War for Taiwan?

[Boat + 1,325]

On 12/7/2020 at 12:44 AM, ronwagn said:

My concern is people living under totalitarian regimes. China trade should be minimized, not maximized. The evils of the CCP will not be reduced without weakening their power. They are the equivalent of Nazis and their goals are much more threatening in the long run. 

See China Stories: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wb2YoQGpSWTz32ljsiA_ey6FLVqc2Dpe7Fnpiqn9lBs/edit

While I supported Trumps tarrifs against China he wasn’t clear enough about what China needs to change and what it will cost them if they don’t. Get-er-done. List the issues on a timeline with the consequences for noncompliance. Get your allies involved and broadcast your backbone to the world. 

[Mr. Peabody + 1]

On 11/8/2020 at 3:26 AM, frankfurter said:

For all of 2020, the USA govt and media has very strong rhetoric against China, and has now implemented a wide array of sanctions. China has responded with strong rhetoric and a few sanctions. China has desired to regain total control of Taiwan: whereas the USA has desired to prevent this. How such a conflict will end, and when, is moot at this time. But it raises key questions.

If China sends troops to Taiwan, are Americans prepared for a war with China to "liberate" Taiwan? How would this play out for Americans? Any war with China will be on a massive scale, and nuclear: unprecedented in history. Are Americans prepared for their massive deaths from such a war? What about the nuclear fallout that will poison the air and ocean for unknown time?  What would Americans hope to gain: there is simply nothing of value in Taiwan for America. China can retaliate to ensure America is on the receiving end of nuclear missiles. etc.

So let's hear from Americans.  Are you prepared to fight the most costly, the most deadly, most destructive war in history over an island of no value to you?

 

 

Hey FRANKIE,  if you a member of the CCP then why hide what you are?  The last great war began with a pro-genocidal regime.  You are looking for a honest reply from a person who is not American and embraces peace.  So here it is...The PROC concentration camps, organ harvesting and new crematoria look eerily familiar and likely move the world closer to war. 

How do you square that circle, my friend? 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:47 PM, John Foote said:

Most of the chips in China won't be leading edge design, and yes, China is on a fab building spree like the world has never known. But it will be five years before it really starts to impact.

You can build all the fabs you want, unless you have the cutting edge machines and expertise to fill them up it's really a wasted investment. SMIC has been around for some time now and they need state support to stay in business. A bunch more fabs of SMIC's caliber won't mean anything. It's no different than all those coal power plants that run at half capacity yet more get built every day.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing

[Kc2021 + 2]

USA will back all Asia. Except china. They will look at Japan. there will be a huge mining explosion and tech to make Africa great. a Horn of plenty will explode growth. To have this fourth revolution oil and gas will power us in to a immense transformation. 

[Hotone + 412]

On 12/7/2020 at 2:44 PM, ronwagn said:

My concern is people living under totalitarian regimes. China trade should be minimized, not maximized. The evils of the CCP will not be reduced without weakening their power. They are the equivalent of Nazis and their goals are much more threatening in the long run. 

See China Stories: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wb2YoQGpSWTz32ljsiA_ey6FLVqc2Dpe7Fnpiqn9lBs/edit

Why do you imagine that China is such an evil country?  Yeah right, people live under Communist oppression.

Listen to what this guy who lives in the second tier city of Qingdao, thinks of China, and it may shock you.

I see foreigners currently living in China enjoying their lifestyles, whether they are singles or families, like these 2 Vlogs that I follow

 

This Canadian guy records his local family lifestyle.  

They all live normal lives.  Nothing oppressive.  In fact, things are getting better every day for the people of China.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Hotone

[John Foote + 1,135]

4 hours ago, Hotone said:

They all live normal lives.  Nothing oppressive.  In fact, things are getting better every day for the people of China.

Yet last I noticed one of the few countries creating a rich elite, who often leave.

I've lived in a totalitarian country. Absolutely on a daily basis people work, play, and have fun. But there are lines you cannot cross and lies you have to accept. 

I'd take the improvements the Chinese managed in Taiwan over the improvements in the PRC everyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 11/28/2020 at 9:47 AM, John Foote said:

The gap, technically and in volume, chip production wise, is quite substantial, and US policy is working hard to keep it that way. You can't American made and ship to SMIC soon.

Imagine trying to do Fabs without AMAT, or Lam. You can't. A source of grief to the folks that buy the tools.

