COVID is real now

[BradleyPNW + 282]

All they had to do was put a presidential seal on it to get Baby Trump to wear it?

 

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

That's a damn good look!

😊

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Now if he had done it from the very beginning, his polling numbers would be higher, and I would be giving him credit for responding quickly and decisively.  The decision to call it a hoax wasn't just counter productive, it was also dumb.  Now I'm waiting for the Trump supporters who are telling everyone else how they're sheep  to change their opinions because, after all, they're not sheep and don't just toe the party line.  

EDIT: For future reference, it's not a good idea to copy and paste what Trump's opinions happen to be at any given time.  He changes his mind quite often and makes anyone who was trumpeting his older opinions look kinda silly.  Now if my hypothesis is correct, the constant "COVID is a hoax" threads that's been popping up here for the last month or two will stop.  

Edited July 11, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[BradleyPNW + 282]

By tomorrow Donald will be complaining the Fake News libruhls didn't thank him for inventing the face mask. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

That's a damn good look!

😊

Indeed Dapper Dan comes to mind, next stop a role model for Antifia. Go figure!

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

3 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Now if he had done it from the very beginning, his polling numbers would be higher, and I would be giving him credit for responding quickly and decisively.  The decision to call it a hoax wasn't just counter productive, it was also dumb.  Now I'm waiting for the Trump supporters who are telling everyone else how they're sheep  to change their opinions because, after all, they're not sheep and don't just toe the party line.  

EDIT: For future reference, it's not a good idea to copy and paste what Trump's opinions happen to be at any given time.  He changes his mind quite often and makes anyone who was trumpeting his older opinions look kinda silly.  Now if my hypothesis is correct, the constant "COVID is a hoax" threads that's been popping up here for the last month or two will stop.  

So, he should have been wearing a mask while Fauci and the admiral playing surgeon general were saying not to wear face masks because they were useless? Right about then? But yeah, Trump can't change his mind and neither can his advisors. 

Fix your skirt your TDS is showing

[Zhong Lu + 845]

See? It's exactly BS like this that makes me think you're actually a secret Russian troll whose purpose is to sow division and chaos in American politics by repeating endless shit.  "It's always someone else's fault."  Online Trump supporters in a nutshell.  Which makes me wonder: are they actual Trump supporters or are they secret Russian trolls? Because no one can possibly repeat and believe such BS endlessly unless they had some ulterior motive.  

The other possibility is that you're a paid troll by some PAC working for the Republican party.  Though most of those PAC people who are writing this shit (Democrat and Republican) are on more popular and frequented sites.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

See? It's exactly BS like this that makes me think you're actually a secret Russian troll whose purpose is to sow division and chaos in American politics by repeating endless shit.  "It's always someone else's fault."  Online Trump supporters in a nutshell.  Which makes me wonder: are they actual Trump supporters or are they secret Russian trolls? Because no one can possibly repeat and believe such BS endlessly unless they had some ulterior motive.  

The other possibility is that you're a paid troll by some PAC working for the Republican party.  Though most of those PAC people who are writing this shit (Democrat and Republican) are on more popular and frequented sites.  

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

Most of us on the conservative side had realized the masks are not useless back in February. The question remains whether you are pursuing herd immunity or trying to extinguish the virus. I think the herd immunity people should continue doing as they wish to risk transmission while those who want to avoid it wear as good a mask as they can obtain.

The main transmission mode of CV19 is via aerosol - as opposed to WHO's insistence that it is ballistic droplets and touching hand or other fomites to your lips or eyes. The masks don't do much for aerosol projection as the tiny drops remain in the air long after the person who emitted them is gone. They are so numerous that curtailing them by 50-70% with a mask makes no difference. Which we have known since German experiments showed that back in Feb. So social distancing is a good substitute for masking for ballistic droplets as their range is short and duration is short as well, as gravity cleans them out of the air.

