One drawback of an EV . . . .

[BLA + 1,666]

The cost of car insurance for a Tesla ranges between $4,000 to $5,000 year.

It's due to the high cost to repair when involved in an accident.

Due to Tesla design it's extremely easy to total the vehicle.  Complete loss.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

You'll recall I made this same argument in the JayD police car propagandist discussion. He blew it off. He blows a lot of things off. Just sayin

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

3 hours ago, BLA said:

The cost of car insurance for a Tesla ranges between $4,000 to $5,000 year.

It's due to the high cost to repair when involved in an accident.

Due to Tesla design it's extremely easy to total the vehicle.  Complete loss.

 

It's not anywhere near that expensive.   Even in Canadian money it's less than 2000/year.

 

https://www.ratelab.ca/insurance/car/tesla/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/auto-insurance-for-model-3-in-canada.114598/

What Does It Cost to Insure a Tesla?

The Tesla Model S is a popular model in Canada, Check out some sample auto insurance quotes.   

1. $115.08 / month, $1,381 / year
2. $104.16 / month, $1,250 / year
3. $109.58 / month, $1,315 / year
4. $113.33 / month, $1360 / year
5. $106.66 / month, $1280 / year

Edited November 16, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

First site web search returned

[BLA + 1,666]

On 11/15/2020 at 10:32 PM, Enthalpic said:

 

It's not anywhere near that expensive.   Even in Canadian money it's less than 2000/year.

 

https://www.ratelab.ca/insurance/car/_tesla/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tnc/threads/auto-insurance

If that's true it's minimum liability if you damage or injure others or extremely high deductibles, not comprehensive with coverage of damage or loss of your Tesla..  If you damage or total your Tesla you are shit out of luck.  It all comes out of your pocket. Nobody is going to buy a new Tesla and not buy comprehensive insurance. 

The original Teslas electrified the ICE  by replacing with a single electric motor used a modified drive train.  Tesla Y design now incorporates three electric motors two to drive the front end and one to drive the rear axel (as opposed to Rivian 4 independent (quad motors) electric motors for 740 HP.  The Rivian SUV and Pickup can do a tank turn.  Check it out .

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzwM8KE2L3I

Thanks Ward for your research. Your link shows :

"The average cost of car insurance for a Tesla is $4,539 per year, based on our research. However, the price of your policy will depend on the model and trim you choose, your location and driving history, and the amount of coverage you choose."

That's "average".

Note: Tesla is proud of their next gen battery that will actually be part of the body or frame of the car.  (saying the Skate Board frame is passe' to counter Rivian SUVs and Pickups shipping 2021).

BUT think of the insurance nightmare.  Even some minor accidents could destroy the electrical battery system, the major cost of an EV.)

EVs are coming . Can't stop them .  .  .  but not as smooth as some believe. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BLA

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

5 hours ago, BLA said:

If that's true it's minimum liability if you damage or injure others not comprehensive with coverage of damage or loss of your Tesla.. 

I have never paid more than $300 for insurance... And that was this year... =(

It helps driving old crap... who knew

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Your title is drawback of an EV.  It should be drawback of expensive cars. I'm sure insurance on a Lamborghin isn't cheap.

@Ward what do you pay for insurance on your POS EV? 

Anyways, I clearly showed you that insuring a Tesla is not that expensive. Perhaps a little more than a ICE car at the same price point.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Enthalpic

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

Your title is drawback of an EV.  It should be drawback of expensive cars. I'm sure insurance on a Lamborghin isn't cheap.

@Ward what do you pay for insurance on your POS EV? 

Anyways, I clearly showed you that insuring a Tesla is not that expensive. Perhaps a little more than a ICE car at the same price point.

If you buy a matchbox throwaway car as it cannot be repaired as it is designed that way on purpose and TESLA currently holds a monopoly on parts etc, you pay throwaway monopolistic prices.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Just now, footeab@yahoo.com said:

If you buy a matchbox throwaway car as it cannot be repaired as it is designed that way on purpose and TESLA currently holds a monopoly on parts etc, you pay throwaway monopolistic prices.