In efforts not widely publicized, but similar to how the US tries to keep Iranian oil off the market, foreign tool manufacturers are also under heavy pressure not to sell state-of-the-art. Maybe five years ago technology, but not state of the art. If someone, anyone, thinks you could knock off high end semiconductor manufacturing tools, it would have been done some time ago. It takes a few years and over the years it's gone from a garage industry and tools made by the original semiconductor companies, to highly specialized and full of theoretical PhD physicists with years in the business. Hard to clone them. And the process recipes are extremely well guarded quite well. TSMC figured out 8 nano meter and even Intell struggled, and buying from the same manufacturers. Leading edge tools are collaborative with the manufacturer as well. I've seen the specs on what goes to China. Mid-90s stuff. Still very impressive.

The strange relationship between Taiwan and the Mainland benefits them both. Nixon was right, above all money is the power they seek, and taking down Taiwan would cause economic disruptions hard to overstate. More for the West than China, but a definite lose/lose.

The IOT, internet of everything, that will explode the use of semiconductors. As BTO would say, you ain't seen nothing yet. The pie is expanding faster than ever. Tools that were expected to be obsolete 15 years ago, new ones are being built for raw capacity, and the factories making the tool are booked to capacity and looking to expand. 

Most of the chips in China won't be leading edge design, and yes, China is on a fab building spree like the world has never known. But it will be five years before it really starts to impact.

Your comments remind me acutely of the attitudes and comments of the British when anticipating the results of German R&D.

[frankfurter + 562]

6 hours ago, John Foote said:

Yet last I noticed one of the few countries creating a rich elite, who often leave.

I've lived in a totalitarian country. Absolutely on a daily basis people work, play, and have fun. But there are lines you cannot cross and lies you have to accept. 

I'd take the improvements the Chinese managed in Taiwan over the improvements in the PRC everyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. 

uh, perhaps you should state which country in which you lived: adds credibility, and we could then see your basis.  You are entirely incorrect to label China as totalitarian, and this displays your ignorance.  To say the social and economic conditions in Taiwan are greater than in China, only furthers your display of ignorance.  Taiwan is far below the level of China; a stroll down any street in TW will reveal this sharply.  And, TW is anything but a democracy: like the US, it is a plutocracy, ruled by 12 families who take turns at govt (the word mafia comes to mind).  Nothing in TW can be done or move without first going through sticky fingers.

re "lines".  The Chinese perspective on govt is very different from the indoctrinated west.  The west believes it is democratic, when it is nothing of the sort.  The Chinese have no false beliefs about their social systems. they know the stark realities, and accept; much like murcans accept their own systems, corrupt as they are.  To say the Chinese have drawn lines is as true as saying the murcans have drawn lines. If you think your govt is sooo altruistic, then why have you imprisoned Assange for no crimes, why is Snowden a fugitive, why was Manning persecuted for double jeopardy, and very much more? 

Judge not, lest ye be judged.  These words, and others to same effect, appear in all religious texts: Christian, Judean, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, and more.  If more people in the world could uphold such basic respect, we might find ways to resolve our petty differences and save ourselves from ourselves.  You murcans hold yourselves to be the world leaders, so let's start with you, shall we? 

 

 

[Boat + 1,325]

19 hours ago, frankfurter said:

uh, perhaps you should state which country in which you lived: adds credibility, and we could then see your basis.  You are entirely incorrect to label China as totalitarian, and this displays your ignorance.  To say the social and economic conditions in Taiwan are greater than in China, only furthers your display of ignorance.  Taiwan is far below the level of China; a stroll down any street in TW will reveal this sharply.  And, TW is anything but a democracy: like the US, it is a plutocracy, ruled by 12 families who take turns at govt (the word mafia comes to mind).  Nothing in TW can be done or move without first going through sticky fingers.

re "lines".  The Chinese perspective on govt is very different from the indoctrinated west.  The west believes it is democratic, when it is nothing of the sort.  The Chinese have no false beliefs about their social systems. they know the stark realities, and accept; much like murcans accept their own systems, corrupt as they are.  To say the Chinese have drawn lines is as true as saying the murcans have drawn lines. If you think your govt is sooo altruistic, then why have you imprisoned Assange for no crimes, why is Snowden a fugitive, why was Manning persecuted for double jeopardy, and very much more? 

Judge not, lest ye be judged.  These words, and others to same effect, appear in all religious texts: Christian, Judean, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, and more.  If more people in the world could uphold such basic respect, we might find ways to resolve our petty differences and save ourselves from ourselves.  You murcans hold yourselves to be the world leaders, so let's start with you, shall we? 

