parents did; that liability dies with them. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

12 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Well then ... Reverse Rioting ploy ...

Conservatives fanning the flames...  You probably like this because the Americans you dislike may have been manipulated with deception to hurt each other.

Which mastermind is causing the US to tear itself apart? 

"The US has the most powerful military in the world. We can't attack that."

"Fine, just get them to kill each other."

 

Divide and conquer... and you have a nation divided.  Your beloved leader is the catalyst accelerating the division.

Buy a gun, shoot your deplorable neighbours.  God bless half of America.

 

P.S. vandalizing cars is not a "practical joke."  Yes defacing a car is vandalism. 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Enthalpic

[El Gato + 254]

4 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Which mastermind is causing the US to tear itself apart? 

"The US has the most powerful military in the world. We can't attack that."

"Fine, just get them to kill each other."

 

Divide and conquer...

 

You actually hit the nail on the head for once. There is a co-ordinated effort behind ANTIFA, the looters and the rioters. Who would pre-postion pallets of Bricks and Bats in different cities?

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/evidence-of-provocateurs-in-dallas-protests/2380324/

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/report-piles-of-bricks-are-being-staged-in-cities-around-the-country-indicating-riots-are-planned/

https://www.newsbreak.com/tennessee/white-house/news/0PEMz7g1/breaking-us-park-police-find-baseball-bats-poles-hidden-along-street-near-white-house-reports-of-pipe-bombs

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

5 minutes ago, El Gato said:

You actually hit the nail on the head for once. There is a co-ordinated effort behind ANTIFA, the looters and the rioters. Who would pre-postion pallets of Bricks and Bats in different cities?

I still think this is a "made in America" problem.  If those bricks were planted it was almost certainly done by other Americans.

History repeats itself - none of this is "new world order"

KKK, civil war, Watts riots, LA riots, Detroit riots - throw in some witch burning for good measure...

 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

47 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

The problem is that "birds of a feather flock together"

When things get nasty people will form groups based on their similarities....sad but true

Which similarities should we form groups will define our values.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

10 hours ago, Hotone said:

Well, Shame on you!  The inequalities are staggering!  And all you do, is to patronise and lecture them to work harder!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/black-white-us-financial-inequality/index.html

You are Malaysian...correct?

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

5 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Conservatives fanning the flames...  You probably like this because the Americans you dislike may have been manipulated with deception to hurt each other.

Which mastermind is causing the US to tear itself apart? 

"The US has the most powerful military in the world. We can't attack that."

"Fine, just get them to kill each other."

 

Divide and conquer... and you have a nation divided.  Your beloved leader is the catalyst accelerating the division.

Buy a gun, shoot your deplorable neighbours.  God bless half of America.

P.S. vandalizing cars is not a "practical joke."  Yes defacing a car is vandalism. 

You're equating placing a bumper sticker on a car with vandalism? What do you call the real vandalism of slashing tires and breaking windows? Kids having fun? 

This civil disorder has been going on since before Trump got elected. I have a friend and Trump supporter who went to a Trump rally in Los Angeles. He pulled into a parking space next to a large contingent of police. They looked at his AMG Mercedes and said point blank, you'd better leave. He rightly said, "Why should I, you're right here?". They then left telling him, mayor's orders. That car would have been an irresistible lure to the malcontents there to harass the Trump supporters. Naturally he left, along with many others in the same area. Their political rights were being hijacked by a demoncrat mayor putting party ahead of…everything. 

That mayor is doing the same thing today. These blue state incompetents letting their own cities burn are just doing it to force Trump's hand, to get him to call in the army to restore order so they can scream "dictator" for him trying to clean up their mess. This is 100% political and 100% evil. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

54 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

You're equating placing a bumper sticker on a car with vandalism? What do you call the real vandalism of slashing tires and breaking windows?

An unwanted sticker is essentially the same as spray paint.

I would call that Destruction of property or whatever the name of your law is.

Defacing versus destruction; both are crimes, one is more severe.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

That mayor is doing the same thing today. These blue state incompetents letting their own cities burn are just doing it to force Trump's hand, to get him to call in the army to restore order so they can scream "dictator" for him trying to clean up their mess. This is 100% political and 100% evil. 

