Tesla Begins Construction Of World’s Largest Energy Storage Facility

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:28 PM, Monk said:

For some perspective: ( 

According to the California ISO Department of Market Monitoring’s (DMM), in CA ISO region to which PG&E belongs:

"Total wholesale market costs: 

The total estimated wholesale cost of serving load in 2019 was about $8.8 billion or about $41/MWh. This represents a decrease of about 17 percent from wholesale costs of about $49/MWh in 2018. The decrease in electricity prices was driven mainly by a decrease in spot market natural gas prices of about 10 percent.  After normalizing for changes in natural gas prices and greenhouse gas compliance costs, DMM estimates that total wholesale energy costs decreased by about 10 percent."

You can read up the whole report here: http://www.caiso.com/Documents/2019AnnualReportonMarketIssuesandPerformance.pdf

 

For comparison in ERCOT (texas):  Day-ahead, around-the-clock wholesale electricity prices averaged $38/MWh in ERCOT in 2019.

 

If PG&E is charging 24c per kwh retail in SF - Don't know the whole cost break down is but  it would seem of that only 4.1c per kwh is energy generation related  whether it is solar/wind/hydro/nuclear/natural gas/coal.   

 

But again it would only be a surprise if utilities/cable companies  don't crush your nuts and charge through the nose. They do promise to crush slowly over the decades like a slow boiling of the frog so it won't be noticeable

The capital cost per unit throughput for renewables is about an order of magnitude higher than that of CCGT gas. The costs do not include the capital in the wholesale generation cost figures. Only fuel and maintenance costs. The finance cost for the "green" projects are their main cost, vs. NG or coal for Fossil Fuels. That PG&E can't make electricity at a lower cost than TX is funny. Because it is TX that gets so much of its electricity from Wind.

The rest of the 24c PG&E charges covers the financing costs, which are far larger for its generation capacity and grid.

[Wombat + 1,028]

4 hours ago, Rob Kramer said:

A bit of news California blackouts: It was just last year that CAISO had to issue rolling blackouts due to fire risks in the state. You have to go back to 2001 to find the last time an emergency was declared due to high demand. But hot weather happens a lot; what's different this time?

Today’s CAISO outlook forecasts peak demand above available capacity, so real-time power prices will likely soar. Today’s forecast peak is 44.4 GW while Monday’s is 47.0GW. The all-time record has stood at 50.27GW since July 24, 2006.

https://www.thestreet.com/.amp-utilities/utilities/news/081620?__twitter_impression=true

from this^

HFI Research

@HFI_Research

·

9h

 

Media biases couldn’t be clearer these days. California’s blackout is attributed to renewable energy sources failing because of the state’s desire to get rid of hydrocarbons. But Bloomberg writes that it’s not the state’s fault, it’s the weather! Pathetic.

 

 

 

Energy Blogger

@energy_blogger

Replying to

@HFI_Research

and

@anasalhajji

California Solar facts: Solar Installed Capacity - 14.1 GW ‘May’ Solar Generation - 7 GW Aug data not available yet but above figures should given an idea. Generation Calculation May total generation - 5233GWh (5233 / 24 hrs in a day / 31 days in May) https://

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/renewables_data/solar/index_cms.php

Rob, it just proves the point that California has not invested enough in short-term storage yet, let alone long-term storage. They just starting on the short-term storage, as the article is about, so they obviously going to take their time to address long-term storage. Just serious mismanagement and short-term thinking, nothing to do with cost of renewables. If CCGT so cheap, where is the back-up from that source?

 

[Wombat + 1,028]

14 hours ago, Prometheus1354 said:

I lived in the SF Bay Area for almost 20 years. I moved home (Sacramento) when I changed careers away from Defense electronics to the Water & Wastewater industry.  We have SMUD here in Sac. It's a publicly owned not for profit utility vs PG&E which is traded on the Big board.  PG&E are notorious for pricing charged. They are constantly in trouble with the Bill Mill over it.  They are working their way through the courts over the massive damage caused in the Camp Fire.

Those prices are reflective of previous remarks along with the multi Billon $$$$$$$$$$ fines/damages they have already been hit with an those that will assuredly come in the next cpl. years.  Any 'savings' this results in; will Only find it's way into the coffers of PG&E...

This is how the utililities rig the electricity market (shut down generators on hottest days to send price into the THOUSANDS). They do the same here in Australia. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/16/business/california-blackouts.html

[Mark Potochnik + 8]

I saw a video the other day that made the point. Remember when you used telephone wires?

We are moving to a point where self generation and storage will take over. That will be the trend. Less and less using the grid.Look in areas with rolling blackouts. That will wake you up. Batteries getting cheaper.

