Per most popular Indian websites it was Indian troops not Chinese troops breach of LAC that caused the clashes. If you know any Indian media that claim to the contrary please provide the link

[Marcin2 + 726]

I screened Indian media in order to understand the recent India-China border clashes.

And it was really strange what I found.

There is no claim in the most popular Indian websites like: Times of India or India Today that it was Chinese troops that crossed LAC.

Also these Indian websites has not refuted the statements of Chinese Foreign Ministry that: Indian troops crossed LAC.

It means that per Indian media it was Indian troops not Chinese troops breach of LAC that caused the clashes.

There is of course a lot of frenzy about Indian casualties, about what counter measures should be taken against China, but no claim that it was Chinese troops that crossed LAC.

If you know any contrary claims in any news sites, please provide the link.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[frankfurter + 562]

specifically, Aksai Chin. The border dispute has been simmering since India gained independence. Prior, India was a British colony; and post, India agreed to uphold all treaties, agreements, proclamations made by Britain respecting Indian lands and sovereignty, without amendments. This is a crucial point.

Britain set the border twixt India and China, very long before Indian independence, and very long before anybody could survey the mountain tops and valleys. Britain decided unilaterally the so-called lines, twice. 

The Johnson line came first, 1865, and ceded the Aksai region to India. Important: NO party accepted this line; not the UK, not the Indians, not the Chinese.  It was drawn by one man, acting unilaterally, without government approvals.

Later, 1893, the Chinese and English discussed a revised boundary, per maps both sides accepted.

Later, 1899, Governor General of India, Lord Elgin, accepted a new boundary, the Macartney–MacDonald Line. This new boundary superseded the Johnson line, and used the Laktsang Range, in the Karakoram Mountains, as the clear, natural boundary. The lands south of the range (Lingzi Tang plains) were ceded to India, and the lands north (Aksai Chin) were ceded to China. In late 1899, Sir Claude MacDonald sent a letter to the China Emperor, stating the UK accepted the Macartney–MacDonald Line as the de facto and de jure boundary twixt China and the UK colony of India.

Wikipedia and Britannica assert the Chinese never responded to the Macartney–MacDonald Line, but this is not true. A letter was sent to Macartney while he was stationed in HongKong, during the time the UK was forcing China to sign the 99 year lease for Hong Kong. The Chinese claim the letter was delivered; the British claim it was not received. Regardless, the UK set the line, to supersede the former line, and this is a matter of historical record.

Whatever the holes and mysteries, the fact remains; Britain set the boundary; the maps drawn by the Brits show the Macartney–MacDonald Line; the maps were accepted by both the Brits and Chinese, during their in-person conference in 1893; India knew of the Macartney–MacDonald Line at time of independence, and is thus bound to accept it.

Fast forward to today... India does not accept the Macartney–MacDonald Line. India wants the Johnson line, set arbitrarily by one person some 34 years earlier.  Given the UK superseded this line, India's contention has no validity.

The LAC is essentially the Macartney–MacDonald Line.

To the recent conflict, the Indian troops did indeed cross the LAC. The soldiers admit this. Thus, China is not the aggressor. China did what any country would do: defend its position.

Trump has declared China to be America's enemy. Recently, Trump and Modi had hugged each other in a most warm and friendly manner.  Trump has pledged military aid and cooperation to India. The incursion by Indian troops followed the hug fest. Coincidences? 

 

[Marcin2 + 726]

I am trying to stay neutral as an outside observer so I do not say that Indian or Chinese claims are more valid.

I just wanted to know who breached the stable status quo relating to their common border.

The border has not changed since 1949. And the border was peaceful since 1962.

Per bloomberg Indian troops attacked Chinese outpost on the Chinese side of LAC but which India deems unlawful ( the outpost).  Why unlawful ? Nobody explained.

Per Indian claims there were much more Chinese casualties than Indian casualties.