 

 

Your so wrong about the US. We know the rich rule policy and the Supreme Court even passed laws saying corporations should be treated like people. It’s fine for big money to be used for influence. We continuely make movies about the winners and losers in the competitive world of millionaires and billionaires. 
When your over 20 trillion in debt and run on tax breaks for the rich and win, your Trump. 
The best part of our system is power is fleeting. Billionaires do compete. Laws today can be changed tomorrow. Someday when the interest on the debt cuts deeply into spending......... But no, this isn’t China, both sides get a lawyer.

[Kc2021 + 2]

True words. From A Canadian bystander. We're simply trying to let you know ccp must be caput if it wants to succeed. It's time to get real ccp.begin treating manlind with dignity of every life. Stop organ harvesting. Stop torturing people of Faith's.Be honest an prosper. Free your internet. People will thank you and respect you and not fear you.You will pay for the covid cover up.However your nation will overcome if you go full on dignity and freedom for all.

 You will prosper with honest hard work. People want to pursue there dream and be free to choose. Help in everyway brings success.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

The Chinese people I have met have all been kind, open, warm, and generous. The CCP is the antithesis of all these traits.

The difference between perceived democracies and communist countries is that the people can change the political direction of their country, the laws that are made and the freedoms or not they choose to live by. Thats never going to happen for 1.4 billion Chinese people unless they overthrow the CCP by force.

Although the current fiasco in USA would somewhat undermine what I have just said.

[frankfurter + 562]

3 hours ago, Kc2021 said:

True words. From A Canadian bystander. We're simply trying to let you know ccp must be caput if it wants to succeed. It's time to get real ccp.begin treating manlind with dignity of every life. Stop organ harvesting. Stop torturing people of Faith's.Be honest an prosper. Free your internet. People will thank you and respect you and not fear you.You will pay for the covid cover up.However your nation will overcome if you go full on dignity and freedom for all.

 You will prosper with honest hard work. People want to pursue there dream and be free to choose. Help in everyway brings success.

reminder; the topic of this thread is whether Americans would go to war against China over Taiwan.  As you are not American, you are speaking out of turn, ignorantly and self-righteously so.

 

[frankfurter + 562]

20 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

The Chinese people I have met have all been kind, open, warm, and generous. The CCP is the antithesis of all these traits.

The difference between perceived democracies and communist countries is that the people can change the political direction of their country, the laws that are made and the freedoms or not they choose to live by. Thats never going to happen for 1.4 billion Chinese people unless they overthrow the CCP by force.

Although the current fiasco in USA would somewhat undermine what I have just said.

yes, we have read your views prior. but, would you support your gov't going to war against China over Taiwan?

 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

30 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

yes, we have read your views prior. but, would you support your gov't going to war against China over Taiwan?

 

Your original question was nuclear war and the answer to that is NO!

I'm sick of Britain helping fight other people's wars and spill British soldiers blood overseas so NO to conventional war also. (its not our fight)

3 Questions for you

Would you want China to invade Taiwan in a land/tech grab and potentially initiate a war between China and USA?

Do the long term economic benefits for China outweigh the bloodshed of Chinese soldiers?

Would you welcome nuclear war on China's doorstep and the potential radiation and mass destruction that follows?

Edited December 14, 2020 by Rob Plant

[frankfurter + 562]

11 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Your original question was nuclear war and the answer to that is NO!

I'm sick of Britain helping fight other people's wars and spill British soldiers blood overseas so NO to conventional war also. (its not our fight)

3 Questions for you

Would you want China to invade Taiwan in a land/tech grab and potentially initiate a war between China and USA?

Do the long term economic benefits for China outweigh the bloodshed of Chinese soldiers?

Would you welcome nuclear war on China's doorstep and the potential radiation and mass destruction that follows?

well, since you ask... I am not in favour of a war.  TW was taken from China by force, and by force has been sustained by an imperial power. Remove the imperial power, and the peoples would come to a peaceful resolution. But as we stand now, the USA wishes fervently to place nuclear-capable offensive weapons in TW, which will be pointed in one direction only. Also, the USA is covertly placing its military personnel in TW to operate such weapons. Thus, TW is being converted into a US military base, for one purpose only. Given PRC has never relinquished its claim of sovereignty over TW, the US action is, in substance, an invasion. No country could accept this, and any country with the means would repel the invaders. PRC has the means, has not accepted, has protested, and has requested the USA reverse its actions, but to no avail; the US is determined to arm and place its military in TW. So the issue you imply is not whether China or TW want a war, but whether the USA wants a war in the attempt to maintain its imperial power over TW. The question is whether Americans would support a war over nothing of value to the US, when the war would escalate quickly to encompass the Asian Pacific region and become nuclear near instantly. From this forum and others, seemingly Americans, British, Australians do support a war to further their imperial dreams.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

5 hours ago, frankfurter said:

From this forum and others, seemingly Americans, British, Australians do support a war to further their imperial dreams.