But aerosols explain the transmission in enclosed spaces that has been repeatedly observed and mentioned here, whether social distancing is practiced or not. In that case, the mask reduces the viral infection load to the wearer, but not doing much for others as aerosol projection, though much reduced, is not eliminated, its range not shortened as it is the entirety of the enclosed space. On the USS Roosevelt wearing a mask lowered infection rates from 81 or 83% to 57% on prolonged repeated exposures for the wearer. Not a night and day difference, so no need to mandate such a thing. But it does contribute to shifting the prevalence to milder cases and lowers your chances of getting it for casual exposure. But it is not as meaningfully protective of other people as the initial statistics from the German study indicated earlier.

Trying to combine the stats into something useful, the wearing of a mask on both carrier and naive was shown to lower transmission rates by 90%. Estimates for R0 in crowded enclosed spaces (airplane cabins, open floor offices, subways in particular, and bars) are on the order of 8 to 15. Thus lowering the R0 in proportion to 0.8 to 1.5. Would slow the transmission but not kill it off. A recipe for maintaining the problem.

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

The other possibility is that you're a paid troll by some PAC working for the Republican party.  Though most of those PAC people who are writing this shit (Democrat and Republican) are on more popular and frequented sites.  

Man, this is some seriously deranged stuff.  Ward may be strident in his views, but "paid troll" he is not.  Do try to lighten up.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

11 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The question remains whether you are pursuing herd immunity or trying to extinguish the virus.

Realistically, there is no herd immunity, and there is not going to be any development of herd immunity.  The reason I say this with some certitude is that this is viral matter that will dynamically alter itself in order to replicate and survive in its hosts.  Once the virus is separated from is natural host  (apparently, the bats) it is going to do what it can to survive, as it jumps around from host to host, remembering that the idea of this virus is to kill its new hosts.  Obviously, if the virus is efficient in killing, it too shall die - and that is against the Prime Directive of all viral mater, which is to survive. 

The mask protects other people in the event you are infected and you sneeze or cough.  It is not protecting You from others  (OK, maybe a little bit).  That said, remember that you can be infected and not be infectious - all you have to do is not sneeze or cough.  Then the infection remains inside you, in the struggle with your immune system, which either beats back the viral matter and kills it off (and you live) or it does not (and you die).  Those masks do not really protect you as they do not provide a good seal around the nose, so when you suck air in, that air will flow around the nose seal  instead of through the filter material.  If you want a good seal, then you need a sea-diving mask with air regulator, full face, and some charcoal filter device on the air hose ends.  But nobody seems to be making those. 

This is a nasty killer virus and it will not be the last that the Chinese send our way.  The best collective solution is complete severance from China, as long as they insist on doing weird things with bats and pandolins and whatever, and of course shut down that virus hatching lab in Wuhan, as the controls seem unreliable.  The Chinese do not want to do that, fine, then let them do their thing on mainland China and everyone else stays off the place.  Sealed borders do work. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

10 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Realistically, there is no herd immunity, and there is not going to be any development of herd immunity.  The reason I say this with some certitude is that this is viral matter that will dynamically alter itself in order to replicate and survive in its hosts.  Once the virus is separated from is natural host  (apparently, the bats) it is going to do what it can to survive, as it jumps around from host to host, remembering that the idea of this virus is to kill its new hosts.  Obviously, if the virus is efficient in killing, it too shall die - and that is against the Prime Directive of all viral mater, which is to survive. 

The mask protects other people in the event you are infected and you sneeze or cough.  It is not protecting You from others  (OK, maybe a little bit).  That said, remember that you can be infected and not be infectious - all you have to do is not sneeze or cough.  Then the infection remains inside you, in the struggle with your immune system, which either beats back the viral matter and kills it off (and you live) or it does not (and you die).  Those masks do not really protect you as they do not provide a good seal around the nose, so when you suck air in, that air will flow around the nose seal  instead of through the filter material.  If you want a good seal, then you need a sea-diving mask with air regulator, full face, and some charcoal filter device on the air hose ends.  But nobody seems to be making those. 

