Is it time to talk about Hydrogen?

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:15 AM, Hiten Shah said:

Fundamental difference between Hydrogen  and Other Fuels Hydrogen can be produced on demand and at site. Hence using Technology it’s possible to reduce storage and transportation loss. Hence efficiency can be greatly increased. Beauty of Hydrogen is we don't need large hydrogen production for economies of scale. We can have mini Electrolysers at different locations. 

Here's what is known as a dead end. Electrolysis has a net energy ratio of 70%, meaning for every watt of power you put into making the hydrogen, you might recover 7/10ths of a watt back. Mini generators are likely to be Worse, not better. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, Bob D said:

Platinum has been on a tear lately relative to Gold and Silver in the Precious Metals space.

Can anyone confirm that Platinum is or is not involved in the Hydrogen Energy process?

Ask @Rustyman but it sounds like it to me. I'm going to say platinum is likely more readily accessible than Ru 

[Bob D + 562]

@Rustyman   Is Platinum required in the Hydrogen Energy process??

Edited December 7, 2020 by Bob D

[Hiten Shah + 22]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Here's what is known as a dead end. Electrolysis has a net energy ratio of 70%, meaning for every watt of power you put into making the hydrogen, you might recover 7/10ths of a watt back. Mini generators are likely to be Worse, not better. 

70% recovery and zero transport loss and minimum storage from excess renewable energy which goes waste is a good number 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Hiten Shah

[dgowin + 43]

The State of Texas curtails 19 Terrawatts of Wind Power every year. If we could store half that as hydrogen underground that would be a good thing for Texas.

[Hiten Shah + 22]

https://www.ft.com/content/190fe54f-8b14-4140-b18d-54295aa2b863

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https://www.ft.com/content/190fe54f-8b14-4140-b18d-54295aa2b863

10 A consortium of energy companies has joined forces in an effort to drive the cost of so-called green hydrogen below $2 per kilogramme — the price at which they estimate the eco-friendly gas will become an attractive alternative to fossil fuels. The group, which includes Denmark’s Orsted, Italy’s Snam, Spain’s Iberdrola, the Saudi-based ACWA Power, the Australian CWP Renewables, China’s Envision and the Norwegian chemical’s company Yara, is aiming to lower prices by boosting their combined output of green hydrogen to 25 gigawatts by 2026, a 50-fold increase over present minimal levels. Green hydrogen, which is produced through the electrolysis of water using renewable power, is a significant part of the EU and UK plans to achieve the reductions in emissions set out in the Paris climate accord.

[Vivian Fulk + 17]

Regarding investing in hydrogen or any other energy, this seems related: https://gofossilfree.org/ny/divestnewyork/  

BREAKING: New York State’s $226 billion pension fund will divest from the riskiest oil and gas companies and decarbonize by 2040BREAKING: New York State’s $226 billion pension fund will divest from the riskiest oil and gas companies and decarbonize by 2040

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,132]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:31 AM, Hiten Shah said:

70% recovery and zero transport loss and minimum storage from excess renewable energy which goes waste is a good number 

70% for electrolysis and then you have to multiply by 60% per a compression loss ratio per kg for storage.  No one is going to store H2 at 1barr

Edited December 9, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Hiten Shah + 22]

Green and blue hydrogen investments to jump in 2021

• OUTLOOK & STRATEGY

December 9, 2020, by Adnan Bajic

Hydrogen production is expected to see a significant hike in investment in 2021, as more hydrogen projects get the green light. 

Market intelligence provider Fitch Solutions noted that increasingly stringent emissions laws have driven plans to develop commercial-scale hydrogen production capacity. 

Overall, Fitch Solutions expect to see a clear increase in the number of blue and green hydrogen projects in its key projects database over 2021.

Fitch Solutions Hydrogen Projects Database

Electrolyser projects to boost green hydrogen

Green hydrogen is produced through the process of electrolysis using renewable power sources such as solar or wind, with net-zero carbon emissions. 

In past years, the vast amount of electricity required to produce hydrogen through electrolysis has made it prohibitively expensive, making up roughly 75 per cent of total production costs. 

