Germany requires all gas stations to provide EV charging

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Germany requires all gas stations to provide EV charging

https://electrek.co/2020/06/04/germany-requires-all-gas-stations-to-provide-ev-charging/Bradley Berman

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Good for Germany, more power to them, wish them the best!

Is this another ‘unfunded mandate’ from the government forcing businesses to provide a service without subsidizing the mandate?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

15 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Good for Germany, more power to them, wish them the best!

Is this another ‘unfunded mandate’ from the government forcing businesses to provide a service without subsidizing the mandate?

So there are companies out there that are in the business of electric charging. They will install and maintain the charging station and pay rent to the gas station owner. The funding will come from EV drivers buying electricity.

[notsonice + 1,068]

16 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Good for Germany, more power to them, wish them the best!

Is this another ‘unfunded mandate’ from the government forcing businesses to provide a service without subsidizing the mandate?

Like the unfunded mandate that 15 % ethanol/85 % gas mix as used in the US. Ethanol is a pure pork barrel program invented by ADM. We all subsidize the mandate every time we fuel up.

[NickW + 2,714]

16 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Good for Germany, more power to them, wish them the best!

Is this another ‘unfunded mandate’ from the government forcing businesses to provide a service without subsidizing the mandate?

In Europe fuels are almost a side line at gas stations - its the other stuff they sell that makes a profit and guess what a 15-20 minute charge time is far more likely to generate an extra sale than a pay at pump petrol fill up. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

That is lovely.  Most Gas stations are not near giant transformers and power lines.  Assuming they are actually honest about wanting charging stations instead of hour long "charging" station for a single car that will never show up other than in an emergency. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That is lovely.  Most Gas stations are not near giant transformers and power lines.  Assuming they are actually honest about wanting charging stations instead of hour long "charging" station for a single car that will never show up other than in an emergency. 

I don't know if they have electric car chargers where you live but we have a lot here and they are not near "giant transformers"

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

16 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I don't know if they have electric car chargers where you live but we have a lot here and they are not near "giant transformers"

Actually i love this entire thread....perhaps Germany will not shut down manufacturing 1 million dino cars to the US..Now that is forward thinking and true to the heart.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

19 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I don't know if they have electric car chargers where you live but we have a lot here and they are not near "giant transformers"

Actually they are, you are just blind.  Might want to look behind the building you are in the parking lot of...

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 minute ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Actually they are, you are just blind.  Might want to look behind the building you are in the parking lot of...

Well then those giant transformers must be everywhere, because we have chargers everywhere and that means it is no problem for the vast majority of gas stations, especially in urbanized Germany. They don't exactly have large wilderness areas there like the US does.

[markslawson + 1,042]

5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

So there are companies out there that are in the business of electric charging. They will install and maintain the charging station and pay rent to the gas station owner. The funding will come from EV drivers buying electricity.

 

3 hours ago, NickW said:

In Europe fuels are almost a side line at gas stations - its the other stuff they sell that makes a profit and guess what a 15-20 minute charge time is far more likely to generate an extra sale than a pay at pump petrol fill up. 

Guys go back and actually read the original article cited. The petrol stations aren't being told to permit a charging station. They are being told they have to have a charging station, and never mind customer demand or market forces or anything else. If there was the demand Jay imagines is there, then they would have already done this. As matters stand the petrol station owner will have to pay some company to install one which is then either idle (not earning money like a petrol pump) or tied up for 20 minutes earning comparatively small amounts from electrical charging. It is a huge imposition, all in the name of this peculiar EV fetish which seems to have gripped green voters..   

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

3 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Guys go back and actually read the original article cited. The petrol stations aren't being told to permit a charging station. They are being told they have to have a charging station, and never mind customer demand or market forces or anything else. If there was the demand Jay imagines is there, then they would have already done this. As matters stand the petrol station owner will have to pay some company to install one which is then either idle (not earning money like a petrol pump) or tied up for 20 minutes earning comparatively small amounts from electrical charging. It is a huge imposition, all in the name of this peculiar EV fetish which seems to have gripped green voters..   

The title of the thread clearly states "requires".

Just the other day you were complaining that enough charging stations would never be built regardless of demand. Now you are saying that if there was demand they would already be built. Well this should go a long way toward sufficient numbers in Germany and solving the chicken and egg problem.

The demand isn't there today but it will be tomorrow. (Tesla was the 2nd best selling car in all of Europe in the last data provided and the new incentives haven't even kicked in yet. Just wait until the Berlin factory opens) And it helps them begin the transition for when ICE cars are banned. What else are gas stations going to do when there are no gasoline cars?