This is a nasty killer virus and it will not be the last that the Chinese send our way.  The best collective solution is complete severance from China, as long as they insist on doing weird things with bats and pandolins and whatever, and of course shut down that virus hatching lab in Wuhan, as the controls seem unreliable.  The Chinese do not want to do that, fine, then let them do their thing on mainland China and everyone else stays off the place.  Sealed borders do work. 

The protection from the ballistic droplets that masks do provide, is also provided by distancing, combining the two does not necessarily make for a significant gain in suppressing transmission. Aerosol transmission is not really attenuated by masks that well. (1) you produce aerosol in regular breathing, speaking and more when yelling, no cough necessary (it is for ballistic droplets). (2) your mask reduces your aerosol output, but unlike ballistic droplets that a mask can curtail from reaching more than 1 ft around you, the aerosol microdroplets remain suspended in the air for hours and travel with the rest of the other carrier's aerosolized virus in the enclosed space. (3) so a mask does not reduce your chances of infecting someone with aerosol virus, but reduces the environmental viral load in enclosed spaces - which is insignificant, but it does protect you by reducing the viral load with which you would be infected.

The best way to deal with aerosol transmission is ventilation or filtration (HEPA)

Another issue is that we still don't have complete prevalence information because many infected people develop few antibodies because their main immune response is by T Cells. Recent German studies have shown memory T cells with :"impressions" for CV19 (the test is similar to a TB test) in heavily exposed patients testing negative for antibodies. In these cases, 75% were T cell positive for CV19. Which confers immunity as well.

There has yet to be a CV19 mutation that changes the S spike protein that serves to inject the virus into the ACE 2 receptor and into the cell. It is the antibodies for that spike protein (among others in the case of traditional vaccines) that are neutralizing antibodies. Without that S spike protein, it can not be a CV19 virus as it would not infect cells. Thus your expectation of mutations resistant to herd immunity is unlikely, as those antibodies and T cell impressions include the S spike protein as a target.

Though the CV19 virus does have multiple attachment mechanisms like porphyrin and the other one obtained from its HIV sequences in addition to the S spike protein. It only has the S spike protein to inject its RNA into the cell.

 

[Yoshiro Kamamura + 274]

90 percent of US coronavirus deaths could have been avoided if measures had been taken just two weeks earlier

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/493128-90-percent-of-coronavirus-deaths-may-have-been

That means during the two months Trump lost by fantasizing about how the virus will go away by itself and how it's just a hoax, or slightly worse flu. 

[surrept33 + 612]

11 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Now if he had done it from the very beginning, his polling numbers would be higher, and I would be giving him credit for responding quickly and decisively.  The decision to call it a hoax wasn't just counter productive, it was also dumb.  Now I'm waiting for the Trump supporters who are telling everyone else how they're sheep  to change their opinions because, after all, they're not sheep and don't just toe the party line.  

EDIT: For future reference, it's not a good idea to copy and paste what Trump's opinions happen to be at any given time.  He changes his mind quite often and makes anyone who was trumpeting his older opinions look kinda silly.  Now if my hypothesis is correct, the constant "COVID is a hoax" threads that's been popping up here for the last month or two will stop.  

In some respects, it's an aspect of representative democracy. A lot of people's opinions tend to just reflect whatever their leader's opinion (and tends to percolate from there in more local communities. i.e, there is sociological pressure to "believe" what their friends/family do)

For example, notice how suddenly 40% more self-identified Republicans suddenly became anti-free trade overnight during the 2016 primary/election. Traditionally, free trade/free markets have been a very Republican position. It's people joining the wrecking ball that used to be the Trump train.

Edited July 12, 2020 by surrept33

[crazy trip + 90]

 Not mentioned in this summation particularly referencing the proper fitting of masks, is the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bearded human to properly fit his or her mask.
 So beware the bearded troll !!!, and the rest of humanity who arguably are not following proper effective use mask wearing and disposal procedures.