No I dont see that at all and as per my previous post have stated NO repeatedly and I'm British. Which British person on this thread has advocated war?? Go ahead name that person!

Your view on Taiwan is somewhat biased wouldn't you say?

I frankly dont care whether its under Chinese CCP control or whether it remains an autonomous state, however what I would say is that there appears zero will on behalf of the Taiwanese people to become a Chinese province controlled by the CCP!

Because its not the will of those people to be ruled by China then it would be wholly wrong on the part of China to take over their country. And yes it would be a military takeover as the rest of the world recognise that Taiwan is a self governing country in its own right. China would be breaking international law.

Your argument that it was once part of China and should be again is ridiculous. Thats like saying Germany France etc should be part of Italy because it used to be once upon a time, or that India should be part of the UK, its nonsense and you know it.

The fact that USA forces are there is one solely of protecting the Taiwanese people's rights to remain an autonomous country under mounting aggression from China. America does not need or want a war over this especially at present, its actions are one of a peace keeping nature not an aggressive nature as you purport.

You'll probably come back with some more nonsense about China's sovereign right to Taiwan. They moved on a long time ago get over it!

The only person on this thread who keeps asking the question regarding war is you, why is that?

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

19 hours ago, frankfurter said:

But as we stand now, the USA wishes fervently to place nuclear-capable offensive weapons in TW, which will be pointed in one direction only. Also, the USA is covertly placing its military personnel in TW to operate such weapons.

Are US military personnel in Taiwan interacting with govt officials working on defensive strategy in case your CCP attacks, most likely.

Is the US planning on putting nuclear missiles on Taiwan like you claim, not a chance in hell. US nukes in Taiwan has got to be the biggest nonsense claim you've ever made. 

I'm guessing this is the new CCP line of justification we'll be hearing from now until invasion day. After all, the PLA would have to stop the USA from placing these fantasy nukes in Taiwan just like the US stopped the Soviets from placing real nukes in Cuba.

Wow franky, now your country's going to reverse engineer the Cuban missile crisis? 

[frankfurter + 562]

16 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

No I dont see that at all and as per my previous post have stated NO repeatedly and I'm British. Which British person on this thread has advocated war?? Go ahead name that person!

Your view on Taiwan is somewhat biased wouldn't you say?

I frankly dont care whether its under Chinese CCP control or whether it remains an autonomous state, however what I would say is that there appears zero will on behalf of the Taiwanese people to become a Chinese province controlled by the CCP!

Because its not the will of those people to be ruled by China then it would be wholly wrong on the part of China to take over their country. And yes it would be a military takeover as the rest of the world recognise that Taiwan is a self governing country in its own right. China would be breaking international law.

Your argument that it was once part of China and should be again is ridiculous. Thats like saying Germany France etc should be part of Italy because it used to be once upon a time, or that India should be part of the UK, its nonsense and you know it.

The fact that USA forces are there is one solely of protecting the Taiwanese people's rights to remain an autonomous country under mounting aggression from China. America does not need or want a war over this especially at present, its actions are one of a peace keeping nature not an aggressive nature as you purport.

You'll probably come back with some more nonsense about China's sovereign right to Taiwan. They moved on a long time ago get over it!

The only person on this thread who keeps asking the question regarding war is you, why is that?

Happy to know Britain has "moved on", in your opinion, and is very unlikely to support a war over Taiwan.  But, why is Britain sending warships into the waters claimed by China and TW?

Thanks for expressing your views, consistent with the western doctrine, but rather ignorant, sorry to say.  No, the parties have not moved on, to use your words.  Your analogy is very incorrect.  For EU history, territory was held and released by war, true, but the resolution occurred by treaties: ie the warring parties agreed to the new borders.  For China, TW was carved away by foreign imperial powers by force and remains so to this day. China has never accepted this result and has never signed a treaty with TW to relinquish China's sovereignty.  Re your claim the TW people will fight for independence... well they might.. or might not. The peaceful means is to start with a plebiscite in TW. TW has never held a plebiscite.  Why do suppose TW has not?

