Most ridiculous green proposal

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

31 minutes ago, markslawson said:

I might point out, as I have with pfarley that your reaction to this absurd proposal highlights the extreme difficultly of having sensible debates in this area. You insist on defending what is obviously nonsense, simply because it involves green power. Leave it with you. 

You think he's tough, try dealing with the hard-core Leftists in Vermont!

[pfarley@bigpond.net.au + 42]

I suppose I should not go low as they say, but when you start by saying is this the most ridiculous proposition ever, you do kind of invite criticism.

If you had started by questioning the viability of the whole export hydrogen economy push I am inclined to agree with you. In my view almost all applications of hydrogen can or will be done cheaper by other means. Where hydrogen is needed, it will ultimately be cheaper to generate it locally from excess wind, solar, geothermal etc. Once multi-junction solar panels reach 27-30% efficiency and 15-20 MW offshore and 6-8 MW onshore wind turbines are common there will hardly be a country in the world that can't generate most of its own energy cheaper than importing hydrogen,

However because the complimentarity of the wind and solar in that region and sufficient heavy maintenance and shipping capability whether it is a new jetty at 80 mile beach or a power line to Port Headland, if there is anywhere on earth that is a good place to set up a mass green hydrogen production facility it would have to be one of the better ones. Then it might fill the gaps in supply while places like Singapore Korea and Japan modernise their energy systems. For example Korea and Japan might convert their gas turbines to hydrogen in five years but it might take 20 years before they have enough excess renewables to make their own hydrogen

[pfarley@bigpond.net.au + 42]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:36 AM, markslawson said:

We've all seen bizarre suggestions concerning hydrogen, electric cars, renewable energy and so on. I thought we might compile a few of them. For me the top two picks would have to be ..

1 - After a period of rolling blackouts in California, Governor Newsom does not declare the state will fix the problem by building or encouraging more firm power generation. Instead he declares that the state will put an already struggling grid under more pressure by pledging to ban petrol car sales in the state by 2035 - effectively boosting electric car sales. This is just a token, of course. In 15 years, Newsom will be a memory, and his policy announcement forgotten. If it ever was implemented, the only important result of the policy would be to kill off the new car market in California. Those who want petrol cars will turn to the used car market or go across the state border to buy.  However, the symbolism is entertaining. Never mind reality, let's make a policy statement that will make our nutty supporter base happy.

2 - Hydrogen making project. The Asian Renewable Energy Project, a consortium of companies in the  renewable energy field, proposes dropping around $A30 billion ($US21.3 billion) building a heap of renewable energy projects in North Western Australia and to ship the energy out stored in hydrogen. Never mind that using hydrogen for that purpose is not a commercial proposition as of yet, or that the project is literally in the middle of no where. The designated area is between the towns of Port Hedland and Broome which have permanent populations of about 14,000 each - by far the largest towns in the region - and by between, I don't mean a polite 15 minute drive or so.. I'm talking about hours of driving. Port Hedland in turn is about two hours flying time North of the state capital Perth (2.1 million). To get the energy out transmission lines just aren't going to cut it, so maybe they could transmit the power to Eighty Mile Beach, which is a caravan park for those who want to visit a wetlands of international importance (oh no!). I would call it a swamp with a few birdies, but there are those who would disagree. The project map seems to indicate that they want to build a port in this environmentally sensitive area for pumping hydrogen into ships. Its not likely anyone's going to object, right? Then there is the little matter of finding customers for this hydrogen. Supporters say that the H2 can be injected into natural gas up to about 3 per cent of the mix, although there is still the little matter of why anyone would want to mix expensive H2 with cheap gas for a small reduction in emissions.. 

Any other suggestions?

