World’s First Integrated Hydrogen Power-to-Power Demonstration Launched

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

"When the project wraps up as slated on April 30, 2024, it will seek to primarily achieve “operation at full load and production of 12 MW electrical energy with high-hydrogen fuel mixtures of at least 80% by volume hydrogen up to 100%.” Participants also said the tests will demonstrate that “EU emission limits for such installations can be not only met, but also reduced. Finally, the development of an economic assessment for this Power-to-H2-to-Power pilot plant demonstration will be conducted to show the economic benefits of this application.”

https://www.powermag.com/worlds-first-integrated-hydrogen-power-to-power-demonstration-launched/

[markslawson + 1,057]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

When the project wraps up as slated on April 30, 2024, it will seek to primarily achieve “operation at full load and production of 12 MW electrical energy

12 MW in 2024!! Jay, mate, I looked at the release you cited to see if you were kidding us but, nope, 12 MW. Never mind that a major power station might generate 2,000 MW, depending, and that peak gas plants would push out about 300 MW, this station will be pumping out an awesome 12 MW in 2024. Okay, it's supposes to prove the technology, although I still don't understand why we'd bother with hydrogen storage over long distance DC lines - that is if we wanted to waste money on renewables in the first place - but the Europeans might need a few more of those things.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, markslawson said:

12 MW in 2024!! Jay, mate, I looked at the release you cited to see if you were kidding us but, nope, 12 MW. Never mind that a major power station might generate 2,000 MW, depending, and that peak gas plants would push out about 300 MW, this station will be pumping out an awesome 12 MW in 2024. Okay, it's supposes to prove the technology, although I still don't understand why we'd bother with hydrogen storage over long distance DC lines - that is if we wanted to waste money on renewables in the first place - but the Europeans might need a few more of those things.

Yes, it is simply a technology demonstrator. Complaining about its small size is irrelevant.

Did you know that Australia's investment in solar and storage is about to make it one of the richest countries in the world from exporting energy to Asia? 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

3 hours ago, markslawson said:

12 MW in 2024!! Jay, mate, I looked at the release you cited to see if you were kidding us but, nope, 12 MW. Never mind that a major power station might generate 2,000 MW, depending, and that peak gas plants would push out about 300 MW, this station will be pumping out an awesome 12 MW in 2024. Okay, it's supposes to prove the technology, although I still don't understand why we'd bother with hydrogen storage over long distance DC lines - that is if we wanted to waste money on renewables in the first place - but the Europeans might need a few more of those things.

Because some people in Europe can figure out that the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine for long stretches during the winter and during the summer for long stretches there is little to no wind at all and patchy sun.  Spring/Fall are great, but then, they are great everywhere for wind at least.  Having all the HVDC lines in the world will not help you any unless you literally cover large stretches of the world with solar panels and pretend terrorists, wars, borders in between said solar panels and the dozens of nations etc wanting said power and said fees/tariffs, do not exist...   Since pumped hydro seems to be quaint at only ~50% efficient, and no one is building dams in Europe to help out, Europe is Hell bent on pursuing a technology with even worse energy efficiency.  H2 turbines.  The North Sea is literally going to be covered in wind turbines so thick you can walk across them.  The UK will be invaded by the Vikings once again! Technically it is possible, just need 15X -->20X more turbines than they have today.

[markslawson + 1,057]

22 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Yes, it is simply a technology demonstrator. Complaining about its small size is irrelevant.

Did you know that Australia's investment in solar and storage is about to make it one of the richest countries in the world from exporting energy to Asia? 

Jay, mate, go back and look at the size and the time line. If we could expect 12MW next year then that would make the technology a player, if not a very serious one, but at four years its obvious they're not serious. 

Of course I'm aware of the fantasies about exporting solar energy. I've been hearing them for decades now, and stopped paying attention long ago. Nothing will come of any of it. But are you aware that we are already a huge energy exporter, and I'm not just talking coal.  In the financial year to end this month, Aus is or was (before the virus thing) expected to export $54 billion worth of LNG, or a little more than double the value of thermal coal exports. 

Anyway, I will leave you to your fantasies. Careful waving your magic wand about now. You make poke someone in the eye.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 6/6/2020 at 2:02 AM, markslawson said:

12 MW in 2024!! Jay, mate, I looked at the release you cited to see if you were kidding us but, nope, 12 MW. Never mind that a major power station might generate 2,000 MW, depending, and that peak gas plants would push out about 300 MW, this station will be pumping out an awesome 12 MW in 2024. Okay, it's supposes to prove the technology, although I still don't understand why we'd bother with hydrogen storage over long distance DC lines - that is if we wanted to waste money on renewables in the first place - but the Europeans might need a few more of those things.

Why on earth would you build a proof of concept demo at full scale? 

[markslawson + 1,057]

7 hours ago, NickW said:

Why on earth would you build a proof of concept demo at full scale? 

You completely missed the point. It's also going to take them four years to do so. To anyone who is not an activist it is blindingly obvious that they are not serious. Look at that 8MW Gemasolar demonstration plant in Spain that was "proof" that renewable energy plants could operate 24 hours  a day. It was completed in 2011. Very few other plants since then and none to any scale. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 hours ago, markslawson said:

You completely missed the point. It's also going to take them four years to do so. To anyone who is not an activist it is blindingly obvious that they are not serious. Look at that 8MW Gemasolar demonstration plant in Spain that was "proof" that renewable energy plants could operate 24 hours  a day. It was completed in 2011. Very few other plants since then and none to any scale. 

I believe Crescent Dunes in Nevada is the biggest of the power tower CSP molten salt plants like Gemasolar.

The Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project is a 110 megawatt (MW) net^[3] solar thermal power project with 1.1 gigawatt-hours of energy storage.

But the largest trough system in the the US is Solana Generating Station is a solar power plant near Gila Bend, Arizona, about 70 miles (110 km) southwest of Phoenix, completed in 2013. When commissioned it was the largest parabolic trough plant in the world and the first U.S. solar plant with molten salt thermal energy storage.Built by the Spanish company Abengoa Solar, it has a total capacity of 280 megawatts (MW) gross, from two 140 MW gross (125 MW net) steam turbine generators. 1500MWh

Ultimately this technology is just not efficient. Molten salt is nasty stuff. Crescent Dunes went bankrupt and Solana might survive for a while longer but is having a rough go of it. This tech can't compete with PV and batteries.

Perhaps the H2 technology demonstrator will fail or maybe it won't. But they are serious. If it does fail then other processes will be tried until something succeeds or some other tech solves the problem. 

Maybe Noor will be successful, The 150 MW Noor III CSP tower in Morocco has exceeded performance targets on output and storage integration in the first few months of operation and financing costs for tower storage projects should fall in line with parabolic trough rates going forward, Xavier Lara, Senior Consultant at CSP engineering group Empresarios Agrupados (EA), told New Energy Update.https://www.solarpaces.org/moroccos-ourazazate-noor-iii-csp-tower-exceeds-performance-targets/

 

List of solar thermal power stations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_thermal_power_stations

Edited June 8, 2020 by Jay McKinsey