SUZNV + 1,197 June 24, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Marcin2 said: @SUZNV EU didn't mind to have US troops station on their land while most of China's neighbor do mind. China's troops are within its borders bar Djibuti were everybody has a base. Presence of US in EU dates back to USSR times, and we still think it is a good and VERY CHEAP way to defend our countries, even if we lose some of the sovereignty. But I think when Germany would inevitably flex it military muscle in the future and go nuclear it would kick US out the country. EU and US interest are just already too divergent, containment of EU is the strategic goal of US, otherwise US cannot go after China. China's surrounded situation is because of the her geo location and most of the countries are surrounded by their neighbors. That is not an excuse for I need the sea more than you. China has every land border regulated bar Indian ( and small , really small patch with Bhutan). China wanted to regulate all border disputes as it was weaking its strategic situation, the way it is a disaster for India for 70 years. It is not just but they are stronger than Vietnam so would keep the islands. The same way they proved their super power over nature with the Three Gorges Dam. US had many bad decisions against their own interest (the same way the lobbying may not for US interests) while CCP would never so I wouldn't think a better world with that bi-polar system.We had 2 world wars and 1 cold war for the bi-polar system before. I do not say it is good or bad, world is bi-polar, the FACT. Chinese economy is nearly 3 times larger than Japanese in nominal and 5 times in PPP GDP. US economy is 4 times larger than Japanese economy. US didn't control the UN Actually it did till 1970s and prevented Chinese membership and WTO actually it did and prevented access of China as long as US could, until Bush the younger traded the membership for backing War of Terror. US didn't have any short of going after China until Trump was on power and have the trade war. TPP was just a smoke plan more like lean China party in the US pretended to do something. US troops's purpose in the EU was never about containment but firstly to end the WW2, secondly for USSR and their Easter Europe black at that time. What does US gain for containment EU by putting troops there? There is no containment meaning if foreign troops leave if the host request. What did US do to damage EU economically or militarily for its gain or act against EU? If EU countries emphasized on individual sovereignty they would have not EU idea in the first place. Europe didn't grant US the throne in the first place and EU can kick the US away and ask Russia to join EU anytime if enough trust between leaders. China didn't own the world by military or GDP or even in economy power, as I explained countless of time. They cannot impose sanction war on anyone else, no sea blockage. The only hegemony power they have are from using their market/investment as bait for people who wish to sell their countries' interests for personal gain, no matter politicians or businesses. Any actions China did to others, US can do exactly the same, it just didn't. China didn't simply keep the islands. They have ships ramming at other fishing boats on the sea where they were fishing for generations, did US ever do that? The purpose of China doing that is to scare other fishing boats, then only Chinese fishing boats on that sea and they can claim the sea for themselves when they have enough power to do so, with no other fishing boats have been fishing there in .... years as evidence. --------- The weapons + India was weaker economically or militarily indicated the motive. No one would be that stupid to command their troops to cross stronger enemy line empty handed and out numbered. I don't get your point about border dispute with India. Tibet itself was not belong to China so if China didn't invade Tibet in 1950 then China and India wouldn't have any dispute in the first place (There would have a dispute between Tibet and India or not). Qing Dynasty conquered China and Tibet. So Tibet was even less related to Qing Dynasty than Mongolia and even China cannot claim Mongolia theirs. Kick out Qing dynasty was the main purpose of Chinese 1911 Revolution but later on China swallowed Manchuria (origin of Qing Dynasty). This is fact. Edited June 25, 2020 by SUZNV typo 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 24, 2020 18 hours ago, frankfurter said: uh, you need very much more than a map. you could start by learning history. but then, why let facts get in your way, right? That's nap not map sweetie. Are those CCP historical 'facts' you speak of? Please enlighten us on the history of Tiananmen square 1989? 