 

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

Wombat - do you believe everything you're told or do you occasionally screen stuff out? Sure the project developers have managed to doctor up a case for the line but look at the distances involved. An $11 billion cable to pump renewables? And that figure does not cover the setting up the solar farms. What they should do is set up these panels and try selling power to Darwin first and maybe later build a line. But they would need a Price Purchasing Agreement from someone in Singapore first. As it is reports say the buyers have "expressed interest" which could mean almost anything. Sure they might buy cheap power if some lunatic Australians want to build the line. There is no indication any investor other than Mike Cannon-Brookes will go near this ridiculous proposal, apart from developer assurances, and developers will say anything.

Here are a few words from an article in the Australian Financial Review. I regret I cannot link the article as its behind a pay wall. By "some" analysts the journalist means all (I used that phrase myself) .. Note "potential customer" .. that means no commitment, so no line.. 

Singapore's largest independent electricity retailer iSwitch has emerged as the first potential customer for a $20 billion-plus solar power export venture backed by tech billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes.

But some analysts were sceptical the plan was viable despite the deep pockets of the Atlassian co-founder, because of the vast distances power must be pumped to make it work.

I might point out, as I have with pfarley that your reaction to this absurd proposal highlights the extreme difficultly of having sensible debates in this area. You insist on defending what is obviously nonsense, simply because it involves green power. Leave it with you.   

You are a contrary person, you keep disparaging others and then get offended when others disagree with you. VW says the ID3 their first ground up electric car is 40% cheaper to build than the E-Golf, do you think they won't make further progress. Tesla is reducing prices but increasing gross margin on its cars. Battery cost are falling 18% per year and as charging stations proliferate, range becomes less and less a consideration.so after a peak typical battery sizes will start to fall.   For most people the equation will be why spend $8-10,000 and cart around 150kg of batteries to save 10 minutes on a long trip four or five times a year. Just because you can't see the future, it doesn't mean others can't either. I suppose you were one of the people that said Apple could never challenge Nokia or that Netflix was not a threat to Blockbuster.

Even since Sun cable was announced, available panel power has jumped from 420 W to 800 W reducing BOS costs. Don't you think the people building the various North Sea interconnector cables have learnt anything about making cables cheaper and with the falling price of batteries it is possible by putting a battery at either end of the cable to reduce the cable size and still meet demand at the other end so how do you, me or anyone know enough to call the proposal ridiculous

I also doubt the feasibility of Sun Cable and the Pilbarra hydrogen hub. However people who are far more successful at building new businesses and knowledgeable than you or I think it is worth sinking many millions into preliminary studies. So just maybe they see a possibility that you don't. If they are wrong they have dropped 1-2% of their net worth. If they are right they may double their wealth and reduce energy costs and emissions for many parts of Asia.

If you want more respect start out by showing a bit yourself   .  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 hours ago, pfarley@bigpond.net.au said:

I suppose I should not go low as they say, but when you start by saying is this the most ridiculous proposition ever, you do kind of invite criticism.

 For example Korea and Japan might convert their gas turbines to hydrogen in five years but it might take 20 years before they have enough excess renewables to make their own hydrogen

I'll put your statement right up there with the biggest absurd statements greenies have ever made

solar/wind potential of those two countries is beyond hopeless.  1500 hours a year and half is in the summer leaving 3 months with zero.  Oh wait, just like all other northern/southern areas far from the equator... As for wind, both have diddly for wind and only Japan has a tiny bit way up north if you count the sea as a possibility as Japan is very hilly, so if you call gusty, destroyers of all things, main bearings, hilltops wind sites... uh, ok before one considers the horrible expense of placing the turbine there to begin with...

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

38 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

I'll put your statement right up there with the biggest absurd statements greenies have ever made

solar/wind potential of those two countries is beyond hopeless.  1500 hours a year and half is in the summer leaving 3 months with zero.  Oh wait, just like all other northern/southern areas far from the equator... As for wind, both have diddly for wind and only Japan has a tiny bit way up north if you count the sea as a possibility as Japan is very hilly, so if you call gusty, destroyers of all things, main bearings, hilltops wind sites... uh, ok before one considers the horrible expense of placing the turbine there to begin with...

Wrong again. Japan has terrific off shore wind and that is what is relevant..