I doubt that but let's say you are right.  Trump has to have the strength to not take the "dictator bait." 

If he overreacts everyone loses....

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

9 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I doubt that but let's say you are right.  Trump has to have the strength to not take the "dictator bait." 

If he overreacts everyone loses....

Everyone is losing now. Everyone. They don't give a rip, people are just pawns to them. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

On 6/2/2020 at 6:09 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

What amazes me is that, according to the Chinese news, there are now demostrations in Europe and elsewhere concerning racism and police brutality...in the States!

Where were these people during the Hong Kong demonstrations....or even during the Ferguson show?

I am becoming more and more convinced that an outside party is instigating this!

There are oodles of articles that explain why Europeans and others joined the protests. https://globalnews.ca/news/7018222/george-floyd-protests-europe-australia/
 

Quote

“This happened in the United States, but it happens in France, it happens everywhere,” Paris protester Xavier Dintimille said. While he said police violence seems worse in the U.S., he added, “all blacks live this to a degree.”

No need to invent conspiracy theory to explain it. 
 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

8 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Congratulations on figuring this out, Dan.  This fellow "Marcin," in addition to his other flaws, also makes denigrating comments about others, including me, which is why I have him on "Block."  Cheers. 

Heh-heh.  Figured it a long time ago and he has been blocked since.  However, I can still see parts of his comments when others respond to him, which was the case here.  In this case, the comment was being left largely unchallenged on its points and merits, so I decided to step in, lest the uninformed may have taken his assertions as truth.  Unacceptable in this case.  Have a good day, @Jan van Eck!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

What the US Constitution does is make limits on federal power, and reserves rights not specifically enumerated as reserved to the States, or to the People.

Well said. 

The Constitution is a rather unique document in that it does NOT grant rights to the people, but limits government.  Rights of the people are presumed given by The Creator, or God, and no man shall take them away.

Perhaps one of our more well-written friends can word that better.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

One can righteously argue that all the woes of the colonies should be laid at England's feet.  I believe slavery was well established by the time our wayward boats landed on the Eastern Seaboard, whereupon we set about reversing the practice all together.  Okay, it took us until Lincoln, but it took a couple of generations to wash the British blood out of our veins.  Therefore @James Regan should pay.  I'm sure it can all be traced back to his clan, and those that his lot took up with.

In all honesty, I don't feel comfortable joking about slavery.  Reparations to me are a joke; slavery is not.  But there is no way in hell I would willingly take responsibility for what my uncles may or may not have done, let alone any dead ancestors.

Some history is in order here

Quote

In July 1862, this ploy was revealed in a notorious document called the Hazard Circular, which was circulated by British banking interests among their American banking counterparts.  It said: Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and chattel slavery destroyed.  This, I and my European friends are glad of, for  slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages.  This can be done by controlling the money.   The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the war, must be used as a means to control the volume of money.  To accomplish this,  the bonds must be used as a banking basis. . . .  It will not do to allow the greenback, as it is called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that.2 The system the bankers wanted to preserve was what Henry Clay and Henry Carey had called the “British system,” with its twin weapons of “free trade” and the “gold standard” 

The British came to believe that slavery was stupid, because the care and feeding of slaves was on the owners, while serfs are left to fend for themselves. They were right, owning slaves became prohibitively expensive and counter productive. What skewed the economics was the value placed on slaves. One average adult slave in 1855 was worth $3000 while land was worth 50 cents an acre. Thomas Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but he couldn't afford to, they were mortgaged to the hilt to support Monticello. His 15,000 acres were only worth $7,500 (actually less).

The whole Mandingo fiction is just that, fiction. If you search for whipped slaves you'll find multiple variations of the same picture of the same man who came to the US looking like that. If you convert the value of a slave then to today's money, use land today as the metric. Pretty much cheapest farm land in the country is still at least $1000/acre. So that slave is worth $3Million in current money, at least. Would you willfully damage that? If you had a thoroughbred horse worth millions would you beat it just because you "owned" it? You'd be loath to cause any damage at all, and so were slave owners. 