 

[frankfurter + 562]

3 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Are US military personnel in Taiwan interacting with govt officials working on defensive strategy in case your CCP attacks, most likely.

Is the US planning on putting nuclear missiles on Taiwan like you claim, not a chance in hell. US nukes in Taiwan has got to be the biggest nonsense claim you've ever made. 

I'm guessing this is the new CCP line of justification we'll be hearing from now until invasion day. After all, the PLA would have to stop the USA from placing these fantasy nukes in Taiwan just like the US stopped the Soviets from placing real nukes in Cuba.

Wow franky, now your country's going to reverse engineer the Cuban missile crisis? 

Seems like all murcans, you cannot state anything without first attacking.

I have heard the likes of your story 60 years prior. The US put missiles into Israel, never to be nuclear, yet Israel is now nuclear armed.  The missiles scheduled for delivery soon are nuclear capable, this is fact. China is not seeking another Cuban crisis. The USA seeks another such crisis: this is a tactic to place immense pressure upon China, so to force China to kneel before the great, the indispensable USA. So, strangey-baby, your leaders are dinosaurs using stone age tactics... will not work. If anyone pointed a gun at you, what would you do? 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

36 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

The missiles scheduled for delivery soon are nuclear capable, this is fact.

Please name the nuclear capable missiles the US is intent on placing in Taiwan? If you are privy to such information please elaborate on your knowledge.

36 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

The US put missiles into Israel, never to be nuclear, yet Israel is now nuclear armed.

The US never "put" missiles in Israel, at most the US sold some types of missiles to Israel that are non-nuclear. Israel developed their own domestic ballistic missile and nuclear program. Israel is a Jewish state therefore they are well stocked with Jewish scientists. If you knew anything about the history of the atomic bomb you would realize Jewish scientists and nuclear development is like fish to water.

I would be shocked if Israel didn't utilize a well established network of Jewish physicists to create a nuclear program and ensure their countrie's existence. Keep pushing Taiwan and they might just form their own endogenous nuclear program to fend off your CCP. If North Korea could create a home grown nuclear program Taiwan sure can. You keep acting like the Taiwanese (mostly your fellow Han Chinese) don't have the will to defend themselves. They do and they will.

36 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Seems like all murcans, you cannot state anything without first attacking.

Also please point out the part of my post where I "attacked" you?

Edited December 16, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

6 hours ago, frankfurter said:

But, why is Britain sending warships into the waters claimed by China and TW?

Oh you mean international waters that we have every right to sail in but ones that China are claiming for themselves (can you see the common theme yet?)

If you consider my views ignorant due to Western doctrine as you say, then why are you asking the question to all Westerners whether they would go to war over Taiwan? You are clearly wasting your time by your own logic as all our views are ignorant as we have been brainwashed by Western doctrine. Maybe take 2 or 3 steps back and actually stop to think for yourself instead of letting CCP doctrine cloud your judgement!  If you did you would come across as far more credible believe me.

So do you refute that Taiwan is an internationally recognised country and that China would be breaking international law if it set 1 unwelcome military foot on their shores? If so please explain your reasoning here.

I think China's and the CCP actions against Hong Kong recently, and the people's uprising to try to protect their freedoms (which they had under British rule) is stark warning to those Taiwanese people and as @Strangelovesurfing says they wont give their country up without a fight!

If you want war then invade Taiwan and see what happens. If you do then you provoke not only Taiwan, USA etc etc but the whole United Nations. China is rapidly becoming a pariah state in International terms following the pandemic, this would only stoke the fire.

 

 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

I would add 1 thing that once a nation has tasted and experienced freedom they never ever want anything else.

This may be a bad analogy but to me freedom is like driving your first car with aircon, you wonder why the hell you didn't buy the car sooner and you would never buy another car again that didn't have it.

The Chinese people are lovely people but they cant miss what they have never experienced, Hong Kong and Taiwanese people have and they don't ever want to give that up.

[JAMES WALTER GOOCH 0]

Huuuuuuge!!!!!!!

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

On 12/14/2020 at 7:11 AM, frankfurter said:

reminder; the topic of this thread is whether Americans would go to war against China over Taiwan.  As you are not American, you are speaking out of turn, ignorantly and self-righteously so.

 

Ok i do believe it is time for China to take its fleet to Taiwan and demonstrate this power to the world...So if you would be so kind as to exposing your might...I for one grow quite tired of this that and the other thing. Yes Mr. Frankfurter it is time to get on the boat or get off, everyone is tired of waiting.