China tries to end the border clash and  hush/ solve the issue.

But PM Modi of India needs to wind up nationalism and aggravate the situation as a diversion from dire economic situation of India.

Yesterday Covid and unemployment problems were not that important cause border conflict rules the news.

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

Just so that readers understand what China is taking over, here is the Galwan River valley, up in the Hindu Kush mountains, completely uninhabited, except for various "posts" typically manned by 20 soldiers, sprinkled here and there and many many miles apart:

The Commies decided that they wanted to move the Border to the South, thus gobbling up more slices of India's territory.  Now, this was not accomplished by gunfire.  Instead, the Chinese "Liberation Army" crafted these wooden bats, and then stuck these long nails through them, to create nail-studded clubs with which to do some serious hurt.  The 17 Indian soldiers they clubbed with their nail bats were so seriously injured that they all died even after evacuation to hospitals in the South.  No one survived. 

What the Commies are doing is exactly what they are doing in the South China Sea:  expand their territory by taking it from others, one salami slice at a time.  The idea is that nobody is going to go to war with them over some slices of uninhabited territory, be that in the coral reefs of the Spratley Islands or the far Northern mountains of India.  Readers may keep in mind that what China claims as Chinese was the southern border of the independent nation of Tibet, until the Chinese Communists knocked that over back around 1954.  So the posture is, "It's ours!" because it was previously the border with Tibet, and hey, we took that, so now we take this.  Charming logic. 

Understand this clearly, people:  The Chinese Communists are a band of criminals, the scum of Asia, and they can and will kill you, including using nails, including clubbing you to death, over - some piece of worthless rock.  That is their level of culture.  Death by nails.  What a lovely people.  Just lovely.

And: for Americans, what can you do about it?  Simple: refuse to buy anything with that label: "Made in China."  Boycott them. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Jan van Eck
typing error

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Vietnam got similar problem for 10 years after the border war until the Collapse of Soviet Union and the Vietnamese Government  lost their biggest ally. So it has been border skirmish for 10 years. We lost several high points during that time. End with Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish and we lost half of the islands. The stronger side is more likely to start the conflicts and CCP is wanting a distraction. For both India and Vietnam Gov, to clarify the location it occur mean telling their people we couldn't keep the land and lost some and facing a call for war to take it back. And no one want to be targeted by a desperate CCP right now (Deng Xiao Ping used the border war with Vietnam as a way to eliminate opposite faction and consolidate power).  Both sides benefit from the foggy border line and events. Most Vietnamese didn't know much about 10 years of skirmishing or losing land in the 10 years period or just know there were some conflicts.  Most of them know the Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish only.

After the Soviet Union's collapse,there was a debate inside Vietnamese Communist Party weather we should follow Soviet Union and the Easter Europe or following China model. Most of party member who wanted to have Democracy came from people who joined Vietcong with the purposes of get out of French colonial state, following unifying the country because North Vietnam and VietCong was the only one gave that option and the latest didn't want to lean on China and see Democracy was the only option. This has been the strongest momentum but suddenly the lean China faction won. Rumors we have to make a deal to normalize relationship with China that in 2020, Vietnam would be an autonomous zone. The losing side lamented that :""back to colonial time". 

The Vietnamese don't like CCP for their crimes in the border war and historical enemy  (with minority want to benefit from doing business with China and Goverment for corruption but this relationship gone without money) but I don't have any hope for the current Gov either. Since then Vietnam tries to following China economy model (and that was the only reason I was interested in China economy model or economics or geopolitics in the first place) but at a lower radical level and smaller scale in propaganda (maybe same mainstream style with CNN), less crimes (no Tianmen square or falun gong), and a bit more freedom (you can talk bad about VCP but at long as you don't join any organization to overthrow them) but surely much less human rights or justice compares to the Western standard. Lawyers are limited in small civil or business issues. The big explanation for that is the South Vietnamese at first were managed by France in colonial time with western educations and later on some taste of US freedom influence for another 20 years, you wouldn't want to lose too much of the freedom you had. The former boomer generation seemed to trade Democracy for  Unification. We may have some freedom in the between of China and HongKong. But Communism destroyed social bonds &ethical values fast and money are used to ease the pain.