Watch for Tesla battery day 9/22/2020.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

5 hours ago, Wombat said:

Rob, it just proves the point that California has not invested enough in short-term storage yet, let alone long-term storage. They just starting on the short-term storage, as the article is about, so they obviously going to take their time to address long-term storage. Just serious mismanagement and short-term thinking, nothing to do with cost of renewables. If CCGT so cheap, where is the back-up from that source?

 

Probably not allowed  (ccgt is nat gas?) Or if the renewables were so expensive they couldnt afford the proper line maintenance and/or battery storage so how could they afford anything else as green gets first spending (the opposite argument would be that green is cheap and rates would be lowest or profits highest and could afford line buildout and storage... but I cant see that as the case with evidence presented). I agree with you that storage would help but it's like putting up the frame of a house not being able to afford a roof and wondering why the drywall is melting from the rain storm. Classic tunnel vision on the Californias part. Sure do It backwards after the system fails. Could have done storage then build out of renewables. Just my opinion. I'm pro fossil fuels so my opinion is clear. 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

2 hours ago, Mark Potochnik said:

I saw a video the other day that made the point. Remember when you used telephone wires?

We are moving to a point where self generation and storage will take over. That will be the trend. Less and less using the grid.Look in areas with rolling blackouts. That will wake you up. Batteries getting cheaper.

Watch for Tesla battery day 9/22/2020.

If batteries are good enough for the price that my be the case in theory for a bit but the system size for electric heat cars and AC is too large for most homes so if they had gas heat and car ya mabey the lines wouldnt do much but after the car comes along or heater no way the average home roof could have that much panels so they'd be back to buying power. Mabey some very short drivers with a solar roof on the car could make it work but these people arnt putting 25,000km per year on their car like others and fuel isnt a big yearly bill so why buy electric car anyway unless that's the one you actually like.

[Chris555 + 8]

On 8/14/2020 at 2:56 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

PG&E will own the facility at its substation in Moss Landing, but the design, construction and maintenance operations will be joint effort both by the San Francisco-based utility and the battery and EV manufacturing giant. 

https://www.power-eng.com/2020/07/29/energy-storage-milestone-pge-tesla-begin-building-730mwh-battery-system/#gref

They are public companies not gov't so they don't have to disclose the financial details. They are building this to make money.

So few being built???  There are numerous battery projects in the works and many more are being announced regularly. 

Hornsdale expansion is even done and you'll be glad to know that they plan on providing synthetic inertia to the Australian grid.

 

Tesla, for one, is being subsidized by billions of taxpayer's dollars, miserable hired propagandist liar. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/13/2020 at 11:03 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Yes the pipes exist but so do the power lines, why is PG&E going to overcharge me for electricity but not for gas? The waste heat just represents another cost component. Steam lines don't exist everywhere and would have to be installed at great expense.

Who said anything about steam lines? 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/13/2020 at 1:15 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Tesla TSLA +4.7% and PG&E recently broke ground on a record-setting energy storage system in Moss Landing (Monterey) California that, once complete, will be the largest such installation in the world. The battery park will be able to dispatch up to 730 megawatt hours (MWh) of energy to the electrical grid at a maximum rate of 182.5 MW for up to four hours using 256 of Tesla’s lithium-ion (Li-ion) Megapacks. Tesla and PG&E will have the option to upgrade Moss Landing’s capacity to bring the system up to 1.2-gigawatt-hours which could, according to Tesla, power every home in San Francisco for six hours.

The facility is expected to come online in 2021

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen/2020/08/13/tesla-begins-construction-of-worlds-largest-energy-storage-facility/#5fd638814fde

Watch the taxes and energy prices soar as the rolling blackouts continue. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:51 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Actually it can power the whole sf bay area for an hour. So we just need about 10x this capacity to handle the whole bay area all through the night. We will have that built by 2030 at the latest. 

It might work in the bay area which requires little air conditioning but Southern California is where most of the population is. They demand lots of air conditioning. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/14/2020 at 10:42 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

The cities are all powered by sufficient electricity so the power lines absolutely do exist. The Moss Landing battery for example is at the location of a very large and very old natural gas power plant that the battery is replacing. It will use the same power lines as the power plant did. 

I would love to see an honest cost comparison to a new natural gas plant. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:08 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Irrelevant to what the cost of battery storage is. The problem is that PG&E is a company and they chose to not spend sufficient funds on network maintenance. The power lines that failed were remote, small, local power lines. It only takes one spark. But they also weren't the only ones. One of our big fires was started by a private microgrid that had a line failure. And here is where I usually hear about how we aren't logging enough and keeping our forests clean. The problem is that none of these fires occurred in forests suitable for logging, just dry oak scrubland that is mostly private property. The forest around Paradise, CA is suitable for logging but the fire didn't happen in the forest, it happened in town. That is what sent them into bankruptcy.