Again, there are many companies to partner with who will provide the charger for free such as EVgo:

• EVgo builds and installs fast charging stations at no cost to you
• EVgo offers customized and turnkey charging solutions
• EVgo coordinates and oversees entire installation of chargers
• EVgo establishes agreements with local utility providers to secure electricity for the site
• EVgo monitors and maintains all the equipment after the site is complete
• EVgo provides marketing support to drive increased spend at your location
• EVgo provides 24/7 driver and host support
• EVgo provides a host portal to see utilization and energy usage

https://www.evgo.com/ev-charging-business/retail/

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[notsonice + 1,068]

6 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That is lovely.  Most Gas stations are not near giant transformers and power lines.  Assuming they are actually honest about wanting charging stations instead of hour long "charging" station for a single car that will never show up other than in an emergency. 

Most Gas stations are not near giant transformers and power lines ???? you mean most gas stations are not connected to the grid??? Not close to power lines??? Germany a third world country without electricity???? Ok.

Edited June 11, 2020 by notsonice

[notsonice + 1,068]

bump.

Edited June 11, 2020 by notsonice

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

55 minutes ago, notsonice said:

Most Gas stations are not near giant transformers and power lines ???? you mean most gas stations are not connected to the grid??? Not close to power lines??? Germany a third world country without electricity???? Ok.

Lets see if you genius's can figure this out using very simple math: You want to charge 200kWh in 10 minutes(2 x 100kWh = 2 cars on either side just like a gas pump).  You need WHAT amperage at 240V?  Hrmm?  ~600Amps.  What is normal?  200A ==>400A at the extreme, or 200A at 480V if lucky to be on 3 Phase.  Most commercial space is on 480V, but this is for the WHOLE complex, not just the adjunct gas station. 

Now, last I checked you need to charge more than 2 cars. Now last I checked, everyone else on your transformer ALSO wants power and you just hogged half of a standard transformer operating at 1000V.  They might be really PISSED if they get brown outs. 

Maybe one of you genius's can get off your lazy asses and do simple 14 year old math before opening your mouths at every turn even if you do not have a clue what an average transformer can take.... 

Even if we assume one can just increase the voltage, this will still require a higher duty transformer and a COMPLETE overhaul of the electrical system at the gas station.  This alone will cost $50,000==>$100,000

"Just increase voltage" ... Uh huh "just increase amperage"..... Uh huh.  Heard of safety standards and why they exist?  You cannot just increase them without complete replacement in most cases to much more expensive cables, 3/4 of which are now underground... under pavement.  This could easily cost $100,000 at minimum to upgrade if not $500,000 or more. 

Now last I checked, gas stations are placed by LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.  Move the location, and your business collapses. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Lets see if you genius's can figure this out using very simple math: You want to charge 200kWh in 10 minutes(2 x 100kWh = 2 cars on either side just like a gas pump).  You need WHAT amperage at 240V?  Hrmm?  ~600Amps.  What is normal?  200A ==>400A at the extreme, or 200A at 480V if lucky to be on 3 Phase.  Most commercial space is on 480V, but this is for the WHOLE complex, not just the adjunct gas station. 

Now, last I checked you need to charge more than 2 cars. Now last I checked, everyone else on your transformer ALSO wants power and you just hogged half of a standard transformer operating at 1000V.  They might be really PISSED if they get brown outs. 

Maybe one of you genius's can get off your lazy asses and do simple 14 year old math before opening your mouths at every turn even if you do not have a clue what an average transformer can take.... 

Even if we assume one can just increase the voltage, this will still require a higher duty transformer and a COMPLETE overhaul of the electrical system at the gas station.  This alone will cost $50,000==>$100,000

"Just increase voltage" ... Uh huh "just increase amperage"..... Uh huh.  Heard of safety standards and why they exist?  You cannot just increase them without complete replacement in most cases to much more expensive cables, 3/4 of which are now underground... under pavement.  This could easily cost $100,000 at minimum to upgrade if not $500,000 or more. 

Now last I checked, gas stations are placed by LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.  Move the location, and your business collapses. 

We will have to follow developments and see how Germany handles it. This directive is part of the stimulus package so presumably the gov't is going to provide funds for grid upgrades as needed. Particularity as it is unclear what the minimum charging standard will be. The rule could be that each station needs to provide what it can. So remote stations may only need to have level 2 charging that would be more for emergency road use. While those in dense city centers with robust grid connections will get fast chargers.

Ultimately I agree with the article that EV charging is a different mind set than using petrol. Destination charging where shopping center and business employee parking lots, for example, have level 2 at most of the parking stalls is a major part of the solution, particularly for vehicle to grid use.

 

 

[markslawson + 1,042]

22 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Just the other day you were complaining that enough charging stations would never be built regardless of demand. Now you are saying that if there was demand they would already be built. Well this should go a long way toward sufficient numbers in Germany and solving the chicken and egg problem.