Edited June 19, 2020 by SUZNV

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

7 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Just so that readers understand what China is taking over, here is the Galwan River valley, up in the Hindu Kush mountains, completely uninhabited, except for various "posts" typically manned by 20 soldiers, sprinkled here and there and many many miles apart:

The Commies decided that they wanted to move the Border to the South, thus gobbling up more slices of India's territory.  Now, this was not accomplished by gunfire.  Instead, the Chinese "Liberation Army" crafted these wooden bats, and then stuck these long nails through them, to create nail-studded clubs with which to do some serious hurt.  The 17 Indian soldiers they clubbed with their nail bats were so seriously injured that they all died even after evacuation to hospitals in the South.  No one survived. 

What the Commies are doing is exactly what they are doing in the South China Sea:  expand their territory by taking it from others, one salami slice at a time.  The idea is that nobody is going to go to war with them over some slices of uninhabited territory, be that in the coral reefs of the Spratley Islands or the far Northern mountains of India.  Readers may keep in mind that what China claims as Chinese was the southern border of the independent nation of Tibet, until the Chinese Communists knocked that over back around 1954.  So the posture is, "It's ours!" because it was previously the border with Tibet, and hey, we took that, so now we take this.  Charming logic. 

Understand this clearly, people:  The Chinese Communists are a band of criminals, the scum of Asia, and they can and will kill you, including using nails, including clubbing you to death, over - some piece of worthless rock.  That is their level of culture.  Death by nails.  What a lovely people.  Just lovely.

And: for Americans, what can you do about it?  Simple: refuse to buy anything with that label: "Made in China."  Boycott them. 

It's not worthless rock. My guess is they've discovered valuable ores there, perhaps REE that they want. Similar to their South China Sea excursions, which have a military and economic design, primarily oil and fishing. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Maybe, or they could want another diversion. They will not scare off India though. Not under the present leadership. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Now they are encroaching on Japanese territory. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/19/japan-files-diplomatic-protest-against-chinas-maritime-encroachment/

This indicates, to me, that the diversions are to keep their own people in line by trying to arouse their Han nationalism 

[Marcin2 + 726]

56 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Now they are encroaching on Japanese territory. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/19/japan-files-diplomatic-protest-against-chinas-maritime-encroachment/

This indicates, to me, that the diversions are to keep their own people in line by trying to arouse their Han nationalism 

It is more and more difficult to be neutral, unbiased observer at this forum.

Because staying neutral in a biased environment automatically makes me look pro-CCP. Even  that I know that it is not true, I do feel incomfortable with all these accusations.

But it is not towards you Ron, cause you do not make such accusations, it is general remark.

I think that to the contrary China wants to contain Han nationalism, at least in relation to India-China border clashes issue.

There are many Indian and other sources claiming that Chinese casualties were much higher than Indian, probably 45-65 Chinese soldiers killed.

But China never acknowledged officially that there were any casualties nor what the number is.

Any information that Chinese soldiers died in combat would cause outrage in China.

CCP wants to prevent it.

 

[Marcin2 + 726]

20 hours ago, SUZNV said:

Vietnam got similar problem for 10 years after the border war until the Collapse of Soviet Union and the Vietnamese Government  lost their biggest ally. So it has been border skirmish for 10 years. We lost several high points during that time. End with Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish and we lost half of the islands. The stronger side is more likely to start the conflicts and CCP is wanting a distraction. For both India and Vietnam Gov, to clarify the location it occur mean telling their people we couldn't keep the land and lost some and facing a call for war to take it back. And no one want to be targeted by a desperate CCP right now (Deng Xiao Ping used the border war with Vietnam as a way to eliminate opposite faction and consolidate power).  Both sides benefit from the foggy border line and events. Most Vietnamese didn't know much about 10 years of skirmishing or losing land in the 10 years period or just know there were some conflicts.  Most of them know the Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish only.

