Consumer Reports Confirms EV Owners Spend Half As Much On Maintenance

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Then the mfg is Tesla. 

Police Department buys car from Tesla. They do not get an EV tax credit because Tesla is no longer eligible.

The car is then sent to one or more aftermarket companies who provide various modifications such as: flashing colored lights, radios, vinyl flooring, vinyl backseat, front/back passenger separator, exterior paint, gun vaults...

Police department takes delivery and enjoys the car immensely while saving a lot of money over the life of the car. Bargersville has now replaced three of their four Dodge Chargers and is hiring two new officers with their vehicle savings.

Tesla does not mfg a police pkg...to many liabilities. The above links state as much.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

16 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

After market company's are not mfg's...but that is only part of the equation. 

Aftermarket conversions of vehicles into police vehicles is very common and very legal. just do a google search for police conversions.

here is an example https://www.prolinerrescue.com/conversions

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Tesla does not mfg a police pkg...to many liabilities. The above links state as much.

Tesla is the mfg of the Model 3 Performance. It is then converted into a police configuration as described in my last couple posts. Police Department uses it.

What is so difficult about this for you?

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

3 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Aftermarket conversions of vehicles into police vehicles is very common and very legal. just do a google search for police conversions.

here is an example https://www.prolinerrescue.com/conversions

There is the magic word conversion company, you might wish to check their pricing on EV conversion....

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Tesla is the mfg of the Model 3 Performance. It is then converted into a police configuration as described in my last couple posts. Police Department uses it.

What is so difficult about this for you?

Not a thing is difficult for me...you seem to lack the fundamentals...actually let us start here. California did use the 7500 dollar tax credit ...it would be interesting to make that public knowledge..as you have already said California does not pay federal taxes so how and why the credit?....lol lets dig a deeper hole shall we?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

8 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Not a thing is difficult for me...you seem to lack the fundamentals...actually let us start here. California did use the 7500 dollar tax credit ...it would be interesting to make that public knowledge..as you have already said California does not pay federal taxes so how and why the credit?....lol lets dig a deeper hole shall we?

No let's not change the topic just because you are loosing. As of today nobody gets any tax credits for buying Teslas because they exceeded their sales threshold and are no longer eligible. We are discussing the future of police vehicles. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

9 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No let's not change the topic just because you are loosing. As of today nobody gets any tax credits for buying Teslas because they exceeded their sales threshold and are no longer eligible. We are discussing the future of police vehicles. 

 

 

We are discussing the consumer reports documentation....are we not?

Edited October 6, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

21 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

We are discussing the consumer reports documentation....are we not?

Not for the past 7 hours, much research time and many posts.

We can go back to the CR report on the condition that you understand it is a tacit acknowledgement on your part that your stated concerns over Tesla Police EVs were unfounded and refuted.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Not for the past 7 hours, much research time and many posts.

We can go back to the CR report on the condition that you understand that is a tacit acknowledgement on your part that your stated concerns over Police Tesla EVs were unfounded and refuted.

Ohh how contraire mon frere.....I am merely providing enough information to illustrate the CR report is badly written full of half truths towards a vehicle that is not mfg for police work, cannot be reliably called upon to perform in the full capacity to do police work and more than probably a public liability hacked together....Not there is anything wrong with backyard hacks when done on ones own dime.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

24 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ohh how contraire mon frere.....I am merely providing enough information to illustrate the CR report is badly written full of half truths towards a vehicle that is not mfg for police work, cannot be reliably called upon to perform in the full capacity to do police work and more than probably a public liability hacked together....Not there is anything wrong with backyard hacks when done on ones own dime.

The CR report had nothing to do with police vehicles.

As to the rest of that throw up about EV suitability for police work, I accept your admission of failure to provide any credible evidence to support your position.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

25 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The CR report had nothing to do with police vehicles.

As to the rest of that throw up about EV suitability for police work, I accept your admission of failure to provide any credible evidence to support your position.

Odd I have been developing similar impressions towards your reasoning.PerhapsTesla could over simplify this and simply provide a police package engineered from the ground up.

Then there are those damming fundamentals that get in the way...iI am having a moment here..

A Telsa with a iron formed frame..Yes now that's a point of conversation..

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Odd I have been developing similar impressions towards your reasoning.PerhapsTesla could over simplify this and simply provide a police package engineered from the ground up.