The demand isn't there today but it will be tomorrow.

Jay, gain, sorry but you simply haven't understood what you're dealing with or anything about market forces or the numbers of cars on the road or almost anything else concerning this issue. For example, you imagine that putting in enough charging stations will overcome evident consumer resistance to buying EVs. Nope. Absolutely no evidence that is the case. As I believe that I've stated before, in Norway the government has basically bribed voters with major tax/road toll incentives  equivalent to about half the cost of the car to get substantial EV sales. The result has been the better off families now have two cars - an EV for commuting and a petrol car for any serious trips. Poor people make do with what they can get. Charging stations by themselves won't do much. You have to have the rest of the very-expensive package.

In the meantime the service station owners have to set aside a pump slot that would otherwise be earning good money for a charging slot and, as another poster pointed out, completely remake the station's electric system. You point to companies that will install charging stations for free, and say hopefully that maybe the government will handle the power upgrades. Again, I don't think you really grasped what's going on - the government has created a vast additional market. Those services are not going to stay free for long, and the power upgrades will be a major additional cost which someone has to pay for.

Anyway, that should give you some idea of the vast problems with this initiative. I should leave you to your fantasies I guess, but I can't help myself. Leave it with you. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

We have a public gasoline refueling business model because we don't have gasoline pipelines running into our homes. Building out a public EV charging infrastructure will have challenges. But if battery prices fall I'd imagine consumers will buy shorter range EVs and/or PHEVs with powerwalls for rapid home charging.

The main reason I bought a PHEV was for the convenience of refueling at home. If I was on the road with an EV and ran out of charge I'd only be interested in charging long enough to get home. I'm familiar with my driving habits so I doubt I'll get caught in a situation where I will need to use a public charger station. 

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:06 AM, markslawson said:

Jay, gain, sorry but you simply haven't understood what you're dealing with or anything about market forces or the numbers of cars on the road or almost anything else concerning this issue. For example, you imagine that putting in enough charging stations will overcome evident consumer resistance to buying EVs. Nope. Absolutely no evidence that is the case. As I believe that I've stated before, in Norway the government has basically bribed voters with major tax/road toll incentives  equivalent to about half the cost of the car to get substantial EV sales. The result has been the better off families now have two cars - an EV for commuting and a petrol car for any serious trips. Poor people make do with what they can get. Charging stations by themselves won't do much. You have to have the rest of the very-expensive package.

In the meantime the service station owners have to set aside a pump slot that would otherwise be earning good money for a charging slot and, as another poster pointed out, completely remake the station's electric system. You point to companies that will install charging stations for free, and say hopefully that maybe the government will handle the power upgrades. Again, I don't think you really grasped what's going on - the government has created a vast additional market. Those services are not going to stay free for long, and the power upgrades will be a major additional cost which someone has to pay for.

Anyway, that should give you some idea of the vast problems with this initiative. I should leave you to your fantasies I guess, but I can't help myself. Leave it with you. 

Germany imports approximately 2mb/d of oil. Even at just $40/barrel, that is $30 BILLION/year! Add in costs of refining and transport, you looking at $60bn/year. Obviously much cheaper for them to go all-electric over the longer-term? Did I mention National Security?

[markslawson + 1,042]

13 hours ago, Wombat said:

Germany imports approximately 2mb/d of oil. Even at just $40/barrel, that is $30 BILLION/year! Add in costs of refining and transport, you looking at $60bn/year. Obviously much cheaper for them to go all-electric over the longer-term? Did I mention National Security?

No it isn't. The import substitution argument is an old standby used by those who can't think of any other reason for asking governments to spend huge amounts of money - in this case throw so much money at EVs that consumers will buy them. In Norway tax breaks for EVs amount to half the cost of the car, then there are all the vast costs of setting up charging stations everywhere. Norway is an oil exporter, incidentally. But Germany already has a trade surplus so large that it draws criticism from other countries (buy more of our goods!). It should spend money stimulating domestic demand rather than mess around with elaborate, expensive ways to try to reduce dependence on oil. Import the stuff and be done with it.

As for national security, no one has used that argument seriously for decades. During World War II the Germans use to transform coal into oil - an expensive way to get an unsatisfactory form of oil. I doubt that they will want to be put in that position again, but it is highly unlikely the country would ever be cut off in that way again.

 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

"As for national security, no one has used that argument seriously for decades."

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2016&q=national+security+oil&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48

[Wombat + 1,028]

20 hours ago, markslawson said:

No it isn't. The import substitution argument is an old standby used by those who can't think of any other reason for asking governments to spend huge amounts of money - in this case throw so much money at EVs that consumers will buy them. In Norway tax breaks for EVs amount to half the cost of the car, then there are all the vast costs of setting up charging stations everywhere. Norway is an oil exporter, incidentally. But Germany already has a trade surplus so large that it draws criticism from other countries (buy more of our goods!). It should spend money stimulating domestic demand rather than mess around with elaborate, expensive ways to try to reduce dependence on oil. Import the stuff and be done with it.