After the Soviet Union's collapse,there was a debate inside Vietnamese Communist Party weather we should follow Soviet Union and the Easter Europe or following China model. Most of party member who wanted to have Democracy came from people who joined Vietcong with the purposes of get out of French colonial state, following unifying the country because North Vietnam and VietCong was the only one gave that option and the latest didn't want to lean on China and see Democracy was the only option. This has been the strongest momentum but suddenly the lean China faction won. Rumors we have to make a deal to normalize relationship with China that in 2020, Vietnam would be an autonomous zone. The losing side lamented that :""back to colonial time". 

The Vietnamese don't like CCP for their crimes in the border war and historical enemy  (with minority want to benefit from doing business with China and Goverment for corruption but this relationship gone without money) but I don't have any hope for the current Gov either. Since then Vietnam tries to following China economy model (and that was the only reason I was interested in China economy model or economics or geopolitics in the first place) but at a lower radical level and smaller scale in propaganda (maybe same mainstream style with CNN), less crimes (no Tianmen square or falun gong), and a bit more freedom (you can talk bad about VCP but at long as you don't join any organization to overthrow them) but surely much less human rights or justice compares to the Western standard. Lawyers are limited in small civil or business issues. The big explanation for that is the South Vietnamese at first were managed by France in colonial time with western educations and later on some taste of US freedom influence for another 20 years, you wouldn't want to lose too much of the freedom you had. The former boomer generation seemed to trade Democracy for  Unification. We may have some freedom in the between of China and HongKong. But Communism destroyed social bonds &ethical values fast and money are used to ease the pain.

I understand your Vietnamese painful experience with dealing with much stronger neighbour to the North , the neighbour that at times occuppied your country.

In Poland we have the same situation with Russia.

It is very difficult for a small/middle sized country to deal with huge neighbour.

At present it is much more difficult for Vietnam than for Poland, cause  Poland is in NATO and EU, and hopefully we would even have permanent presence of US soldiers in US base. There is a consensus in Poland that the best strategic option for Poland is to have large US base, and that we should pay all the costs of this base.

And Fortunately for Poland our huge neighbour Russia is in relative economic, military and political decline since 1980s.

On the other hand huge neighbour of Vietnam that is China is in upward economic and military trend.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Marcin2
Added info

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

23 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

It's not worthless rock. My guess is they've discovered valuable ores there, perhaps REE that they want. Similar to their South China Sea excursions, which have a military and economic design, primarily oil and fishing. 

My personal guess is:  control of the water, specifically the headwater streams out of the Himalayas.  Lots of Western China is arid, and the big rivers to the East are heavily polluted, all of which makes for big headaches in clean water sourcing.  

[ronwagn + 6,290]

18 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

It is more and more difficult to be neutral, unbiased observer at this forum.

Because staying neutral in a biased environment automatically makes me look pro-CCP. Even  that I know that it is not true, I do feel incomfortable with all these accusations.

But it is not towards you Ron, cause you do not make such accusations, it is general remark.

I think that to the contrary China wants to contain Han nationalism, at least in relation to India-China border clashes issue.

There are many Indian and other sources claiming that Chinese casualties were much higher than Indian, probably 45-65 Chinese soldiers killed.

But China never acknowledged officially that there were any casualties nor what the number is.

Any information that Chinese soldiers died in combat would cause outrage in China.

CCP wants to prevent it.

 

I did see one report that 35 Chinese were killed or wounded but I can't remember where it was. If they want to decrease nationalism, who is in control of the border forces and why would they allow border aggression to begin with? Why would they allow agitation of Japan and other touchy areas? Why not buy the commodities, agreed to, from America? Why would they encourage North Korea to pressure South Korea? Who is in charge, the armed forces of China or Xi?