So, the fault lies with whoever is responsible for maintaining the land in a safe manner. Throughout California that is not managed well and never has been. Property owners are not required to keep their properties clear of scrub brush. PG&E is apparently not required to keep their power lines clear either. 

When the weather is hot and windy the accidental fires and arson fires take over. Embers can travel for a mile. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:39 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Correct, fire liability is a big part of the costs and it is the only reason that we have black outs during red flag events. 

No, it is because demand is not met by sufficient supply. It happens without fires. Again you supply no support for your statements unless challenged. Grid shifting is not an acceptable way to provide power needs. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:39 PM, Rob Kramer said:

A bit of news California blackouts: It was just last year that CAISO had to issue rolling blackouts due to fire risks in the state. You have to go back to 2001 to find the last time an emergency was declared due to high demand. But hot weather happens a lot; what's different this time?

Today’s CAISO outlook forecasts peak demand above available capacity, so real-time power prices will likely soar. Today’s forecast peak is 44.4 GW while Monday’s is 47.0GW. The all-time record has stood at 50.27GW since July 24, 2006.

https://www.thestreet.com/.amp-utilities/utilities/news/081620?__twitter_impression=true

from this^

HFI Research

@HFI_Research

·

9h

 

Media biases couldn’t be clearer these days. California’s blackout is attributed to renewable energy sources failing because of the state’s desire to get rid of hydrocarbons. But Bloomberg writes that it’s not the state’s fault, it’s the weather! Pathetic.

 

 

 

Energy Blogger

@energy_blogger

Replying to

@HFI_Research

and

@anasalhajji

California Solar facts: Solar Installed Capacity - 14.1 GW ‘May’ Solar Generation - 7 GW Aug data not available yet but above figures should given an idea. Generation Calculation May total generation - 5233GWh (5233 / 24 hrs in a day / 31 days in May) https://

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/renewables_data/solar/index_cms.php

Fire problems seem like a convenient excuse to me. A diesel truck started the biggest fire in Southern California. A glass bottle can start a fire. Accidental fires and arson are big causes also. The main reason we have them is due to lack of weed control through active cutting and grazing. 

A redundant energy system is needed with plenty of local natural gas plants. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

I guess climate change would only cause extreme weather in California, as per the article posted. Does the extreme weather affect Baja or Oregon?

Who dreams this stuff up? Who writes it? Who edits it?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

No, it is because demand is not met by sufficient supply. It happens without fires. Again you supply no support for your statements unless challenged. Grid shifting is not an acceptable way to provide power needs. 

Good grief Ron, we buy our electricity from a for profit company not a free market. They charge what they can to make a profit and that includes reimbursement for cost such as fires:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/09/21/brown-signs-bill-allowing-utilities-to-pass-costs-of-wildfire-lawsuits-onto-consumers/

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/gov-browns-culpability-spreading-wildfires

"Gov Brown's Culpability For Spreading Wildfires"

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

California State Legislators Use Coronavirus As An Excuse To Hijack Democratic Process

https://www.consumerwatchdog.org/insurance/california-state-legislators-use-coronavirus-excuse-hijack-democratic-process

During the hearing, one state senator called the circumstances surrounding consideration of AB 2167 “sinister” and noted that a third bill that took a more consumer-friendly approach — AB 2367 by Assembly Member Lorena Gonzalez, D-San Diego — was denied any hearing at the Insurance Committee by Asm. Daly. Thus the insurance industry’s solution to a crisis it caused — by jacking up premiums or refusing to sell coverage in communities insurers deem a “wildfire risk” — is now the only option before the Senate.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Good grief Ron, we buy our electricity from a for profit company not a free market. They charge what they can to make a profit and that includes reimbursement for cost such as fires:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/09/21/brown-signs-bill-allowing-utilities-to-pass-costs-of-wildfire-lawsuits-onto-consumers/

Localized natural gas plants can minimize most of the dangers of fire due to power lines. I have never heard of many fires caused by power lines until the Paradise fire  but I think that it can be dealt with by eliminating many power lines. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/17/2020 at 2:31 AM, Wombat said:

Rob, it just proves the point that California has not invested enough in short-term storage yet, let alone long-term storage. They just starting on the short-term storage, as the article is about, so they obviously going to take their time to address long-term storage. Just serious mismanagement and short-term thinking, nothing to do with cost of renewables. If CCGT so cheap, where is the back-up from that source?

 

California's politicians have long made Green decisions to discontinue backup from natural gas. That is the only reason for the current blackouts. They are still living in a Green Fog. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Localized natural gas plants can minimize most of the dangers of fire due to power lines. I have never heard of many fires caused by power lines until the Paradise fire  but I think that it can be dealt with by eliminating many power lines. 