——————————————————
 My summary of all this is that, first, we don’t have definitive evidence to know exactly what the effect of mask wearing is in every setting. But we can make some reasonable extrapolations from the data we have. First, for hospital workers, they really should be using the N95 masks, and surgical masks if the former are not available. For the public the cloth masks may be of some benefit, both in spreading and receiving the virus. However, the benefit is likely to be modest. It should not be considered full protection, but just a way to reduce the chance of spread a little bit.

But I think perhaps the biggest factor in terms of the general public use of face masks is the intention to treat consideration – how are people actually using their face masks. The data shows that the modest decrease in risk of spread is only there if people use their masks consistently and properly. When they don’t, what little protection there is vanishes.

Now I am going to introduce some personal anecdotal information, through my observations over the last two months. I am still seeing patients, with maximal precautions, which includes everyone who comes into the clinic wearing a face mask. I have also been deliberately observant when I am out in the public (for essential services). What I have observed is most people not using their masks properly. Many people have the mask below their nose, which is essentially useless. Or the mask is on loosely. But far and away the greatest violation of protocol is that people touch their mask or temporarily remove their mask, and frequently adjust their mask. This is understandable. Non health-care providers are not used to wearing masks. They were not trained how to use them. The masks can be uncomfortable, and whenever you cannot touch your face, it itches. So people are constantly fidgeting with their masks.

This may be worse than useless. We now have data of virus deposition on the outside of face masks, so touching your mask is a good way to spread the virus. Also, there is the “false sense of security” issue. People may feel they don’t have to be a rigorous with social distancing because they are wearing a mask.

So here, then, is my bottom line. Sure, wear face masks whenever you are out in public or have to be exposed to other people – but wear the mask properly, don’t touch or adjust it, don’t take it off or lower it even briefly. Further, understand this is only modest protection. It may statistically help reduce the spread of the pandemic, but it is not total protection. So you still have to adhere to strict recommendations to avoid spread – physical distancing and hand washing being the most important. Also, if you are sick, you can apparently cough the virus through your mask, so still cough into your elbow and not at other people or onto the environment. But most importantly, if you think you may be sick, self-isolate. A mask is not adequate protection for others.

So wear the mask properly, but act as if the mask does not work.

[Hotone + 412]

 

15 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Realistically, there is no herd immunity, and there is not going to be any development of herd immunity.  The reason I say this with some certitude is that this is viral matter that will dynamically alter itself in order to replicate and survive in its hosts.  Once the virus is separated from is natural host  (apparently, the bats) it is going to do what it can to survive, as it jumps around from host to host, remembering that the idea of this virus is to kill its new hosts.  Obviously, if the virus is efficient in killing, it too shall die - and that is against the Prime Directive of all viral mater, which is to survive. 

The mask protects other people in the event you are infected and you sneeze or cough.  It is not protecting You from others  (OK, maybe a little bit).  That said, remember that you can be infected and not be infectious - all you have to do is not sneeze or cough.  Then the infection remains inside you, in the struggle with your immune system, which either beats back the viral matter and kills it off (and you live) or it does not (and you die).  Those masks do not really protect you as they do not provide a good seal around the nose, so when you suck air in, that air will flow around the nose seal  instead of through the filter material.  If you want a good seal, then you need a sea-diving mask with air regulator, full face, and some charcoal filter device on the air hose ends.  But nobody seems to be making those. 

This is a nasty killer virus and it will not be the last that the Chinese send our way.  The best collective solution is complete severance from China, as long as they insist on doing weird things with bats and pandolins and whatever, and of course shut down that virus hatching lab in Wuhan, as the controls seem unreliable.  The Chinese do not want to do that, fine, then let them do their thing on mainland China and everyone else stays off the place.  Sealed borders do work. 

Lighten up .. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Hotone

[BradleyPNW + 282]

Mask wearing and social distancing was the most basic level of leadership our country needed. We could have selected a random name out of jar and we would have had better leadership than Donald. 