I would love to see normalization of relations and moderation within China with more freedom and a better lifestyle for the Chinese people. The CCP seems to want to push forward with aggressive plans worldwide. That will turn the world against China IMHO. 

https://news.yahoo.com/india-prime-minister-meet-opposition-100831630.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/souths-unification-minister-resigns-as-korean-tensions-rise_3394745.html

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by ronwagn
added reference

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

My personal guess is:  control of the water, specifically the headwater streams out of the Himalayas.  Lots of Western China is arid, and the big rivers to the East are heavily polluted, all of which makes for big headaches in clean water sourcing.  

You may be right, @Jan van Eck.  Here in Thailand, we have suffered from annual droughts over the last 8 years or so.  And guess what the biggest reason is?  China taking the water that historically flowed down the Mekong river. 

We've also suffered from a number of dam failures up in China which flood not only Thailand but neighboring countries as well.  And it's not always failures of the dams; sometimes it is the deliberate destruction of older dams up in China, for whatever purposes they may have.

They are in essence holding all of Southeast Asia hostage to clean water with the threat of either drought or the flooding out any uncooperative types.  This is brutal in the extreme and has caused loss of life for peoples outside of China with no regard to life or property.

[frankfurter + 562]

20 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

It is more and more difficult to be neutral, unbiased observer at this forum.

Because staying neutral in a biased environment automatically makes me look pro-CCP. Even  that I know that it is not true, I do feel incomfortable with all these accusations.

But it is not towards you Ron, cause you do not make such accusations, it is general remark.

I think that to the contrary China wants to contain Han nationalism, at least in relation to India-China border clashes issue.

There are many Indian and other sources claiming that Chinese casualties were much higher than Indian, probably 45-65 Chinese soldiers killed.

But China never acknowledged officially that there were any casualties nor what the number is.

Any information that Chinese soldiers died in combat would cause outrage in China.

CCP wants to prevent it.

 

So the Poles have no nationalism? No borders? Why have you joined nato? 80 years ago, you believed you had an iron pact with an imperial power who would come to your rescue. How did that go for you? Fools never learn.

I summarised the history, above. For the past 70 years, China has made innumerable proposals to resolve the border issue: India has refused all of them. In fact, the latest incursion by Indian troops is not the first: India has crossed many times. India is bound by the terms of independence to uphold all that the UK established prior. The border was established by the UK, prior, and China accepted. India wants a border that predates the final one set by the UK. Effectively, India is reneging the border.

Would you, Poland, accept your neighbour reneging on the border twixt you?   If your neighbour sent its soldiers across any line, when you agreed mutually not to, would you simply allow those troops to remain, or would you attempt to repel them? 

The solution to the border is simple: India accepts the demarcation set by the UK prior to independence, per the terms of independence hand-over. That demarcation is known today as the LAC.  Simple. 

 

[Marcin2 + 726]

2 hours ago, frankfurter said:

So the Poles have no nationalism? No borders? Why have you joined nato? 80 years ago, you believed you had an iron pact with an imperial power who would come to your rescue. How did that go for you? Fools never learn.

I summarised the history, above. For the past 70 years, China has made innumerable proposals to resolve the border issue: India has refused all of them. In fact, the latest incursion by Indian troops is not the first: India has crossed many times. India is bound by the terms of independence to uphold all that the UK established prior. The border was established by the UK, prior, and China accepted. India wants a border that predates the final one set by the UK. Effectively, India is reneging the border.

Would you, Poland, accept your neighbour reneging on the border twixt you?   If your neighbour sent its soldiers across any line, when you agreed mutually not to, would you simply allow those troops to remain, or would you attempt to repel them? 

The solution to the border is simple: India accepts the demarcation set by the UK prior to independence, per the terms of independence hand-over. That demarcation is known today as the LAC.  Simple. 