Still that is not necessarily a drawback of EV's -  it's a drawback of expensive new stuff... the "bleeding edge."    Yes, for now, Teslas are just status symbols.

Furthermore, I hate to break it to you, but we live in a largely disposable product society. Capitalism requires constant production, consumption, and frequent replacement. 

Ask ward what his EV insurance is.  I bet it is near nothing unless he crashes a lot.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Anti-logic Ward won't post facts that disagree with his narrative. He drives an EV and knows it is cheap to insure.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

16 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Capitalism requires constant production, consumption, and frequent replacement.

That is a bald faced lie.  Capitalism is nothing but the voluntary willing exchange of goods/service for a price.  What you are describing are called monopolies/corruption/greed.

And yes, EV's will not be built on the TESLA model(already are) but if you observe how most car manufacturers are operating, they are nearly there themselves.  Try getting your hands on a car shop manual anymore.... it is IMPOSSIBLE or nearly so as they have arbitrarily increased the Cost by 10X==> 20X so the ONLY people who can afford said manual are car dealer repair shops.  This forces out all the small guys so parts become throwaway as the big guys don't care and can get away with fraud easier and do not have to worry about their BBB score and return customers as they have a captive market.... the OPPOSITE of capitalism, as the exchange of is NOT voluntary as they have no CHOICE but to go through a monopolisic architecture so they can survive. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Try getting your hands on a car shop manual anymore.... it is IMPOSSIBLE or nearly so as they have arbitrarily increased the Cost by 10X==> 20X so the ONLY people who can afford said manual are car dealer repair shops.  This forces out all the small guys so parts become throwaway as the big guys don't care and can get away with fraud easier and do not have to worry about their BBB score and return customers as they have a captive market.... the OPPOSITE of capitalism, as the exchange of is NOT voluntary as they have no CHOICE but to go through a monopolisic architecture so they can survive. 

If you want to DIY you rent the manual as a service, Toyota Service Manual. 

Contemporary cars have lots of sensors and computers so it's a good idea to get a hardware interface and software. Products like VXDiag handle that. For less than $100 you can get both the computer interface in addition to the factory service software for a single manufacturer. And you need a Windows laptop, of course. 

You can site scrape the entire service manual but I don't know if it is worth the effort. It's cheap to rent for two days -- or a month, if you want -- and manually download the relevant material. Plus you can see the latest service bulletins when you do that. As a total cost of your DIY repair $20 is nothing for factory service information. I'd even do it if I took my car to a repair shop. I'd print out the FSM pages and hand them to the mechanic. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BradleyPNW

[BradleyPNW + 282]

Anti-crash systems reduce insurance cost. EVs tend to have anti-crash because they're new. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

6 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That is a bald faced lie.  Capitalism is nothing but the voluntary willing exchange of goods/service for a price.  What you are describing are called monopolies/corruption/greed.

Short of bartering the exchange is done using money.  The way we create money and the fractional reserve banking system depends on continual growth.

 

 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That is a bald faced lie.  Capitalism is nothing but the voluntary willing exchange of goods/service for a price.  What you are describing are called monopolies/corruption/greed.

Sadly, some many people use the term "capitalism" incorrectly. Other people use the term "socialism" incorrectly.   What you describe is "free market economy". Free markets already existed prior to capitalism. Capitalism is investment of resources (capital) to improve productivity in the expectation of future return.   It's true that a free market and capitalism work very well with each other: "free market capitalism". Capitalism functions in monopolies and in over-regulated systems also. Unfortunately, when capitalism results in really large companies or powerful blocs, they distort the free market by forming monopolies and by lobbying or otherwise controlling the government to change the rules to favor large companies.

[NickW + 2,714]

15 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That is a bald faced lie.  Capitalism is nothing but the voluntary willing exchange of goods/service for a price.  What you are describing are called monopolies/corruption/greed.