Then there are those damming fundamentals that get in the way...iI am having a moment here..

A Telsa with a iron formed frame..Yes now that's a point of conversation..

 

Because they don't need to? They do have an internal product software group who are working with fleets such as the PD to meet their needs but otherwise there is a massive aftermarket industry that can solve the hardware problem, keeps them in business.

Yes you are having a moment... there are no fundamentals to get in the way.

As to the advantage of an iron age formed frame over an integrated battery skateboard?  We can look forward to the future to reveal... 😄

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Because they don't need to? They do have an internal product software group who are working with fleets such as the PD to meet their needs but otherwise there is a massive aftermarket industry that can solve the hardware problem, keeps them in business.

Yes you are having a moment... there are no fundamentals to get in the way.

As to the advantage of an iron age formed frame over an integrated battery skateboard?  We can look forward to the future to reveal... 😄

To be clear about the consumer reports article, the video clearly states they put 23,000 miles on the Tesla in 13 months, but back of the envelope math shows the Charger put over 40,000 miles on, which explains the big ticket $1900 charge for tires in April. The Tesla would pay at least as much for its tires at the same time. So let's dig deeper shall we? The cost of fuel should be cut in half also so the $6500 annual savings is really $3250, but take away the $1935 for tires and the delta is $1315. How many police does that pay for? 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

15 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

To be clear about the consumer reports article, the video clearly states they put 23,000 miles on the Tesla in 13 months, but back of the envelope math shows the Charger put over 40,000 miles on, which explains the big ticket $1900 charge for tires in April. The Tesla would pay at least as much for its tires at the same time. So let's dig deeper shall we? The cost of fuel should be cut in half also so the $6500 annual savings is really $3250, but take away the $1935 for tires and the delta is $1315. How many police does that pay for? 

You need to watch *both* the videos, from beginning to end, and ye questions shall be answered.

Both being Bargersville and Westport.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

19 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You need to watch *both* the videos, from beginning to end, and ye questions shall be answered.

Both being Bargersville and Westport.

No. I. Don't. 

I'm not wasting my time watching stupid videos, if you've got something to say, say it. I'm discussing the article you quoted, not a bunch of videos. The chief cooked the books, and he's loving the attention he's getting, but the numbers are skewed as both @footeab@yahoo.com And I have pointed out. You're the one who said they were buying three more cars and hiring two more officers with the "savings". Well I've seen politicians talk about "savings" before. They never materialise.

Not to mention, what happens when not if that Tesla gets into a wreck? Every police dept is self insured since insurance premiums would bankrupt them, so repairs are on them. I'll say 3 times more expensive to repair than the Dodge. That's assuming nothing goes wrong with the batteries, if that happens, figure 10x minimum. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

No. I. Don't. 

I'm not wasting my time watching stupid videos, if you've got something to say, say it. I'm discussing the article you quoted, not a bunch of videos. The chief cooked the books, and he's loving the attention he's getting, but the numbers are skewed as both @footeab@yahoo.com And I have pointed out. You're the one who said they were buying three more cars and hiring two more officers with the "savings". Well I've seen politicians talk about "savings" before. They never materialise.

Not to mention, what happens when not if that Tesla gets into a wreck? Every police dept is self insured since insurance premiums would bankrupt them, so repairs are on them. I'll say 3 times more expensive to repair than the Dodge. That's assuming nothing goes wrong with the batteries, if that happens, figure 10x minimum. 

Bwahhabawahhhaaaahhooahho!!!

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 10/5/2020 at 4:20 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Consumer Reports is the foremost independent body in the US in regard to consumer product testing. When you say you looked at the link do you mean the article or the report that it links to?  Because the report explains what they did.  

