Fast Car Charge Costs More Than Gas (?)

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/electric-car-driver-discovers-fast-charge-costs-gas/

I would show a Tesla, but this is what was with the article. What do you think. Will we end up paying as much or more for our transportation. Will we be wasting our time waiting for charging? Will electric cars be charged for road use like gasoline cars are? Overall pollution including mining for lithium? Other metals? 

 

Electric car driver discovers fast charge costs more than gas

Also cites need to 'spend over 200 hours annually' waiting for car

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

They need to standardize a common plug. Costs would then naturally decrease. If profits are large then more independent charging options will appear using a common plug. I expect to see people having charging stations in the front of their houses that they sell to people needing a charge.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

On 1/2/2021 at 4:18 PM, ronwagn said:

https://www.wnd.com/2021/01/electric-car-driver-discovers-fast-charge-costs-gas/

I would show a Tesla, but this is what was with the article. What do you think. Will we end up paying as much or more for our transportation. Will we be wasting our time waiting for charging? Will electric cars be charged for road use like gasoline cars are? Overall pollution including mining for lithium? Other metals?

Electric car driver discovers fast charge costs more than gas

Also cites need to 'spend over 200 hours annually' waiting for car

You show one car in one European location. Charges are not standardized, so each provider of a charging stations is free to charge whatever the market will bear. However, since most EV drivers do most of their charging at home, The cost of charging at a commercial charger is a small part of the total charging cost. When you charge at a commercial charger, you are usually paying for convenience. I have paid a little as zero ("free" charging while at Target) up to about $0.40/hWh (Tesla supercharger during peak hours).

Mining (and other materials) contribute to the total cost of a car and have nothing to do with the price charged by the charging provider, so that is a completely separate topic. The cost of a car battery module has decreased by nearly a factor of ten (89% decrease) in the last decade and will decrease further, especially if/when new battery tech removes the need for lithium, cobalt, and nickel and reduced the need for copper, and new (actually old) motor tech removes the need for magnets (cobalt, REEs, nickel). Again this has almost nothing to do with the charging price.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:00 PM, Strangelovesurfing said:

They need to standardize a common plug. Costs would then naturally decrease. If profits are large then more independent charging options will appear using a common plug. I expect to see people having charging stations in the front of their houses that they sell to people needing a charge.

Ron showed a car charging in Europe. Europe has standardized on one type of plug (CCS2) and basically all EVs sold in Europe, including Teslas, use that standard.  US Teslas use the Tesla plug, which is physically a lot smaller and IMO a better design. Tesla provides an adapter with the car to allow charging from the US standard Level 2 chargers, and will sell you an adapter to charge  a US Tesla from a CCS2 charger.

Charging standards appear to be converging faster than left-hand versus right-hand driving, which has continued to cost car makers and customers a lot of money over the last century.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol/

 

Norway horrified as new rates make EV charging prices higher than petrol

[markslawson + 1,057]

The article highlighted most of the problems of having large numbers of EVs on the road, with the lack of a standardised charger, in some countries, just being one. If you have a lot of EVs a bazillion charging stations will be required and even then a lot of time will be spent waiting for a charging point just so the traveler can get home, plus the time spent in recharging. Sure the EV can be recharged in the home garage - although the cost of the charger and the additional wiring required never seem to feature in the cost analyses one sees in the media - but an extraordinary of external stations would still be required.

The only way extensive use of EVs would work is where public transportation - electric trains and buses - is already comprehensive and convenient, combined with extensive used of, say, bicycles (both electric and old fashioned pedal).. then building enough charging stations might not be a problem. My understanding is that these conditions simply do not exist in American cities, except maybe parts of New York where I understand it is possible to do without a car altogether.  