We don't need to prove masks are effective before we wear the masks because wearing a mask is a simple low cost behavior with potential high rewards (e.g. Taiwan.) Donald turned mask wearing into a divisive symbol because he thought mask wearers wore masks as a personal insult to him. The guy is totally deranged.

The only reason the pathetic boob put on a mask is because he's getting his ass handed to him in Florida and Texas as their COVID cases soar. After all, the dirtbag tried to hold a million-man rally in Tulsa and followed that up with another public event in South Dakota. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

16 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Indeed Dapper Dan comes to mind, next stop a role model for Antifia. Go figure!

You talk so much about Antifa that I'm starting to wonder if you have a black hoodie and a skateboard in the closet. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

6 minutes ago, BradleyPNW said:

Mask wearing and social distancing was the most basic level of leadership our country needed. We could have selected a random name out of jar and we would have had better leadership than Donald. 

We don't need to prove masks are effective before we wear the masks because wearing a mask is a simple low cost behavior with potential high rewards (e.g. Taiwan.) Donald turned mask wearing into a divisive symbol because he thought mask wearers wore masks as a personal insult to him. The guy is totally deranged.

The only reason the pathetic boob put on a mask is because he's getting his ass handed to him in Florida and Texas as their COVID cases soar. After all, the dirtbag tried to hold a million-man rally in Tulsa and followed that up with another public event in South Dakota. 

Try reading @0R0and @crazy trip posts directly above. Try to pull your head out of your TDS while you're at it. For 99% of the great unwashed, mask wearing is a fomite concentrator! They don't change them, wash them or disinfect them properly, so when they are positive, they're just gathering more and more viral load into that mask, and their hands as they constantly touch and fidget with them. Meanwhile they've got the false sense of security that the mask is doing any good at all. 

Taiwan isn't doing well because of masks, they're doing well because they're an island and have an intrusive government. Here's what happens when you land on the island. They hand you an HTC phone on arrival. You must carry it with you all times. That's your tracker app, and you'll be immediately deported if you "forget" it. That and not masks is why their case load is so small. 

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

10 minutes ago, BradleyPNW said:

pathetic boob

How a man runs his life is up to each man's individual purview of what constitutes a man. Where I come from, no matter which party the president represents, we paid tribute to the office of the Commander-in-Chief. 

I can tell from your posts that you're proud to be a lawyer, and that you feel strongly you're an intellectual with a keen ear to the ground. By saying things like the above, you are showing us a side of you that I doubt seriously you wish to show. The anonymity of the Internet allows such behavior and, like I said, your life is yours to run. 

As someone who has actually learned a few things from your posts--despite being on the opposite side of the political fence--I would suggest to you that you will get quite a bit farther by using polite language. If you argued in a courtroom, or even just took depositions or wrote briefs or a few lines in a Writ of Mandamus, I doubt seriously that you would have stooped to these levels. 

And believe it or not, the people on this forum are just as important as those people. In fact, they are those people. On the Internet, we are Everyman. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

A person deserves respect because of what he or she does and not because of their position.  America is not some aristocratic  country where we worship a president or king just because he's president or king.

Donald Trump is like the combination of every dipshit boss you've ever had.  And consequently, he deserves the same amount of respect.  And speaking of tone of language, if Donald Trump had behaved in a court room like the way he'd behave on Twitter, he'd have been thrown out long ago. 

SHIT flows downhill from the top.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

6 hours ago, surrept33 said:

In some respects, it's an aspect of representative democracy. A lot of people's opinions tend to just reflect whatever their leader's opinion (and tends to percolate from there in more local communities. i.e, there is sociological pressure to "believe" what their friends/family do)

For example, notice how suddenly 40% more self-identified Republicans suddenly became anti-free trade overnight during the 2016 primary/election. Traditionally, free trade/free markets have been a very Republican position. It's people joining the wrecking ball that used to be the Trump train.