Okay - fair enough. Consumer reports is fine by me but a far more usable table is this one from the report

Table 2.1. Estimated Per-Mile Repair and Maintenance Costs by Powertrain Powertrain Type 0-50K Miles 50K-100K Miles 100K-200K Miles Lifetime Average BEV $0.012 $0.028 $0.043 7 $0.031 PHEV $0.021 $0.031 $0.033 5 $0.030 ICE $0.028 $0.060 $0.079 $0.061

Okay - I couldn't make it come across properly formatted but the link is here  anyway the upshot is as you'd expect. Although the maintenance/repair costs are, indeed, double for the first 100,000 miles or so, the actual dollar amount doesn't really start to make enough of a difference to matter until your car is well beyond the 50,000 mile mark. For the first three years of ownership, depending on use, there would be very little difference and the car should still  be under warranty anyway.  Another way of looking at this is that a use electric would probably cost less to maintain than a used ICE, but is there much of a used e-car market? And there is still the problem that the battery pack does not seem to be included. The original story should have made all that clear. Anyway, again I've learned something.. leave it with you..  

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

14 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ok i believe there is the enough info to start a WAG on the true cost of ownership...and in the end legally i see no use other than picking up the mayors laundry...My bad that was not fair...

I disagree.  The EV police interceptor (EVPI) could be utilised very similarly to how the Harrier Jump Jet is:

- Park EVPIs, and position rapid chargers, strategically to provide rapid call-up and target acquisition.

- Utilize the superior speed characteristics to locate and engage the target quickly.  Then utilize the EVPI's unique speed and agility/maneuverability characteristics to pester and frustrate the target until either they surrender or until back up arrives.

- The driver would need a special certification to operate the EVPI effectively and safely.  No exceptions, only certified drivers.

- Install a 180 degree rotating "raise-up" Gatling gun where the ICE's engine would normally be.  And add another one to the trunk area.  For tight jams and so forth.   

But in all seriousness, you could even have retired Jump Jet pilots as instructors.  I'm sure they would be able to relate even more mission profiles that would be highly valuable for certain police departments.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

10 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

No. I. Don't. 

I'm not wasting my time watching stupid videos, if you've got something to say, say it. I'm discussing the article you quoted, not a bunch of videos. The chief cooked the books, and he's loving the attention he's getting, but the numbers are skewed as both @footeab@yahoo.com And I have pointed out. You're the one who said they were buying three more cars and hiring two more officers with the "savings". Well I've seen politicians talk about "savings" before. They never materialise.

Not to mention, what happens when not if that Tesla gets into a wreck? Every police dept is self insured since insurance premiums would bankrupt them, so repairs are on them. I'll say 3 times more expensive to repair than the Dodge. That's assuming nothing goes wrong with the batteries, if that happens, figure 10x minimum. 

Your liable for doing his homework.  That way if you come to a different conclusion he can say you didnt dig deep enough or do it correctly.  Same old strategy apply homework . 

My honest opinion on this police interceptor topic is price doesnt matter. It's cheaper to have zero police but we would rather pay and have order then not. So whatever car fits the type of use best should be used. Theres helicopters interceptors, suvs , radar stations ect use what's needed. Finding 1k between vehicles means nothing and to convert an entire department due to one metic would be dumb. My earlier post showed how 8k$? Can get a car to 200k miles . Without buying in bulk and having a fleet mechanic.  At 80k a year for some on the force if one person not pulling their weight is equal to 10 vehicles repair costs.... efficiency has to be across the board and mabey a more efficient use of money would be to have un used military people serve as cops. To serve and protect is a broad mandate that sometime is fulfilled in presence. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

13 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Bwahhabawahhhaaaahhooahho!!!

Here's your homework buckwheat. Watch your stupid videos and post the time mark where supposedly your argument is being buttressed. If not, just concede the point that I'm totally right and you're totally wrong. Easy peasy. 

Can your university get it's PhD back? You're kind of embarrassing it. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

Uh, guys Taxes... EV pays zero in road taxes Charger pays 1/3 of its fuel bill as TAXES

Will the government just shrug its shoulders and say, screw it, we do not need taxes for roads?  Hell NO!

So, lets make this EVEN shall we? 

1. One gallon of gas ($3) has ~$1 in taxes(USA), it is higher in Europe, lower in other parts of the world.
2. 1 Gallon gas =~30miles driven
3. $1/30miles = road tax of ~ $0.03/mile driven
4. Electric vehicle equivalent tax over 1 year period in previous example paying SAME tax of 20,000 miles = $600
5. So, actual cost is ~$60/month in electricity and ~$50/month in taxes. 
6. Actual cost comparison for 20,000miles 

ICE: 30mpg, @20,000 miles = 660 gallons @$3/gallon and one oil change = ~$2000 bucks

EV(US): 20,000miles $110/month x 12 ~ $1320 if home charged. 