And how is the electricity suppose to get to the houses without power lines? The power lines that cause the fires are small local distribution lines along country roads. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

You must be talking about rural areas, so I will address that. 

1. Underground lines.

2. Propane fueled microturbines or generators. 

3. Private solar or wind  installations on their own properties with battery backups. 

I 

 

[Bob D + 562]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:51 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Actually it can power the whole sf bay area for an hour. So we just need about 10x this capacity to handle the whole bay area all through the night. We will have that built by 2030 at the latest. 

Jay

So the battery handles the SF Bay area load through the night.  Now the battery is drained and needs to be recharged.  When does it get recharged during a heat wave like they are experiencing now?  

Additionally, SF Bay power prices are already high.  Elon and PGE won't tell us what 1/10th battery capacity costs.  Add the cost of 10x the capacity of this battery system.  Now what's the cost to deliver power?  Lower?

The success Greenies want to point to seems to always be a decade away no matter how much you spend today. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

40 minutes ago, Bob D said:

Jay

So the battery handles the SF Bay area load through the night.  Now the battery is drained and needs to be recharged.  When does it get recharged during a heat wave like they are experiencing now?  

Additionally, SF Bay power prices are already high.  Elon and PGE won't tell us what 1/10th battery capacity costs.  Add the cost of 10x the capacity of this battery system.  Now what's the cost to deliver power?  Lower?

The success Greenies want to point to seems to always be a decade away no matter how much you spend today. 

We need to build enough solar to satisfy real time and storage needs.

Battery costs are falling by 50% every year and they are far superior for managing the grid than fossil because of how fast they can change throughput to match the grid. 

The investment function today is the critical component to success tomorrow. That is at the center of the formula. It is a process and yes it will take a couple decades to reach 100% renewable. We are on course but there are always a few problems to be solved along the way.

[Monk + 14]

On 8/19/2020 at 8:09 AM, ronwagn said:

California's politicians have long made Green decisions to discontinue backup from natural gas. That is the only reason for the current blackouts. They are still living in a Green Fog. 

I have neither skin or position in this game nor want to rain on your parade of  “This current challenging situation obviously means all of my previously held views were correct”. 

 

For an analyst view of what happened and what's the fix? (link below) : 

For some context from ERCOT in TX  and on how it solves them :- 1) generator are allowed to bid up to 9000$/MWH - (9$/KWH)  when blackouts are likely,  2) ERCOT barely avoided blackouts/load shedding in August 2019 with 9000$ prices and had rolling blackouts in Winter of 2011, 3) it is ok to have load shedding if the cost of preventing is greater than 9$/KWh- ( every power system under NERC, aims for less than 1 day in 10 years LOLE loss of load expectation)  4) 1 day in 10 year LOLE means some capacity is really only needed one day in 10 years

Now for what happened in CA with CAISO:  (it is fascinating, please read through the whole thing and wait till the end for a Night Shyamalan's like twist)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/buried-caisos-public-data-clue-rolling-blackouts-california-dov-quint/

"The root cause of the problem though is that CAISO simply does not have enough ramping capacity in the evening hours to handle peak net demand. CAISO’s famous duck curve has come to bite hard, as CAISO did not have enough of its own capacity in the peak hours to pass the Flex Ramp Up Sufficiency test and be able to access the additional imports it so desperately needed.

How to fix it? While CAISO is implementing a few emergency solutions including trying to procure additional short-term capacity, the first step I would suggest is to raise the bid cap to $2,000. FERC has already issued order 831, directing CAISO to do this, but CAISO has been dragging its feet as it attempts to wrap this change in with a larger and more complex market redesign. Moving the price cap up to $2,000, and dropping some of the onerous rules forcing resources to prove their costs are above $1,000, should be part of the immediate solution. 

The two types of resources that will have the most incentives to expand with a $2,000 bid cap are storage and demand response, which are exactly the resources that CAISO needs to cover its shortage of ramping capacity. 

Expanding the energy bid cap to $2,000 will alter the economics of battery storage dispatch, increasing the incentives for these resources to buy energy at low prices during the mid-day hours when California has excess solar generation, and offer that energy for sale during the peak load hours. Increasing the value of this "energy arbitrage" opportunity will encourage more storage resources to enter the market"

 

It seems the free market solution to the recent once in decade or two decade power shortage in CA seems to be  battery/energy storage solution at GW scale similar to the original posting of the article.

That's one hell of jujitsu outcome though. Who would have guessed? or For that matter who would even understand and accept such a thing?

Edited August 21, 2020 by Monk