 

I do not understand your post.

I have written that per all available sources and mainly Indian sources it was India that crossed the LAC and attacked Chinese post.

And I have written that China reacts with cool head trying to deal with Indian actions in a smart way. The most important issue for China in this case is domestic audience. That is why China cannot publish the details about Indian attack, number of Chinese casualties. China is playing a very long game, in short their authorities are patriotic and know that any action on Chinese side or even acknowledging what happened would cause a lot of harm to the country. They would wait out this attack and probably many other Indian actions this is the best strategy.

I know history. Indian politicians in this dispute with China are clearly acting ( for 70 years ) against Indian national interests.

Zhou Enlai proposed a very generous solution that each country keeps status quo. 

I was trying to understand what is in the heads of Indians and Indian politicians in particular.

Border dispute with China is about small płot of barren land that do not have economic value for either country.

India has border disputes: with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan , Myanmar. ALL its neighbours.

It is a disaster for Indian foreign policy.

I think that due to difficult economic situation Modi tries to divert attention of hungry Indians towards border dispute with China topic.

I think that poor, hungry and unemployed India would be a real threat to the world. Poor people have nothing to lose.

China and US are in hegemonic conflict but both countries are relatively Well off , so it would be  brutal conflict but citizens of either society would not  be willing to die in war. With India it is different, 80% of its population is dirt poor, they are just desperate.

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Marcin2
New info

[frankfurter + 562]

"India has border disputes: with China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan , Myanmar. ALL its neighbours."

True. China has resolved all border disputes except with India. Google maps show a dashed line for the Tajik border, indicating disputed, but this is entirely incorrect: the border is no longer disputed, since 2011. Reason for China-India dispute: India refuses to resolve, which is the same reason for India's borders for all other countries. A myriad of factors are involved, so impossible to say which factor would be the one to most likely motivate India to resolve the border with China.

 

[Hotone + 412]

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

12 minutes ago, Hotone said:

Yes, that's funny.  But as usual, our Indian friends haven't thought through their current nationalist fervor:

India Can Boycott China, But at What Cost?

(Excerpted headlines, full Times of India article at the link)

China is India's second-largest trade partner...
 ...but India is one of China’s smaller partners

[SUZNV + 1,197]

One indicator  that China started it is that their soldiers did have the maces with nails ready while India soldiers were empty handed  and out numbered. Indian soldiers were unlikely to cross the LAC without scouting or preparation.Maybe Chinese High ranking officer wanted to show his loyalty is outstanding for promotion and tried to show his training result by using hand-made maces to make sure but look like India soldiers  have much more experience on highland combat because of border tension with China and Pakistan are on very high terrain while China concentrated more in marine landing drills for Taiwan.

But under normal circumstance, India wouldn't want to risk a border war with China (they has less money to do so) while she is courting manufacturing moving from China and time in India side:

https://www.bloombergquint.com/global-economics/india-offers-land-twice-luxembourg-s-size-to-firms-leaving-china

From US Intel: China provoked it.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-06-22/us-intel-source-china-ordered-attack-on-indian-troops-in-galwan-river-valley 

China soldiers are not famous for their combat skills or bravery, I think one of the reason is because of ex one child policy. And it seems they cheated again with numbers and weapons this time. Last year they cheated in international competition:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/asia/china-military-world-games-cheating-intl-hnk-scli/index.html

There was an event in South Sudan in 2016 that they abandoned their post and run away (China denied it off course):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/06/un-peacekeepers-refused-to-help-south-sudan-rebels-raped-aid-workers-report

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by SUZNV

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, SUZNV said:

China soldiers are not famous for their combat skills or bravery, I think one of the reason is because of ex one child policy. And it seems they cheated again with numbers and weapons this time. Last year they cheated in international competition:

You're right, and an astute observation. The one child policy coupled with Chinese patriarchal norms meant that most (surviving) babies were male and were treated like shao wangxi (little princelings) their whole life. Since my kids are half Chinese I've known a lot of their peers from mainland China. Spoiled brat only children whose parents doted on them. How they fare in the business world isn't pretty and I can only imagine how they'd fare in the US Army under our drill sergeants. My wife was always concerned that our kids weren't keeping up with the Jones (Lee's, Wongs, Chins) and I kept telling her, just wait. Now that they're in their 30's they're well ahead of those little darlings the parents bragged about constantly. They're into their second and third homes, while the wangxi have moved back into mommy's basement. 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

You're right, and an astute observation. The one child policy coupled with Chinese patriarchal norms meant that most (surviving) babies were male and were treated like shao wangxi (little princelings) their whole life. Since my kids are half Chinese I've known a lot of their peers from mainland China. Spoiled brat only children whose parents doted on them. How they fare in the business world isn't pretty and I can only imagine how they'd fare in the US Army under our drill sergeants. My wife was always concerned that our kids weren't keeping up with the Jones (Lee's, Wongs, Chins) and I kept telling her, just wait. Now that they're in their 30's they're well ahead of those little darlings the parents bragged about constantly. They're into their second and third homes, while the wangxi have moved back into mommy's basement. 

There is similar situation in Vietnam. The generation grew through the wars and hardship until 1990s. 1980s generation were mixed with patriotism,ideology and materialistic and have to compete for very limited universities slots  while generation after 1990 are more spoiled with the sudden better life and more materialistic especially in the cities. In metro cities without parents guidance or "brainwash" them to compete for STEM or prepare jobs for them, most of average students, who now will have an offer of places in private Uni no matter of their marks want to do business administrative, marketing or business college degrees and ended up burning all of their family's saving in startup. 

Unless having or good jobs or from country side laborers go to cities for works will rent apartments, or rich parents giving them apartments, most of people in the cities live with  their parents. 

The fundamental differences between VN and China military are we don't have one child policy and military recruits mostly from the poor families (Conscription is compulsory for age 18-28). Youngsters in city will pay bribe to not be conscripted(less future and dangerous because the obsession with being invaded by China ) while in China youngster competed for recruiting for a military political career for the ruling class, poor youngster are much needed for labors.

Edited June 23, 2020 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

You're right, and an astute observation. The one child policy coupled with Chinese patriarchal norms meant that most (surviving) babies were male and were treated like shao wangxi (little princelings) their whole life. Since my kids are half Chinese I've known a lot of their peers from mainland China. Spoiled brat only children whose parents doted on them. How they fare in the business world isn't pretty and I can only imagine how they'd fare in the US Army under our drill sergeants. My wife was always concerned that our kids weren't keeping up with the Jones (Lee's, Wongs, Chins) and I kept telling her, just wait. Now that they're in their 30's they're well ahead of those little darlings the parents bragged about constantly. They're into their second and third homes, while the wangxi have moved back into mommy's basement. 

I always said they actually have 6 doting parents who spoil them incessantly.  That's because you have the natural parents, but you also have the grandparents from both sides that will both only be getting the one grandchild.   It has resulted in some incredibly spoiled, self-entitled "adult" babies.  Just google hysterical Chinese traveller.  It's not all of them, obviously.  My Chinese wife would never have been seen acting in such ways, BUT she used to watch the entitled brats meltdown and giggle and laugh at them like a child herself.  It was one of those moments in China, of which there were many, where you got to watch an adult child screaming to get their way, while also watching your wife giggle and laugh at the child that was doing the screaming.  Priceless!  There were so many moments like that in China and it is one of the reasons that I loved living there.

A Canadian friend of mine (RIP) used to just say "You've gotta love the Drama, eh!"  And that did say it all.

 

[specinho + 470]

On 6/19/2020 at 2:56 AM, Marcin2 said:

It means that per Indian media it was Indian troops not Chinese troops breach of LAC that caused the clashes.