EV If Supercharger network used.  Current price US is 26c/KWh which is close to home charge cost of power in EUROPE.

1. 20,000 miles(30kkm) @0.25 miles/KWH = 5000KWh @26c/KWh = ~$1300 + Road Taxes of $600 = $1900

So, REAL world is ICE $2000, EV $1900

EDIT: Norway jacking up its charger station $$$ to upwards of equivalent $0.88/KWh... Remember that one?  Good luck on "saving" any money... Government always gets its cut...

Edited October 6, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Rob Kramer + 696]

21 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Uh, guys Taxes... EV pays zero in road taxes Charger pays 1/3 of its fuel bill as TAXES

Will the government just shrug its shoulders and say, screw it, we do not need taxes for roads?  Hell NO!

So, lets make this EVEN shall we? 

1. One gallon of gas ($3) has ~$1 in taxes(USA), it is higher in Europe, lower in other parts of the world.
2. 1 Gallon gas =~30miles driven
3. $1/30miles = road tax of ~ $0.03/mile driven
4. Electric vehicle equivalent tax over 1 year period in previous example paying SAME tax of 20,000 miles = $600
5. So, actual cost is ~$60/month in electricity and ~$50/month in taxes. 
6. Actual cost comparison for 20,000miles 

ICE: 30mpg, @20,000 miles = 660 gallons @$3/gallon and one oil change = ~$2000 bucks

EV(US): 20,000miles $110/month x 12 ~ $1320 if home charged. 

EV If Supercharger network used.  Current price US is 26c/KWh which is close to home charge cost of power in EUROPE.

1. 20,000 miles(30kkm) @0.25 miles/KWH = 5000KWh @26c/KWh = ~$1300 + Road Taxes of $600 = $1900

So, REAL world is ICE $2000, EV $1900

EDIT: Norway jacking up its charger station $$$ to upwards of equivalent $0.88/KWh... Remember that one?  Good luck on "saving" any money... Government always gets its cut...

Yes this has been my entire argument against EV. In canada at 10L/100km and 300,000km on a car at 97c/L fuel 43c/L is tax so 30k L x .43c is 12,900$ . That's what a 2L/2500lb vehicle with highway and city driving mixed. 

Now a cop car . 6.0L? 3,500lbs? Idle but ready to chase and mostly city or acceleration . What's that 20L/100 ? My dad when he worked at the military base had Van 5.7L chevs with 35L/100km from sitting with AC on. That's 12.9k÷3= 4300x3.5 =15,050$ per 100,000km . You think Canada (BC currently) can afford to give out 15k $ per EV and not receive 15K$ per 12L/100km averaging vehicle? Answer NO . 

If you understand how tesla makes money through ZEV tax credits you'll understand by 2025 when every manufacturer sells it's own EV they no longer need to pay tesla and they cloapse or scalp money from shareholders.  Theres a short coming .

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Uh, guys Taxes... EV pays zero in road taxes Charger pays 1/3 of its fuel bill as TAXES

Will the government just shrug its shoulders and say, screw it, we do not need taxes for roads?  Hell NO!

So, lets make this EVEN shall we? 

1. One gallon of gas ($3) has ~$1 in taxes(USA), it is higher in Europe, lower in other parts of the world.
2. 1 Gallon gas =~30miles driven
3. $1/30miles = road tax of ~ $0.03/mile driven
4. Electric vehicle equivalent tax over 1 year period in previous example paying SAME tax of 20,000 miles = $600
5. So, actual cost is ~$60/month in electricity and ~$50/month in taxes. 
6. Actual cost comparison for 20,000miles 

ICE: 30mpg, @20,000 miles = 660 gallons @$3/gallon and one oil change = ~$2000 bucks

EV(US): 20,000miles $110/month x 12 ~ $1320 if home charged. 

EV If Supercharger network used.  Current price US is 26c/KWh which is close to home charge cost of power in EUROPE.

1. 20,000 miles(30kkm) @0.25 miles/KWH = 5000KWh @26c/KWh = ~$1300 + Road Taxes of $600 = $1900

So, REAL world is ICE $2000, EV $1900

EDIT: Norway jacking up its charger station $$$ to upwards of equivalent $0.88/KWh... Remember that one?  Good luck on "saving" any money... Government always gets its cut...