As a result, Fitch highlights the downward trend in renewables costs as a key tenet of the hydrogen industry’s projected growth, strengthening the business case for investment in electrolyser facilities. 

The robust growth of non-hydropower renewables and the announcement of plans to ban carbon-based automotive fuels in major metropolitan areas in Western Europe over recent years has also increased the scope for green hydrogen production in these regions. Added to that, electrolyses’ scalability and ease of deployment can allow for industrial hydrogen consumers to develop near-site green hydrogen production capacity with renewables PPAs, allowing for better hydrogen price control. 

Thus, Fitch foresees a growing pipeline of green hydrogen projects emerging over 2021, traceable by the announcement of new electrolyser projects.

Blue hydrogen to pick up with industry momentum

Blue Hydrogen: Blue hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, the predominant source being natural gas. 

Blue hydrogen has two distinct advantages over green hydrogen, those being lower electricity demand and the inclusion of carbon capture and storage (CCS), which distinguishes blue (low carbon) hydrogen from grey hydrogen. 

While it eliminates the need for robust renewables growth as a pre-requisite; the high capital and operational costs, necessity for reliable natural gas supplies, and the relatively rare geological conditions necessary for CCS make blue hydrogen comparatively less accessible on a global scale than green hydrogen. 

Blue hydrogen is considered ‘low-emitting’ meaning that its production is not completely without carbon emissions, though it does fall well within emissions limits in most states globally. Added to that, its lower cost compared to green hydrogen may offer markets a way to control initial hydrogen costs as the industry grows to a point where economies of scale make green hydrogen more cost-competitive. 

With this, Fitch expects to see a rising number of blue hydrogen production projects announced over 2021, as the industry picks up momentum

[dgowin + 43]

They will invest in Green hydrogen with 19TW per year of free electric power! (Source: ERCOT of Texas, Average amount of Curtailed Wind Power per year 19 Trillion Watt Hours)

Up to 70% of the cost of electrolysis and compression is just for electricity.

When the wholesale cost of electric power dips below $20 per MWH you can produce industrial scale green hydrogen for less than $2.00 per kg. The key to making this practical is storage on a large scale. Conocophillips and Praxair store large quantities of hydrogen underground in Texas for Oil Refining and Ammonia production. They've been doing this for 50 years.

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

You don't use hydrogen for short term storage you use it for long term storage. The 3 gorges dam could generate an extra 52TWh a year, 76% capacity factor instead of the current 50% capacity factor, if you had to buy that ammount of storage at 25-35U$D, the price of pumped storage, pumped heat, or very advanded future batteries it would cost 1.28 to 1.8 Trillion U$D, and would take a 1000 years to payback.(supposing you sell a MWh for 25U$D) 

You could in theory generate more energy that the electricity input if you use a very high temperature heat pump that heats a SOEC to 1200°C extracting heat from the atmosphere to pump it into the electrolyzer, if you go to 26MWh/Ton then you can burn that hydrogen in a gas turbine at 100% cycle efficiency, using depleted wells for storing hydrogen

[Hiten Shah + 22]

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/photocatalyst-that-can-split-water-into-hydrogen-and-oxygen-at-a-quantum-efficiency-close-to-100/

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 12/7/2020 at 9:26 AM, Bob D said:

Platinum has been on a tear lately relative to Gold and Silver in the Precious Metals space.

Can anyone confirm that Platinum is or is not involved in the Hydrogen Energy process?

Platinum is always going to valuable in the chemical catalysis / electrochemistry areas. A lot of inorganic chemistry research is focused on trying to find cheaper alternatives.

Personally, I would bet that palladium will be more important with regards to the hydrogen economy.  It's routinely used as a heterogeneous hydrogenation catalyst.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, Hiten Shah said:

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/photocatalyst-that-can-split-water-into-hydrogen-and-oxygen-at-a-quantum-efficiency-close-to-100/

Cool, but that is a damn expensive catalyst "Al doped - SrTiO3 with RhCr03."

The main goal of catalysis research is to find new iron or magnesium based catalysts.. Cheap, plentiful and nature has shown us it can work (hemoglobin, chlorophyll).