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

4 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol/

Norway horrified as new rates make EV charging prices higher than petrol

The article says that Ionity is raising its rates. it is the the dominant charger company in Norway and perhaps in the EU as a whole.  Ionity is jointly owned by four big EU car companies, and they are deliberately trying to force their customers into one of several subscription plans. these companies have been fighting EVs in Norway for a long time, and losing. The upshot will be that anyone who can will charge at home or at other alternatives.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

4 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

The article says that Ionity is raising its rates. it is the the dominant charger company in Norway and perhaps in the EU as a whole.  Ionity is jointly owned by four big EU car companies, and they are deliberately trying to force their customers into one of several subscription plans. these companies have been fighting EVs in Norway for a long time, and losing. The upshot will be that anyone who can will charge at home or at other alternatives.

Yes we are in agreement, free marketing well kinda is taking place in the EU as a whole. The honeymoon period is over in regards to govt subsidies. It is a good thing the EU has adopted this course, they will either succeed or fail. 

I am not against green energy, i do however despise the public at large paying the bills for a few eccentric's living out their fantasy's. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

The article highlighted most of the problems of having large numbers of EVs on the road, with the lack of a standardised charger, in some countries, just being one. If you have a lot of EVs a bazillion charging stations will be required and even then a lot of time will be spent waiting for a charging point just so the traveler can get home, plus the time spent in recharging. Sure the EV can be recharged in the home garage - although the cost of the charger and the additional wiring required never seem to feature in the cost analyses one sees in the media - but an extraordinary of external stations would still be required.

The only way extensive use of EVs would work is where public transportation - electric trains and buses - is already comprehensive and convenient, combined with extensive used of, say, bicycles (both electric and old fashioned pedal).. then building enough charging stations might not be a problem. My understanding is that these conditions simply do not exist in American cities, except maybe parts of New York where I understand it is possible to do without a car altogether.  

The big problem will be selling EVs to people who cannot install a home charger. Once all homeowners have EVs, EV sales will drop a lot.

We already  have multiple actual examples of charging networks. We can use Tesla as a worked example. There are maybe a million Teslas on the road and they mostly charge at home or use Tesla-branded charging stations, and there is no indication of a shortage of stations. There are 20,000 Tesla V3 supercharger stations. That's a ratio of 50 cars per V3 station, and one home charger per Tesla car.  A home charger, installed, is about $1,000, and I would GUESS that a V3 supercharging stations costs Tesla about $50,000. Thus, each Tesla sold will require about $2,000 worth of charging infrastructure, half borne directly by the customer and half paid for at the V3 stations. Let's be pessimistic and assume the lifetime of both home chargers and V# superchargers is about the same as the lifetime of a Tesla car. I strongly suspect that the cars wear out faster.

I don't know how this compares to the infrastructure required to fuel ICE vehicles, but I would guess ICE fueling infrastructure is  more expensive per car.

[markslawson + 1,057]

21 hours ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

We already  have multiple actual examples of charging networks. We can use Tesla as a worked example. There are maybe a million Teslas on the road and they mostly charge at home or use Tesla-branded charging stations, and there is no indication of a shortage of stations.

Dan - I try to be patient but go back, look at your figures and sit down and think. Sure the very low numbers of EVs on the roads are not causing a problem at the moment. The one million figure you cite counts for little, even in California where most Teslas have been sold. If you hunt around for demographics on Tesla owners, you will also find that they are far wealthier and older than the average car owner and so better able to adapt their car use to indulge their hobby. The problem really comes when there are large numbers of working people all trying to charge at the same time. To respond with condescending nonsense about worked examples trying to prove that there really won't be a problem is ridiculous. Go down to the local shopping center and ask yourself what will happen when each car now going into the local petrol station has to wait perhaps half an hour. A major additional problem is that this alternate fueling network has to be set up an enormous cost. The fact that the per-car cost will be less is not particular relevant. Now Dan we've done this dance a few times. If you don't want to listen to reality that is up to you, but if you don't want to be bothered with that reality then don't challenge the obvious. Leave it with you..         

[RichieRich216 + 454]

Anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid, Fossil Fuels keep the World’s light’s on!