 

On 6/19/2020 at 9:51 AM, frankfurter said:

To the recent conflict, the Indian troops did indeed cross the LAC. The soldiers admit this. Thus, China is not the aggressor. China did what any country would do: defend its position.

 

On 6/19/2020 at 7:27 PM, Jan van Eck said:

 Instead, the Chinese "Liberation Army" crafted these wooden bats, and then stuck these long nails through them, to create nail-studded clubs with which to do some serious hurt.  The 17 Indian soldiers they clubbed with their nail bats were so seriously injured that they all died even after evacuation to hospitals in the South.  No one survived.

 

On 6/23/2020 at 8:02 PM, SUZNV said:

One indicator  that China started it is that their soldiers did have the maces with nails ready while India soldiers were empty handed  and out numbered.

Has anyone seen a news clip at prime time which says Indian soldiers provoked war at the border by using stones and cricket bats...................??? It didn't mention casualty, however....

📢  whoever is on arm sales ought to get to India quickly before sling guys get there................ or no??

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by specinho

[JoMack + 549]

On 6/19/2020 at 6:27 AM, Jan van Eck said:

Just so that readers understand what China is taking over, here is the Galwan River valley, up in the Hindu Kush mountains, completely uninhabited, except for various "posts" typically manned by 20 soldiers, sprinkled here and there and many many miles apart:

The Commies decided that they wanted to move the Border to the South, thus gobbling up more slices of India's territory.  Now, this was not accomplished by gunfire.  Instead, the Chinese "Liberation Army" crafted these wooden bats, and then stuck these long nails through them, to create nail-studded clubs with which to do some serious hurt.  The 17 Indian soldiers they clubbed with their nail bats were so seriously injured that they all died even after evacuation to hospitals in the South.  No one survived. 

What the Commies are doing is exactly what they are doing in the South China Sea:  expand their territory by taking it from others, one salami slice at a time.  The idea is that nobody is going to go to war with them over some slices of uninhabited territory, be that in the coral reefs of the Spratley Islands or the far Northern mountains of India.  Readers may keep in mind that what China claims as Chinese was the southern border of the independent nation of Tibet, until the Chinese Communists knocked that over back around 1954.  So the posture is, "It's ours!" because it was previously the border with Tibet, and hey, we took that, so now we take this.  Charming logic. 

Understand this clearly, people:  The Chinese Communists are a band of criminals, the scum of Asia, and they can and will kill you, including using nails, including clubbing you to death, over - some piece of worthless rock.  That is their level of culture.  Death by nails.  What a lovely people.  Just lovely.

And: for Americans, what can you do about it?  Simple: refuse to buy anything with that label: "Made in China."  Boycott them. 

I found out trying to buy a product NOT made in China on-line is a b***h.    Even when you dig in to find products relating to such things as underwear for example, and you ask "show products made in U.S.A." you get the product and it says "some material made in China".  Drives me insane!  

Now, I believe on Saturday, China began it's wonderful 10 day Yulin Dog Meat Festival - YAY!!  The Chinese claim it's part of their culture, but it was started in 2009.  So, I guess it's just one of those Chinese internal affair things where, like Hong Kong, the South China Sea, Taiwan, India and the rest of the world they are set on annexing, is to be left alone.  This so called festival is animal cruelty at its apex.  China says it has another virus outbreak in Beijing, which I think is a ruse since they are a bit less than transparent with this virus and everything else, and tell us the current virus probably came from a wet market, yet thousands of dogs and cats are skinned alive and eaten during Yulin Dog Meat Festival.  It's madness, but Xi, in my opinion, is a psychopath.  I believe Trump praises him since God knows what he'd do if he didn't.  A nuke would probably be his preferred method of a response and I'm talking about Xi.

 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

16 hours ago, Hotone said:

A conflict of interest on both sides!🤣😢