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Enthalpic

[KilonBerlin + 9]

Maybe for areas like... Norway for me as an European this is a energy and emission dream state... if you forget that they started to become (western) Europes largest or 2nd largest (maybe when UK Offshore was pre-peak and a while after peak) producer of oil and today the largest and unlike UK the produced natural gas goes to countries like... the UK, via Netherland or other Pipelines to Mainland Europe, Germany being a big customer as the Netherlands found with Groningen a field which changed their energy policy pretty much for decades, 

An driver who makes Videos for YouTube with presenting EVs, its/was(?) even the largest german Channel for that topic (got his 100k subs in September or so), he once tested such a Hydro... the BVG, Berlins public Transport Company already made in the 2nd half of the 2000's when oil prices seemed to rise higher than any skyscrapers a study with 4 small busses on a short route, not much traffic but it was chosen because of a Hydrogen source not far away if I remember right, it was in Spandau, in the Area with the Olympia Stadium but also the "Siemens-Stadt", they stopped the programm I think short before oil prices nominal peak so far or only a bit later, 

he tested now an offered car, they are expensive because of some special materials needed (Palladium? Platin? Gold/Silver?!), was ~165k €uro he drove around and found it ok after 2-3 tries to refill (high bar, but there are enough stations offering hydrogen all over germany already right now, "Problem" its expensive and the cars cost a fortune without offering the luxury or performance you expect for a ~200k USD car, as 165.000 now are ~201.340 USD and already have been much more, especially during the oil price rising phase we saw over 1,50 values per USD. 

The price for Germany will not be so quick lower as 55 kWh according to the information are needed to produce 1 Liter of Hydrogen, the car he had could take up something like 6.6 liters and had a "ok" range and that refilling takes 5-7 minutes incl. paying makes planning not necessary, like "I will drive 100km/h instead of 130 so I make it for sure without needing maybe a short reload" and yes for smaller cars 100, 130 and 160 can make huge differences, for tesla this would be maybe driving only 180 instead of 230 or so...I mean we have parts without tempo limit, dont know how many but there are speed/adrenaline tourists who come here to drive over 300km/h legal there

1 kWh = ~0,30xxx€ for private use, standard mix Berlin = 0.30 would be 0.36(6) US-$ per kWh, yea they raise the 3rd and 4th digit because people dont look at these as its below one cent... 55 * 0.36 = 19.80€, 55 * 0.3661 = 20.13(55)€! 6 Liters needed 330 kWh in production, that was without energy used after the production complex, really huge surplus of energy needed or the numbers were wrong?! the car with ~6.6 liters hydrogen which needed 353 kWh for production, however the BVG will try to mix an E-Bus combined with a fuel cell, hydrogen wasn't mentioned there but fuel cells (almost?) always run on fuel cell so far or?!

[dgowin + 43]

Looking at some of the previous posts, I think most people don't understand what hydrogens greatest challenge is. And at the same time hydrogens greatest asset as a energy storage medium. It is well known that One (1) kilogram of hydrogen is equal in energy content to One (1) U.S. Gallon of #2 diesel fuel. At the same time One (1) kilogram of hydrogen, at normal room pressure (sea level) occupies twelve thousands (12,000) liters of volume. That's the equivalent of 6,000 two liter bottles of soda. At the same time, in the air, hydrogen will disperse to the point it will not burn. Hydrogen of course is lighter than air and does not collect in low lying areas. 

Hence: in order for hydrogen to be useful its density must be increased. It must be compressed or liquified.

One pound of hydrogen contains 51,622 BTUs. Compressed.

One pound of Natural Gas contains 20,267 BTUs. Compressed.

One pound of crude oil contains 18,352 BTUs.

One pound of gasoline contains 18,679 BTUs.

One pound of diesel contains 18,397 BTUs.

One pound of JP8 contains 18,320 BTUs.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,132]

21 hours ago, dgowin said:

One pound of crude oil contains 18,352 BTUs.

One pound of gasoline contains 18,679 BTUs.

One pound of diesel contains 18,397 BTUs.

One pound of JP8 contains 18,320 BTUs.

NIT: never mind

Edited December 31, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com