Any one that believes other wise look to California! The great green energy State that can’t keep the lights on.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Dan - I try to be patient but go back, look at your figures and sit down and think. Sure the very low numbers of EVs on the roads are not causing a problem at the moment. The one million figure you cite counts for little, even in California where most Teslas have been sold. If you hunt around for demographics on Tesla owners, you will also find that they are far wealthier and older than the average car owner and so better able to adapt their car use to indulge their hobby. The problem really comes when there are large numbers of working people all trying to charge at the same time. To respond with condescending nonsense about worked examples trying to prove that there really won't be a problem is ridiculous. Go down to the local shopping center and ask yourself what will happen when each car now going into the local petrol station has to wait perhaps half an hour. A major additional problem is that this alternate fueling network has to be set up an enormous cost. The fact that the per-car cost will be less is not particular relevant. Now Dan we've done this dance a few times. If you don't want to listen to reality that is up to you, but if you don't want to be bothered with that reality then don't challenge the obvious. Leave it with you..         

The driving public currently buys about 92 million vehicles per year. If all of them suddenly shifted to EVs, then each owner would spend $1000 for a home charger and the public charging providers would spend $1000 per vehicle to build out the charging net. That's $92 billion for home chargers and $92 billion for the network buildout each year. In reality, this obviously will not happen: it's what you call a thought experiment. It does demonstrate that the money will be there as and when needed. I do not understand why you do not think this is relevant. Tesla sells a car, sells the driver a charger, and builds one supercharger for every 50 cars sold. This is a successful, scalable business model.

Your analogy with petrol is incorrect. All ICE cars use public petrol stations for 100% of their fuel, but (essentially) all EVs use their own dedicated private chargers for a large percentage of their electricity. A petrol station is a lot more expensive per pump than a supercharger station is per hookup. I do not know what the ratio is. If an ICE car occupies a pump for 5 minutes while an EV occupies a hookup for 30 minutes, then the time ratio is 1:6 and you would need 6 times as many hookups as petrol pumps to maintain the same throughput. Thus, if the total cost of a pump is more than 6 times the total cost of a hookup, the pumps cost more. But this is silly because The EVs are on average using superchargers for less than a tenth of their total energy.

Tesla owner demographics are important. As I said earlier, It will be hard to sell an EV to anyone who does not have a private dedicated parking spot. This is a very big deal.  The minimum cost to electrify an on-street parking space will be high, so until a driver can 'lease" a dedicated on-street space, I doubt the driver will purchase an EV (unless the driver is a radical greenie). There are possible magical (i.e., unrealistic and not yet developed) solutions for this, but I don't think they will be in place soon enough to avoid this constraint on EV sales. Possibly the most elegant solution is to have your car self-drive to a parking garage that provides charging services. I suspect this is non-economic for anyone who already has free on-street parking.

[Coffeeguyzz + 454]

As a staunch booster of all things hydrocarbon - and fairly agnostic where electric/hybrid vehicles are concerned - I am in awe watching events rapidly taking place that seem poised to place electric vehicles that are powered by hydrogen fuel cells into strong position for widespread adoption in the next few years.

Countries and companies around the world, including in the San Diego area, are shipping hydrogen through existing nat gas pipelines in pilot projects.

Both the injection and recovery are somewhat simple processes.

While other technical and economic challenges remain - .ower coming hydrogen production costs being a biggie - many deep pocketed companies are forging ahead in anticipation of commercial rollout in ~5 years' time of some highly disruptive operations.

If/when they are successful, the ripple on consequences will be tectonic.

[specinho + 467]

On 1/13/2021 at 8:10 AM, RichieRich216 said:

Anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid, Fossil Fuels keep the World’s light’s on!

Any one that believes other wise look to California! The great green energy State that can’t keep the lights on.

There is a chart sent with the newsletter yesterday. It shows percentage of power supply or going off from various sources ( I can't recall perfectly in a quick glance, pardon me). The largest supplier might have been nuclear. Using a small quantity of material to generate a lot of heat for a long time. The second has been coal. Fossil fuel came in fourth, if not mistaken....

 

Since the key factors for global warming and climate change might be massive development, deforestation, and drastic increment of human population, hence, the most important solutions could be 

to cut back the rate of massive development and the rate of population increment, no??

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by specinho