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

32 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Wrong again. Japan has terrific off shore wind and that is what is relevant..

So "terrific" no one has ever bothered with deep continental shelf energy collection and now you wish to move this "terrific operation" that has never been done before onto the Japanese trench at 8000m deep that has produced 13Richter 7 earthquakes, 2 Richter 8 earthquakes and 1 Richter 9 Tsunami in the last 100 years. 

Oh do please, tell us more. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

19 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So "terrific" no one has ever bothered with deep continental shelf energy collection and now you wish to move this "terrific operation" that has never been done before onto the Japanese trench at 8000m deep that has produced 13Richter 7 earthquakes, 2 Richter 8 earthquakes and 1 Richter 9 Tsunami in the last 100 years. 

Oh do please, tell us more. 

The Japanese trench is only on the eastern side and floating turbines don't care about earthquakes.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

35 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The Japanese trench is only on the eastern side and floating turbines don't care about earthquakes.

Is there wind on the west side?  No.  Floating wind turbines proposed to maybe be lower their cost down to 3x the cost of sea mount or shallow sea mountings, who knows how much greater than land, and power cables do not float 

Please, do tell us more, your reasoning is brilliant and ability to read a basic wind map is amazing. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Is there wind on the west side?  No.  Floating wind turbines proposed to maybe be lower their cost down to 3x the cost of sea mount or shallow sea mountings, who knows how much greater than land, and power cables do not float 

Please, do tell us more, your reasoning is brilliant and ability to read a basic wind map is amazing. 

There is plenty of wind on the west side and it is clearly visible in the wind map. Floating wind costs are going to be less than fixed. 

[Richard D + 86]

6 hours ago, pfarley@bigpond.net.au said:

 

You are a contrary person, you keep disparaging others and then get offended when others disagree with you. VW says the ID3 their first ground up electric car is 40% cheaper to build than the E-Golf, do you think they won't make further progress. Tesla is reducing prices but increasing gross margin on its cars. Battery cost are falling 18% per year and as charging stations proliferate, range becomes less and less a consideration.so after a peak typical battery sizes will start to fall.   For most people the equation will be why spend $8-10,000 and cart around 150kg of batteries to save 10 minutes on a long trip four or five times a year. Just because you can't see the future, it doesn't mean others can't either. I suppose you were one of the people that said Apple could never challenge Nokia or that Netflix was not a threat to Blockbuster.

Even since Sun cable was announced, available panel power has jumped from 420 W to 800 W reducing BOS costs. Don't you think the people building the various North Sea interconnector cables have learnt anything about making cables cheaper and with the falling price of batteries it is possible by putting a battery at either end of the cable to reduce the cable size and still meet demand at the other end so how do you, me or anyone know enough to call the proposal ridiculous

I also doubt the feasibility of Sun Cable and the Pilbarra hydrogen hub. However people who are far more successful at building new businesses and knowledgeable than you or I think it is worth sinking many millions into preliminary studies. So just maybe they see a possibility that you don't. If they are wrong they have dropped 1-2% of their net worth. If they are right they may double their wealth and reduce energy costs and emissions for many parts of Asia.

If you want more respect start out by showing a bit yourself   .  

Reference electric cars,how do you keep warm in them if they are used in really cold climates? My laptop only gets lukewarm as the battery discharges.

[NickW + 2,714]

5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Wrong again. Japan has terrific off shore wind and that is what is relevant..

Its solar isn't bad either. Mid Japan and South Korea are roughly equivalent to Northern Italy. With currently technology 1m2 of panels on a south facing perspective will give approximately 1400 kwh a year. 

https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/tools.html#PVP

https://globalsolaratlas.info/map?c=25.244696,117.246094,3&s=44.715514,10.546875&m=site

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Is there wind on the west side?  No.  Floating wind turbines proposed to maybe be lower their cost down to 3x the cost of sea mount or shallow sea mountings, who knows how much greater than land, and power cables do not float 

Please, do tell us more, your reasoning is brilliant and ability to read a basic wind map is amazing. 