As for national security, no one has used that argument seriously for decades. During World War II the Germans use to transform coal into oil - an expensive way to get an unsatisfactory form of oil. I doubt that they will want to be put in that position again, but it is highly unlikely the country would ever be cut off in that way again.

 

There is a good reason that Germany is the second largest net exporter on the planet. That is because their govt and unions and business are far-sighted, unlike the clowns here in Australia or the US and UK. Let me assure you, the Australian Defense Force has warned our govt repeatedly that they cannot fight a war because we do not have a secure supply of oil, yet our govt pays lip-service to the issue and refuses to even pay for the 90 day storage that we are obliged to keep by law. If we had 70% electric vehicles, then our oil & gas sector would make as self-sufficient, but even then we would need to build refineries to process our own oil as currently, the bulk of it gets exported. How do you think Japan and South Korea feel about their energy security? Like Australia, they don't have any energy security except the US Navy? Import substitution and energy security have never been as critical as they are today. Indeed, it is highly unlikely that China and Russia will change course and reverse their increasing levels of aggression toward the West and others.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

22 hours ago, markslawson said:

No it isn't. The import substitution argument is an old standby used by those who ....

As for national security, no one has used that argument seriously for decades.

Are we supposed to laugh, roll our eyes, or cry at this absurd statement? 

Power resides entirely around energy production/use.  Those who use a gob smacking amount of energy have an enormous power advantage over other nations.  Simple as that.  Those who use it efficiently have even more power.  Now it is true, that electric fighter planes, tanks, APC's, warships, will never go electric, but still it means consolidated power at home with a MUCH smaller demand for oil.  This obviously means less $$$ going out.  OF course a modern military needs gobs of other minerals etc, but all of these can be imported and STORED in vast quantities if you plan ahead. 

The only real wrong I see in how N. Europe is going about its wind energy goals is that they are making them out of RFP(not recyclable in the slightest) instead of aluminum which is entirely recyclable.  In fact, aluminum once refined into aluminum is far cheaper to recycle than steel, nickel, cobalt, lithium, etc and yet huge amounts of it get thrown away.  Even then, 70% of all aluminum used in the west is in situ/recycled.  Why not increase this amount?  Higher cost up front, true(smaller wind turbines without a change in design)

As for transportation electrification: this is a no brainer.  Everyone wants it due to reliability, noise, complexity.  The only problem is the technical feasibility(mostly energy density).   What I see is the problem is the pulling of the trigger before the technology is close enough to mature.  Now if Germany had mandated that all service stations have to update their power to said service stations... ok, but currently no one truly knows what the POWER requirements are unless you 100% refuse service to trucking.  I can calculate it, but I highly doubt that the mandate Germany just enacted  has this spec in it as the power requirements for an actual service station to fill all available slots of electrical vehicles in 10 minutes is beyond ENORMOUS and would probably require MOST service stations to simply close down and move as it would be far cheaper than trying to get that high power connection.  This is not a simple problem.  Then add the problem that we have at least 4 different connectors for cars and the number keeps expanding. 

If any law should be passed, it should be a STANDARD set for all power connections.  Ah, but TESLA will not go for that as they demand internet connection to their cars when filling for their high amperage service.  Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit, but what do you expect out of the scum mentality residing in San Francisco?

[markslawson + 1,042]

2 hours ago, Wombat said:

If we had 70% electric vehicles, then our oil & gas sector would make as self-sufficient, but even then we would need to build refineries to process our own oil as currently, the bulk of it gets exported.

I agree with a good part of your post but if we had to/were going to worry about oil imports then converting cars to LNG would be a vastly better bet than messing around with electrics which no one in Australia seems to want anyway. We produce heaps of LNG - we are, for the moment, the world's largest exporter - but not much oil. Anyway, leave it with you. 

[markslawson + 1,042]

1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Are we supposed to laugh, roll our eyes, or cry at this absurd statement? 

footeab - sorry but it isn't absurd at all. The security argument has not been used seriously for at least three decades, perhaps four - or at least not used seriously by anyone who knows what's going on, perhaps. Amateurs still sometimes use it. The world is simply too complex a place now. As for electrification of transport where they can do it, such as with trains, it has been done. Cars are a different matter. Germany's drive to green power has proved colossally, horrifically expensive and all that money has bought only limited success in getting rid of the brown coal stations on which the country still relies.  Now they want to load more onto a grid that is already struggling to cope with lunatic green policies.