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 24, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Marcin2 said: Yeah, up and down, all the time. Last decade Russians did it already twice: once in 2018 or 2019 and once in 2013. Russia simply does not have enough navy combatants to make it more often. I am talking about real activity like constant presence of a few destroyers off the coast from and to Cuban or Venezuelan bases. Like making spotting Chinese Navy from the observation decks, the major tourist attractions of New England and California. There are Russian spy ships that regularly patrol off the east coast of the US. The only country in the world hyperventilating about naval ships near their shores is China. It's a bit much how the CCP ignores the Law of the Sea (which they signed on to) when it comes to waters in East Asia, yet demands their 'right' to sail according to the Law of the Sea everywhere else. Does Russia loose it when the US sails near Russian territory? No, just the usual verbal bla bla bla and ISR response. US does same back to Russia, no big deal. You never going to see the reaction from the US your expecting. Look to the CCP for your freakout. Edited June 24, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 24, 2020 18 hours ago, frankfurter said: China controls the Panama Canal? be careful with your 8 meds daily: such heavy dosage has serious effects upon cognitive abilities. Maybe look up the Chinese company that's currently managing the operations of the canal? But you already know all about this since the CCP has taught you all the accurate historical facts 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ward Smith + 6,615 June 25, 2020 Mongolia. Let's review shall we? The Great Wall of China was "their" border wall with the barbarians from the North (kind of like Trump's wall to the south). You'd think that would clearly constitute the "historical" Chinese border, but no, they've grabbed all of Inner Mongolia, and lust after the rest. Therefore hundreds of miles North of the "historical" Great Wall border. If the US builds its wall, and then goes as far into Mexico as Guadalajara, would that look like an incursion? Inquiring minds want to know. 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jan van Eck + 7,558 MG June 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ward Smith said: they've grabbed all of Inner Mongolia, and lust after the rest. Therefore hundreds of miles North of the "historical" Great Wall border. If the US builds its wall, and then goes as far into Mexico as Guadalajara, would that look like an incursion? Ward, you really do have this pithy way of stating things! 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 25, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ward Smith said: If the US builds its wall, and then goes as far into Mexico as Guadalajara, would that look like an incursion? Inquiring minds want to know. @frankfurter In addition, if the US started ramming and sinking Mexican fishing vessels and leaving the fishermen to die in the Gulf of Mexico, would that be considered normal acceptable behavior? https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1526701/vietnam-airs-video-chinese-ship-sinking-fishing-boat-south-china-sea https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/philippines-backs-vietnam-china-sinks-fishing-boat-200409022328432.html Edited June 25, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 25, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Marcin2 said: US population was 4 million and GB was 10.5 million in 1790 so there was disparity but not that much. Population has almost noting to do with power projection. If it did India and China would have been the superpowers for hundreds of years, and still would be. A large population needs to be taken care of and power projection depends on net resources, not gross resources. Just like a paycheck, it's all in the net. Edited June 25, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff June 25, 2020 12 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Stop the blatant lies. Those treaties, agreements, proclamations were not with China. China had not CONQUERED Tibet yet. Here is reality: IF water flows towards the Indian Ocean: It is not China's. Period. Under no circumstances should it be Chinese conquered Tibeten Territory. There, solved all the border problems. Uh, you should learn history. 1906. India was a colony under British rule. Britain and China signed a treaty to agree Tibet was part of China. Britain immediately set out thereafter to intrude into China and place lands under Brits control. Brits were instrumental to weaken China, declare Tibet independence, and fortify Tibet with arms. All done in violation of the treaty. China has never recognised Brits or India claim to the lands of Tibet, nor Tibet independence. The McMahon line is unilateral, in violation of the treaty, and disputed since. Since 1906, no further treaties have been signed by China respecting Tibet or border. Forward to today, China has agreed with India for the LAC. If India were to accept the LAC as the border, the entire dispute could be resolved in a few days, and the 2 countries could bury their hatchets and focus upon trade. But a certain foreign power will fight this tooth and nail, to ensure divide and conquer, to ensure its own power can dominate the world. That foreign imperialist wants desperately to seek China and India waste their national treasuries and peoples. That imperialist knows, if India and China were to cooperate, this would decrease the power of the imperialist down to a 2nd world level. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff June 25, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 5:47 AM, ronwagn said: You seem to forget that we have allowed China to control the Panama Canal, which we built at great cost in blood and money. Blood due to malaria deaths of workers. The Panama Canal is open to the whole world as far as I know, and has been except in world wars and a Panamanian Revolt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal https://pancanal.com/eng/general/canal-faqs/watershed.html China does not own or run any part of the Panama Canal. It is managed and run by the ACP, an authority appointed by the President and approved by the Assembly. The Board is entirely Panamanian. Please take your meds, ignorance, hatred elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 25, 2020 55 minutes ago, frankfurter said: https://pancanal.com/eng/general/canal-faqs/watershed.html China does not own or run any part of the Panama Canal. It is managed and run by the ACP, an authority appointed by the President and approved by the Assembly. The Board is entirely Panamanian. Please take your meds, ignorance, hatred elsewhere. 😍 As usual sweetie you seek to obfuscate and deceive, are you sure you took YOUR meds today? Your memory seems a bit fuzzy... https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/07/the-panama-canal-could-become-the-center-of-the-u-s-china-trade-war/ 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 25, 2020 3 hours ago, frankfurter said: Uh, you should learn history. 1906. India was a colony under British rule. Britain and China signed a treaty to agree Tibet was part of China. Britain immediately set out thereafter to intrude into China and place lands under Brits control. Brits were instrumental to weaken China, declare Tibet independence, and fortify Tibet with arms. All done in violation o Take your own advice. Tibet was free in 1906. Or if you wish to argue that it was under the rule of the MANCHU people. Not Han Chinese people. Nothing was signed with China as China did not exist. China INVADED and CONQUERED Tibet in 1950/51. Just as China invaded and took Inner Mongolia, Xinxiang etc after the Manchu people's Qing Dynasty subjugation of the Chinese people fell apart and Republic of China rose. In fact, you could argue(if you were ever honest in your life) that Tibet was independent until 1959. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff June 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said: 😍 As usual sweetie you seek to obfuscate and deceive, are you sure you took YOUR meds today? Your memory seems a bit fuzzy... https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/07/the-panama-canal-could-become-the-center-of-the-u-s-china-trade-war/ The legal position is clear and stated clearly above. Nothing in your article reference states China controls any part of the canal. The article does state China will invest in projects, which is no different than the US or any other country investing in projects elsewhere. Don't know why you contest the legal position, but you are what you are, I suppose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff June 25, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Take your own advice. Tibet was free in 1906. Or if you wish to argue that it was under the rule of the MANCHU people. Not Han Chinese people. Nothing was signed with China as China did not exist. China INVADED and CONQUERED Tibet in 1950/51. Just as China invaded and took Inner Mongolia, Xinxiang etc after the Manchu people's Qing Dynasty subjugation of the Chinese people fell apart and Republic of China rose. In fact, you could argue(if you were ever honest in your life) that Tibet was independent until 1959. Tibet free in 1906? China did not exist? You have certainly a warped view of history. Impossible to have a rational conversation with someone having such a view. Regardless, Tibet is now part of China, whatever your view. The LAC divides China/India and the LAC is the reality today. If India were to accept the LAC as the border, all would be resolved very quickly and peacefully. And, now you accuse me of dishonesty. You simply cannot espouse anything without smearing people. tsk tsk. This is indicative of someone with a serious problem. Edited June 25, 2020 by frankfurter 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, frankfurter said: Tibet free in 1906? China did not exist? You have certainly a warped view of history. Impossible to have a rational conversation with someone having such a view. Regardless, Tibet is now part of China, whatever your view. The LAC divides China/India and the LAC is the reality today. If India were to accept the LAC as the border, all would be resolved very quickly and peacefully. And, now you accuse me of dishonesty. You simply cannot espouse anything without smearing people. tsk tsk. This is indicative of someone with a serious problem. 😍 Soooo, first India should honor the China/British LAC that never existed since Tibet was an independent country at the time. Now it’s India should just shut up and accept China’s current determination of where the LAC is? Meds hunny bunny meds. BTW, it’s “you are who you are” not “you are what you are.” You guys might want to hack Google again so you can update Baidu translate’s servers! Kisses 😘 Edited June 25, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan Warnick + 6,100 June 25, 2020 7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Take your own advice. Tibet was free in 1906. Or if you wish to argue that it was under the rule of the MANCHU people. Not Han Chinese people. Nothing was signed with China as China did not exist. China INVADED and CONQUERED Tibet in 1950/51. Just as China invaded and took Inner Mongolia, Xinxiang etc after the Manchu people's Qing Dynasty subjugation of the Chinese people fell apart and Republic of China rose. In fact, you could argue(if you were ever honest in your life) that Tibet was independent until 1959. Chengdu, in Sichuan Province, was the gateway to Tibet when I lived there for 9+ years, and worked at the Shuangliu Airport. Myself and another on-site rep used to find it very interesting to watch from the ramp when they rotated fresh troops into/out of Tibet by air each spring and fall. Over 100,000 troops were rotated twice a year to keep the 1 million strong Chinese Army "fresh" in and around Tibet. My That was in the 1990-1999 years. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 25, 2020 7 hours ago, frankfurter said: Tibet free in 1906? China did not exist? You have certainly a warped view of history. Impossible to have a rational conversation with someone having such a view. Regardless, Tibet is now part of China, whatever your view. The LAC divides China/India and the LAC is the reality today. If India were to accept the LAC as the border, all would be resolved very quickly and peacefully. And, now you accuse me of dishonesty. You simply cannot espouse anything without smearing people. tsk tsk. This is indicative of someone with a serious problem. So, everyone in the CCP play fantasy land that Qing empire were Chinese and not Manchu.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So according to your "logic" the Mongol invasion and rape of China were also Chinese 🤣🤣🤣 So, you should then have zero problem in claiming the British Invasion and concquering of much of China are also Chinese. May as well say the Japanese invasion and conquering of the Manchu people and much of the Coast of Current day China are also Chinese... Damn, you Chinese really know how to get around. You are true mongrels... So why the love for "han identity"..... 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ward Smith + 6,615 June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: So, everyone in the CCP play fantasy land that Qing empire were Chinese and not Manchu.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA So according to your "logic" the Mongol invasion and rape of China were also Chinese 🤣🤣🤣 So, you should then have zero problem in claiming the British Invasion and concquering of much of China are also Chinese. May as well say the Japanese invasion and conquering of the Manchu people and much of the Coast of Current day China are also Chinese... Damn, you Chinese really know how to get around. You are true mongrels... So why the love for "han identity"..... So basically, since Great Britain conquered them before, by that logic all of Great Britain including its Commonwealth belong to the CCP, since being conquered is just as good as conquering, to the CCP logician. 🤓 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff June 26, 2020 12 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said: 😍 Soooo, first India should honor the China/British LAC that never existed since Tibet was an independent country at the time. Now it’s India should just shut up and accept China’s current determination of where the LAC is? Meds hunny bunny meds. BTW, it’s “you are who you are” not “you are what you are.” You guys might want to hack Google again so you can update Baidu translate’s servers! Kisses 😘 uh, 'what' seems more appropriate in your case. In 1962, Indian soldiers were ordered into China-occupied areas with orders to shoot to kill. In the ensuing war, China repelled India and drove the retreating troops far into India. At the end of the war, China returned the occupied lands to India. India accepted. If China were expansionist as you claim, why return the territory to India? After all, per your standards, the victor is entitled to own the conquered lands. The result is the LAC. At the time, both sides were reluctant to accept the LAC, but it was and remains the best option as a base for settlement. The LAC gained legal recognition in China-India agreements signed in 1993 and 1996, thus rendering the LAC as the de facto, but not de jure, border. The LAC has held for nearly 60 years. India loses nothing by refusing a de jure LAC, and gains everything by accepting. So why refuse? A certain imperial power is using India for divide and rule. This suits India's current 'leaders', for the moment, as they wish to make India fully Hindu and expel all others. To accomplish this, they need a scapegoat to create a national threat, which suits the imperial power too. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, frankfurter said: If China were expansionist as you claim, why return the territory to India? After all, per your standards, the victor is entitled to own the conquered lands. 😍 Humm, you’re not the same ole Franky I remember now are you... your CCP owners must have swapped the old Franky for a new one! I’ve never claimed any victor is entitled to any conquered lands. The US ‘conquered’ both Afghanistan and Iraq but at no point was the US entitled to any piece of territory in either country as they are for the Iraqi and Afghani people. As usual for the CCP, projection is your only form of interaction. Please, enlighten me on what my standards are and how you would even know what those are? Am I to assume those concentration camps your CCP built out west are to ‘your standards’? 