The average wind speeds on the west side are around 7 m/s average at 150 metres. Its by no means exceptional but thats good enough for offshore especially as cost per MW falls. 

https://globalwindatlas.info/

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by NickW

[pfarley@bigpond.net.au + 42]

2 hours ago, Richard D said:

Reference electric cars,how do you keep warm in them if they are used in really cold climates? My laptop only gets lukewarm as the battery discharges.

Your Laptop runs at about 50-200 W. An EV runs at about 25-80 kW. There are three ways .

• The electric motor inverter and batteries on most EVs are liquid cooled and generate 1.5-6 kW of waste heat that is taken away by the coolant and can be passed through a fan forced heat exchanger just like an ICE car. The difference is that in an ICE car 95% of the waste heat is disposed of through the radiator and the exhaust pipe.
• resistive heating and a fan just like the little blower heaters found in every Walmart or
• More recently a heat pump.

Some vehicles combine two or even three of these techniques

[pfarley@bigpond.net.au + 42]

7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

I'll put your statement right up there with the biggest absurd statements greenies have ever made

solar/wind potential of those two countries is beyond hopeless.  1500 hours a year and half is in the summer leaving 3 months with zero.  Oh wait, just like all other northern/southern areas far from the equator... As for wind, both have diddly for wind and only Japan has a tiny bit way up north if you count the sea as a possibility as Japan is very hilly, so if you call gusty, destroyers of all things, main bearings, hilltops wind sites... uh, ok before one considers the horrible expense of placing the turbine there to begin with...

I suppose that is why Japan already has nearly 60 GW of solar and Mitsubishi has just started a Japanese joint venture with Vestas and Macquarie bank has also set up a venture to build offshore wind. You can't be as ignorant as you pretend to be so I suppose you just say the stuff you do to stir up rational people for laughs.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

5 hours ago, Richard D said:

Reference electric cars,how do you keep warm in them if they are used in really cold climates? My laptop only gets lukewarm as the battery discharges.

There is a manufacturer of electric school buses just outside Montreal.  The solution is to install a diesel-fired water heater, that circulates an antifreeze solution through radiators mounted inside the school bus body.  There is a 25-gallon fuel tank to run the heater unit.  The actual propulsion is by the battery pack, but to keep it warm, hey they burn diesel fuel in a small furnace!

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is a manufacturer of electric school buses just outside Montreal.  The solution is to install a diesel-fired water heater, that circulates an antifreeze solution through radiators mounted inside the school bus body.  There is a 25-gallon fuel tank to run the heater unit.  The actual propulsion is by the battery pack, but to keep it warm, hey they burn diesel fuel in a small furnace!

Its these situations where I do think PHEV's have their place. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

On 10/29/2020 at 7:33 PM, ronwagn said:

Anyone who lives in California will be paying higher and higher taxes and live under more and more regulations. Parts of it are still great to visit, and I often do, but overall it is a disaster IMHO. 

Not everyone who lives in California. The homeless will. Not. Pay. One. Thin. Dime. 

Nor will they follow any regulations. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

22 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Not everyone who lives in California. The homeless will. Not. Pay. One. Thin. Dime. 

Nor will they follow any regulations. 

No taxes and no regulations. Sounds like a right wing utopia. 🙂

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

59 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Not everyone who lives in California. The homeless will. Not. Pay. One. Thin. Dime. 

Nor will they follow any regulations. 

There are some threads that are worth time this is not one would be a opinion...California cannot even afford to build a light rail, it would seem they have to rebuild there grid...Ahh such is life.

From get the facts  https://hsr.ca.gov/get_the_facts/

To the final end of California Dream'n

https://www.wsj.com/articles/death-of-a-california-dream-11550101090

Edited November 1, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Rob Kramer + 696]

On 10/31/2020 at 8:44 AM, pfarley@bigpond.net.au said:

Your Laptop runs at about 50-200 W. An EV runs at about 25-80 kW. There are three ways .