And yes, EV's will not be built on the TESLA model(already are) but if you observe how most car manufacturers are operating, they are nearly there themselves.  Try getting your hands on a car shop manual anymore.... it is IMPOSSIBLE or nearly so as they have arbitrarily increased the Cost by 10X==> 20X so the ONLY people who can afford said manual are car dealer repair shops.  This forces out all the small guys so parts become throwaway as the big guys don't care and can get away with fraud easier and do not have to worry about their BBB score and return customers as they have a captive market.... the OPPOSITE of capitalism, as the exchange of is NOT voluntary as they have no CHOICE but to go through a monopolisic architecture so they can survive. 

Always found these useful for low level / intermediate car DIY

https://haynes.com/en-gb/?msclkid=1f2e173ba7d01a24bb22488f514e0e9b&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=(UK) Brand Related Terms&utm_term="Hayne manuals”&utm_content=Brand Terms - Exact Match

[BradleyPNW + 282]

Haynes and AllData would push you in the right direction if you had a decent amount of automotive repair experience. But they were notorious for incomplete and incorrect information. In my opinion, I think it's easier to repair a car now then it was in the past. 

Old car manufacturing wasn't really streamlined. They were kind of hacked together. New cars are more precise and logical in their assembly. They have computers that can identify faults or run automated tests. Vehicle quality has gone way up. 

We also have internet forums dedicated to car manufacturers and even specific vehicle models if you have a Camry or some other popular car. It's amazing how quickly you can find a repair solution through a repair forum. In the past, mechanics obtained their experience by working in the shop. Today, all that experience -- and more -- is contained in internet forums. Plus, people who post in repair forums are eager to help you when you run into a problem. 

I think there must have been a transition period from analog to digital that threw backyard mechanics for a loop so they started to hate the new technology. Repair knowledge was "gated" by industry tech services. You had to go to automotive repair seminars to keep up and pay dues to whatever your specialty was, e.g. Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association or the body shop associations, etc. Those organizations weren't nefarious, it was just the only way to efficiently distribute specialized knowledge. Mechanics had to go sit in rooms and listen to a teacher. They had industry magazines delivered and bought industry repair manuals. Today, backyard mechanics have immediate access to all that specialized information through the internet and search engines that lead you to the right answer. It is honestly amazing how much access we have to specialized knowledge and subject matter expertise that was extremely difficult and time consuming to acquire in the past.

Edited November 18, 2020 by BradleyPNW

[RichieRich216 + 454]

ONE DRAWBACK, Wake the hell up if you think the

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

15 minutes ago, BradleyPNW said:

Haynes and AllData would push you in the right direction if you had a decent amount of automotive repair experience. But they were notorious for incomplete and incorrect information. In my opinion, I think it's easier to repair a car now then it was in the past. 

Old car manufacturing wasn't really streamlined. They were kind of hacked together. New cars are more precise and logical in their assembly. They have computers that can identify faults or run automated tests. Vehicle quality has gone way up. 

We also have internet forums dedicated to car manufacturers and even specific vehicle models if you have a Camry or some other popular car. It's amazing how quickly you can find a repair solution through a repair forum. In the past, mechanics obtained their experience by working in the shop. Today, all that experience -- and more -- is contained in internet forums. Plus, people who post in repair forums are eager to help you when you run into a problem. 

I think there must have been a transition period from analog to digital that threw backyard mechanics for a loop so they started to hate the new technology. Repair knowledge was "gated" by industry tech services. You had to go to automotive repair seminars to keep up and pay dues to whatever your specialty was, e.g. Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association or the body shop associations, etc. Those organizations weren't nefarious, it was just the only way to efficiently distribute specialized knowledge. Mechanics had to go sit in rooms and listen to a teacher. They had industry magazines delivered and bought industry repair manuals. Today, backyard mechanics have immediate access to all that specialized information through the internet and search engines that lead you to the right answer. It is honestly amazing how much access we have to specialized knowledge and subject matter expertise that was extremely difficult and time consuming to acquire in the past.

Teenagers articulating....

[RichieRich216 + 454]

There is just One Drawback!