🤗 Edited June 26, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD June 26, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: So, everyone in the CCP play fantasy land that Qing empire were Chinese and not Manchu.... Whenever I say the last emperor of China wasn’t Chinese, people always give me the strangest look. More on the Aussie infiltration- https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-australia-53188553 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-26/australian-lawmaker-ousted-from-party-amid-report-of-china-links Looks like there’s a new alliance structure forming, it’s about time. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/mps-from-eight-countries-form-new-global-coalition-to-counter-china-20200604-p54zqj.html Edited June 26, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said: Whenever I say the last emperor of China wasn’t Chinese, people always give me the strangest look. Actually, last emperor of China was Chinese. In the MING dynasty of 1644... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 467 July 1, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 6:16 AM, Jan van Eck said: The Chinese will continue to push that border, line of control or no line of control, until they reach the headwaters of the Indus River, which is the real goal. That is another hundred miles to the South. China might be filled with flood and rain water enough to last for a few years....... But something else turned up: On 6/25/2020 at 3:12 AM, Strangelovesurfing said: Please enlighten us on the history of Tiananmen square 1989? Pardon, I know you are not asking me ............ but according to some one cent sources, Tiananmen Square Event is non other than a mob requesting a country with population of 1.2 billion to go democratic by having voting system in place........... "One person one vote. Make your vote count!" So said the slogan............. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surrept33 + 609 st July 2, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 6:16 PM, Jan van Eck said: Given the amount of mis-information about that Border and the "line of control," I would recite as follows. The original Border, between India and Tibet, was marked as "unknown" on the maps of the era, as nobody actually went up into that very rugged terrain, and nobody lived there. So you had this undemarcated border. Nobody much cared. The next step was a drafting of a "Border Map" which showed a line well to the North of current positions. That one was agreed to by the British and the Chinese. Then the Chinese annexed Tibet, by force of arms of course, and the Tibetan monarch or whatever you call that fellow fled, taking up residence in India, and the Chinese decided that they needed to build a military road between two points some hundreds of miles apart, and the best route took it through INdia. So, they just built it, and annexed the Indian territory. India did not even find out ab out the road and the annexation until about two years later, which shows you how remote the terrain is. The Indians responded by putting up various posts, lightly manned, strung out like some row of pearls across the terrain. At some point they got into a shooting match with the Chinese Army and got their asses kicked. Now the Chinese moved the border line unilaterally even further to the South. More border posts were erected and manned. New maps were drawn up, and it is uncontested that the entirety of the Galwan River lay within India. The Chinese again started encroaching by moving a post at a time further South, just slicing off little bits of Indian Territory. India responded by putting up a post at the headwaters of the Galwan, and the Chinese surrounded it, opened fire on it, the Indians sent a supply column to relieve it, the column was beaten back, and the surrounmded post was massacred, everyone there shot dead, no survivors. So, once again the border was forced further South. The string of these border posts, typically over 20 miles apart, is called the "Line of Actual Control," or LAC. In reality, there is no border, it is fluid, it is wherever there is a man with a gun to enforce it. The Border does not exist because the Chinese idea of a Border is something agreed to, but that becomes the starting point for further negotiations or gunfire to move the Border to some new point. For example, at one time the Border between Taiwan and the mainland (Red) China was just off the coast of the mainland, and some islands, specifically Quemoy and Matsu, were territory of Taiwan. Well, the Chinese started shelling those islands in order to push the taiwanese off them, and the shelling went on for a year or so, the Chinese did not give a crap about the Border or world opinion or much of anything else. That is the nature of the Communists. When in doubt, take it and kill the locals. The Chinese will continue to push that border, line of control or no line of control, until they reach the headwaters of the Indus River, which is the real goal. That is another hundred miles to the South. They will kill anyone who gets in their way. Harbor no illusions about the Chinese Communists. Well said. In recent years, this area of land has been incredibly strategic to China, India, and Pakistan because of the construction of this new highway, which allows transport of a lot of raw materials from Xinjiang: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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