Who were hurt the most by slavery weren't the slaves, but the poor whites who weren't needed for anything that slaves could do. They were the lowest dregs of society, and yet they carried the flag and guns for the Civil War effort, dying to support the very system that held them down. Crazy. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

9 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Some history is in order here

The British came to believe that slavery was stupid, because the care and feeding of slaves was on the owners, while serfs are left to fend for themselves. They were right, owning slaves became prohibitively expensive and counter productive. What skewed the economics was the value placed on slaves. One average adult slave in 1855 was worth $3000 while land was worth 50 cents an acre. Thomas Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but he couldn't afford to, they were mortgaged to the hilt to support Monticello. His 15,000 acres were only worth $7,500 (actually less).

The whole Mandingo fiction is just that, fiction. If you search for whipped slaves you'll find multiple variations of the same picture of the same man who came to the US looking like that. If you convert the value of a slave then to today's money, use land today as the metric. Pretty much cheapest farm land in the country is still at least $1000/acre. So that slave is worth $3Million in current money, at least. Would you willfully damage that? If you had a thoroughbred horse worth millions would you beat it just because you "owned" it? You'd be loath to cause any damage at all, and so were slave owners. 

Who were hurt the most by slavery weren't the slaves, but the poor whites who weren't needed for anything that slaves could do. They were the lowest dregs of society, and yet they carried the flag and guns for the Civil War effort, dying to support the very system that held them down. Crazy. 

Very interesting, indeed.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

50 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

 If you had a thoroughbred horse worth millions would you beat it just because you "owned" it?

Poor example, race horses are treated like shit.

Most of the rest I agree with - you don't damage your own "machines" 

[Marcin2 + 725]

12 hours ago, El Gato said:

We have free ballot access, just need an ID in most states

We have other parties ie: Libertarian,Greens, Communists, Independents also. None of them ever gain large traction. Pretty much the whole way through US history, it has been two parties, with Three on occasion(The Whig Party heyday)

We have  national referendums through Congress, they are called Constitutional Amendments, other wise, all referendums are a State level

By ballot access I mean access of other parties to ballot box: bery very difficult in US. Practically impossible for a party that does not have multimilion donors.

Parties mean something if they win seats in Parliament: House and Senate. I can create party but it has No impact on creation of law in US

Electoral system:first past the post creates 2 party system. And 2 party is worse than multiparty, less democracy , for example African Americans do not have own party and they should.

If you claim that there is referendum Please tell me:When was the last national referendum: all American   voting same day about any Notion ?

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[BradleyPNW + 282]

57 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Well said. 

The Constitution is a rather unique document in that it does NOT grant rights to the people, but limits government.  Rights of the people are presumed given by The Creator, or God, and no man shall take them away.

Perhaps one of our more well-written friends can word that better.

The constitution was written to strengthen the federal government because the Articles of Confederation were deemed too weak. It did not limit government over people, it limited the federal government over the states. State governments were free to make any laws they liked over people, including slavery. States even made laws preventing freed blacks from owning firearms, sanctioned by the US Supreme Court:
 

Quote

"6. The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendments means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government.

7. Sovereignty, for the protection of the rights of life and personal liberty within the respective States, rests alone with the States." - United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)

Constitutional rights and liberties were not granted to individuals until the mid 20th century through case law and legal precedent. 

(Also, you mixed up ideas from the Declaration of Independence -- a propaganda piece written to inspire rebellion -- with the US constitution.)
 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

Well said. 

The Constitution is a rather unique document in that it does NOT grant rights to the people, but limits government.  Rights of the people are presumed given by The Creator, or God, and no man shall take them away.

Perhaps one of our more well-written friends can word that better.

You worded it just fine!

[BradleyPNW + 282]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Who were hurt the most by slavery weren't the slaves, but the poor whites who weren't needed for anything that slaves could do. They were the lowest dregs of society, and yet they carried the flag and guns for the Civil War effort, dying to support the very system that held them down. Crazy. 

jfc, how can you be so wrong about so much so often? 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

1 minute ago, Jan van Eck said:

You worded it just fine!

See, a warning to all, if you block me you make an ass out of yourself like this guy because he couldn't read my post. 😉