• The electric motor inverter and batteries on most EVs are liquid cooled and generate 1.5-6 kW of waste heat that is taken away by the coolant and can be passed through a fan forced heat exchanger just like an ICE car. The difference is that in an ICE car 95% of the waste heat is disposed of through the radiator and the exhaust pipe.
• resistive heating and a fan just like the little blower heaters found in every Walmart or
• More recently a heat pump.

Some vehicles combine two or even three of these techniques

I generally dislike EV. But to be factual.  I think most have heat pumps (reversed A/C more or less) because they have electric A/C already. This is ontop of heated seats and steering wheel and a heater element for front window heat . In areas that full heat would be used EV is much less efficient. ICE only uses more for warm up and slushy roads and generally still has excess heat. EV uses additional energy to create heat. But with a coat and heated seats the cabin can be 19*c instead of 23* like an ICE would be and extra insulation lessens the difference.  Also heated wiper fluid or window ice melters that keeps the windows clear. 

Also EV can use heat generated from grid power if at a plug like at home or workplaces with plugs. Alot of additional grid demand. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 10/31/2020 at 10:24 AM, Jan van Eck said:

You think he's tough, try dealing with the hard-core Leftists in Vermont!

What Mark the Nark seems to forget, is that I am the most influential man on on the planet. If I say that Australia is gonna be a renewable energy superpower, ye all can take that to the bank boyz an galz!

[Wombat + 1,028]

6 minutes ago, Wombat said:

What Mark the Nark seems to forget, is that I am the most influential man on on the planet. If I say that Australia is gonna be a renewable energy superpower, ye all can take that to the bank boyz an galz!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lenny+kravitz+go+my+way&view=detail&mid=31DD66A0B5CD1F01058231DD66A0B5CD1F010582&FORM=VIRE0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dlenny%2bkravitz%2bgo%2bmy%2bway%26cvid%3d0aa271d6c5644fa8ad23afa520440dd0%26pglt%3d43%26FORM%3dANNTA1%26PC%3dU531

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 10/28/2020 at 10:41 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Yet another failed attempt to make a point. The disclosure act has no requirements for describing the standard equipment that makes up a car. Manufactures chose of their own free will to make California emissions cars standard equipment across all states.

The sticker must clearly and legibly state:

• The make, model, and serial or identification number of the car
• The final assembly point of the car
• The name, location, and place of business of the dealer to whom the car is to be delivered
• The name of the city or town at which the car is to be delivered to the dealer
• The method of transportation used in making delivery of the car, if the car is driven or towed from the final assembly point to the place of delivery
• The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for the car
• The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for optional equipment installed on the car
• The amount charged to the dealer for the transportation of the car to the place of delivery
• The total amount of the last three items listed above

The agreement is illegal since it is collusion of auto companies facilitated by the State of CA. It dictates national adoption of std equipment that increases the price of the cars on all consumers within and without CA, thus that agreement is invalid outside  CA and CA can not enforce it. Antitrust action can be brought against the signatory automakers and criminal charges against the CA negotiator signed on the contract. This is an act of CA claiming a US national jurisdiction through the ruse of a "voluntary agreement" so is illegal and the auto makers can't face repercussions from ignoring it.

If someone wants to challenge the deal, it is likely going to crumble in court, particularly if Federal gov. intervenes in it.

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 11/1/2020 at 3:00 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

No taxes and no regulations. Sounds like a right wing utopia. 🙂

Its a start.

[0R0 + 6,251]

19 hours ago, Wombat said:

What Mark the Nark seems to forget, is that I am the most influential man on on the planet. If I say that Australia is gonna be a renewable energy superpower, ye all can take that to the bank boyz an galz!

Mr powerful, you are obviously right here. Australia has the best combo of Solar and wind. Just that the copper miners and wire layers will be the ones making the money from selling power to S.E. Asia. They will still need LNG to back up the downtimes, far cheaper outlay of capital than the battery systems alternative.