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

How odd I was under the impression federal welfare was over with in regards to EV's...maybe not?  Or more Fake News?

California adds $1,500 incentive for new EVs, total state + fed incentives now up to $13.5K

California adds $1,500 incentive for new EVs, total state + fed incentives now up to $13.5K

 

https://electrek.co/2020/11/17/california-adds-1500-incentive-for-new-evs-total-state-fed-incentives-now-up-to-14-5k-until-end-of-year/

Edited November 18, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

5 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

We also have internet forums dedicated to car manufacturers and even specific vehicle models if you have a Camry or some other popular car.

If you have a popular car with a common problem there is a You Tube video showing you all the steps.

[frankfurter + 562]

EVs have more than one 'drawback'. Has anybody researched the enviro damage caused by battery production and disposal? The nuclear power plants needed for gazzillions of watts needed to recharge millions of EVs? etc.

 

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 11/15/2020 at 7:01 PM, BLA said:

The cost of car insurance for a Tesla ranges between $4,000 to $5,000 year.

It's due to the high cost to repair when involved in an accident.

Due to Tesla design it's extremely easy to total the vehicle.  Complete loss.

Existing Teslas are crude first attempts, and the designs are rapidly evolving. Teslas are also still low-volume.

Let's see where insurance costs are at with the next generation.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

10 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Existing Teslas are crude first attempts, and the designs are rapidly evolving. Teslas are also still low-volume.

Let's see where insurance costs are at with the next generation.

My hunch is that insurance costs on those cars are going to continue to be high well into the future - because the insurers recognize one truth: the buyers of those cars can afford outside insurance premiums.  Insurance is like any  other product: it is priced according to the perceptions of the customer's ability to pay. 

You see costs start to come down when volumes are sufficient for aftermarket parts to start entering the marketplace.  On my low-volume BMW big sedan, the rear suspension is mounted on a sub-frame that in turn is connected to the unibody by various rubberized mounts.  It is a complex design, and over time the mounts deteriorate and the car takes on a set downwards.  That in itself would not be so bad but BMW, in order to lower its manufacturing costs by a few pennies, no longer makes the independent rear wheel alignment with two directional variables.  If the suspension sags then the wheels will tilt on the vertical axis and the tires will wear out really quick, with rapid wear on the inside tread.  Now the way to fix this is to install a new set of A-arm bushings in the upper control arms, and to install ride height rubbers over the rear shocks.  The bushings, that have this neat cam action to tilt the wheels back into position, cost $500 a set and are made by an independent vendor in Australia.  The height rubbers will raise that settled rear end platform by up to an inch and those parts are made in Novosibirsk, Russia, which is in the Siberia area. Since no shop wants to touch putting these in, I will do it in the garage next summer, probably take me a full month, but at least it will get properly fixed. 

You get into these problems because the BMW attitude is that its customers should not be riding around in old iron, but perpetually spring another hundred grand on something new at the dealership.  It is an arrogant attitude. The way capitalism resolves this attitude is for some entrepreneur to go into Eastern Europe, I would have picked the Czech Republic, and made a deal to import the Skoda sedan to the USA, where you have this utterly tough machine that delivers good performance and lasts forever.  Skoda ran into money problems with the re-integration of Europe and the collapse of its captive market, so it got sold off to Volkswagen, and now the Skoda is another over-priced VW (no surprise there).  But in the USA, four out of five car sales are used cars, precisely because the manufacturers have driven up the cost of buying their new product  (everything gets loaded up), and the insurance and taxes on new product puts that out of the reach of the ordinary folks  (who then buy the used stuff). 

Can you get into that business and build a low-priced car for the masses?  Probably not.  The USDOT has regulated new cars out of that price bracket.  For example, all new cars today require tire pressure monitoring systems, and back-up cameras. That costs money. Have a small rear-ender and you need a new camera set-up.  That costs money. That costs more insurance.  And that puts the cars out of the reach of first-time buyers who are not flush with cash.  Not like you can go buy a new 1954 Chevy with a straight 6 for less than $2,000, not these days.