I doubt most of them cared much either way.  Despite claims that Republicans support X or Dems support Y, only the committed ideologues (who have brainwashed themselves) particularly care.  Hence the speed of these shifts.  

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

37 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

 Where I come from, no matter which party the president represents, we paid tribute to the office of the Commander-in-Chief.

Thankfully we don't all come from where you come from.

 

I can feel free to call a spade a spade.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

13 hours ago, 0R0 said:

Most of us on the conservative side had realized the masks are not useless back in February. The question remains whether you are pursuing herd immunity or trying to extinguish the virus. I think the herd immunity people should continue doing as they wish to risk transmission while those who want to avoid it wear as good a mask as they can obtain.

The main transmission mode of CV19 is via aerosol - as opposed to WHO's insistence that it is ballistic droplets and touching hand or other fomites to your lips or eyes. The masks don't do much for aerosol projection as the tiny drops remain in the air long after the person who emitted them is gone. They are so numerous that curtailing them by 50-70% with a mask makes no difference. Which we have known since German experiments showed that back in Feb. So social distancing is a good substitute for masking for ballistic droplets as their range is short and duration is short as well, as gravity cleans them out of the air.

But aerosols explain the transmission in enclosed spaces that has been repeatedly observed and mentioned here, whether social distancing is practiced or not. In that case, the mask reduces the viral infection load to the wearer, but not doing much for others as aerosol projection, though much reduced, is not eliminated, its range not shortened as it is the entirety of the enclosed space. On the USS Roosevelt wearing a mask lowered infection rates from 81 or 83% to 57% on prolonged repeated exposures for the wearer. Not a night and day difference, so no need to mandate such a thing. But it does contribute to shifting the prevalence to milder cases and lowers your chances of getting it for casual exposure. But it is not as meaningfully protective of other people as the initial statistics from the German study indicated earlier.

Trying to combine the stats into something useful, the wearing of a mask on both carrier and naive was shown to lower transmission rates by 90%. Estimates for R0 in crowded enclosed spaces (airplane cabins, open floor offices, subways in particular, and bars) are on the order of 8 to 15. Thus lowering the R0 in proportion to 0.8 to 1.5. Would slow the transmission but not kill it off. A recipe for maintaining the problem.

 

I can't see any evidence of herd immunity kicking in yet.

Almost any plan that was stuck to has worked better than constantly changing plans, which is the same as having No plan.

Failure of leadership (not just trump but mostly trump) caused this nightmare in the US.

When the doctors, governors, POTUS and the news are all saying different things there can be no effective plan because everyone is so distrustful of everyone else. 

55% of people wearing masks and mostly staying home, 45% going to trump rallies and bloody Disney is going to do absolutely nothing (no herd, no extinguishing). Riots didn't help I'm sure but that is still failure of effective leadership (distribute the blame however you wish).

The US needs to quickly resolve internal infighting problems, come up with a plan, stick with the plan, and deliver a unified message to the populace so they know clearly what to do.  Or... just wait until everyone gets infected and about 0.3% of the population dies.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Enthalpic

[BradleyPNW + 282]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Try reading @0R0and @crazy trip posts directly above. Try to pull your head out of your TDS while you're at it. For 99% of the great unwashed, mask wearing is a fomite concentrator! They don't change them, wash them or disinfect them properly, so when they are positive, they're just gathering more and more viral load into that mask, and their hands as they constantly touch and fidget with them. Meanwhile they've got the false sense of security that the mask is doing any good at all. 

Taiwan isn't doing well because of masks, they're doing well because they're an island and have an intrusive government. Here's what happens when you land on the island. They hand you an HTC phone on arrival. You must carry it with you all times. That's your tracker app, and you'll be immediately deported if you "forget" it. That and not masks is why their case load is so small. 

I'm happy to clarify for you: your boy couldn't step over the lowest bar. He couldn't even make it to the next step of communicating how to properly wear a mask. Maybe because...
 

Edited July 12, 2020 by BradleyPNW