In Washington State they make up for the lack of gasoline taxes by charging considerably more for the annual license tabs. $300-600 more for EV than ICE vehicles pay. There's also a utility tax on power, but (so far) that's fairly light. Unintended consequences of bunglecrat illiterati making decisions on faulty logic. The more they kill fossil, the more they kill the golden goose. It's much worse in Europe, where gasoline and diesel taxes average about $6 per gallon. 

[ridgetopab 0]

Advantage and trend for eV to replace ICE on cost and reliability is undeniable.  Big oil and Big Auto all getting on board, look at the stock market if you are a doubter.  Big question now is fuel cell or batteries or a hybrid of the two technologies. Probably some niche markets will be left to ICEs in the future but, not where you want to invest for the long term.

Beating a dead horse for the ICE believers; facts debated ad nauseum with minute irrelevant details nitpicked to death, same thinking process that believed ICE would never replace horsepower in the early 1900s.  e.g. brake and tire wear debate; eV uses regenerative braking so much easier on tires and drive train components.  Cost is the motivator regardless of the sentimental thinking.  Environmental impact is becoming a major cost (regulation and consumer demand) built into the ICE industry.  I would think the bigger issue for police is availability of the Tesla (does it recharge completely during scheduled station breaks or while waiting for calls?). 

[Rob Kramer + 696]

21 minutes ago, ridgetopab said:

Advantage and trend for eV to replace ICE on 1) cost and reliability is undeniable.2)  Big oil and Big Auto all getting on board,3) look at the stock market if you are a doubter. 

-Big question now is fuel cell or batteries or a hybrid of the two technologies. Probably some niche markets will be left to ICEs in the future but, not where you want to invest for the long term.-

4)Beating a dead horse for the ICE believers; facts debated ad nauseum with minute irrelevant details nitpicked to death, 5)same thinking process that believed ICE would never replace horsepower in the early 1900s. 6) e.g. brake and tire wear debate; eV uses regenerative braking so much easier on tires and drive train components. 1) Cost is the motivator regardless of the sentimental thinking.  Environmental impact is becoming a major cost 

1) how can you say cost advantage? 15k in tax credits , more expensive vehicle, non taxed fuel (canadian and ALL high adoption areas) 

How can you say more reliable? Theres what .4% of EVs on the road? Tons with self crashing and ignition to flame. 

2)pleasing shareholders BP and others doesnt count - those are words- tell me when 51% income is from renewables.  Big auto .... hmmm being forced by government is "getting on board" paying tesla 5k$ per ZEV credit due from sales of ICE is called killing the competition.  The only way tesla makes positive cash is from ZEV . Kill tesla and make EV for fan boys and your shares rise. 2 for 1 deal. 

3) yes I am a doubter. NICOLA MOTORS prime example. 32B $ company with nothing. TESLA makes almost NO INCOME and only barley from a fleeting tax credit but is somehow worth half of all other car companies (that are profitable after paying credits) . Calling trend chasing investors knowledgeable is scary. Hope your not the last one out. 

4) yes our REAL facts outweigh your peanut of socialism capitalism.  Force tax credits and rebates , install additional taxes on opponent... claim profitability and trend setting. 

5)didnt realize there was a global public knowledge that was accessible to the majority of cities. Example the internet. How would some random farmer have any idea of development in the oil and auto industry? How did you hand pick your voices of doubt?

6)tires and brakes hope your a qualified mechanic and have seen (with your eyes thousands of sets of brakes) because I can personally tell you brakes can last 150,000km and tires 120,000km. If your alignment is out that can be 30,000km ... I wonder if alignments get out of spec on a tesla? Or if they turn corners quickly and scrub tires? 100% same wear mabey 10% more on a 2wd vehicle due to wet weather acceleration and deceleration. Brakes - most wear is from people waiting last minute to brake or seized pads and them applying and not releasing (needing a service) so if tesla drivers drive the same and they do and service their cars the same and they do same wear. That last min stop goes beyond the rnw braking and applies the pad it sticks and wears pre mature. But you've probably seen cars on the hoist every day for years . 

 Anyways if you believe Tesla can supply more that 1% of new cars a year go for it. Sky is the limit they only have another 99% of market share ahead right? Lol