Not Enough Electricity for Electric Vehicles

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2020/12/21/toyota-ceo-agrees-with-elon-musk-we-dont-have-enough-electricity-to-electrify-all-the-cars-n1222999

Wind and Solar cannot keep up with electricity demand only renewables used. RCW

Toyota CEO Agrees With Elon Musk: We Don't Have Enough Electricity to Electrify All the Cars

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

Not a problem we will merely follow China's lead. 

https://www.wired.com/story/china-is-still-building-an-insane-number-of-new-coal-plants/

 

China Is Still Building an Insane Number of New Coal Plants

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

6 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Not a problem we will merely follow China's lead. 

https://www.wired.com/story/china-is-still-building-an-insane-number-of-new-coal-plants/

 

China Is Still Building an Insane Number of New Coal Plants

Send Hunter over for some exploratory meetings and tell him to record the meetings (Not THOSE meetings, Hunter!  Damn kid.) since he has memory problems and otherwise won't be able to report what he was supposed to find out in the exploratory meetings.

[NickW + 2,714]

We have a similar issue in the UK

• The UK is planning to stop the sale of ICE light vehicles after 2035
• Ban gas heating in new builds from 2025
• Ban replacement of of gas / oil boilers from 2030/35

All this diverted demand goes onto electric

• The demand from an EV fleet is about 80TWh a year
• UK peak heating demand is currently 4x electrical generating capacity

To meet both of that there will have to be a hell of an investment in suitable baseload. If they rule out gas then it will have to be nuclear. Coal is out of the question.

 

On he demand side decent ground source heat pumps will give a COP of 4-5 but the capital cost is very high so I suspect most people will resort to Air source heat pumps or worst of all resistive electric heating. 

The UK has particularly badly insulated homes so a fair amount could be done here but most the low hanging fruit has already been picked - loft insulation and cavity wall. 

[specinho + 467]

14 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Not a problem we will merely follow China's lead. 

https://www.wired.com/story/china-is-still-building-an-insane-number-of-new-coal-plants/

 

China Is Still Building an Insane Number of New Coal Plants

you might have been falsely informed........ China is into building their own artificial Sun........ completing in few years time......

[NickW + 2,714]

One of the potential answers which would retain the use of gas, provide enough winter heat load and cut CO2 emissions would be a mass role out of micro CHP boilers to homes. 

These basically have a sterling engine that converts about 10% of the energy to electricity with the rest remaining as heat which can be used for heating and hot water. These are 90-95% efficient because they produce electricity and utilise the heat. The best CCGT plant are around 60%. Also peak electricity demand coincides with peak gas usage for heating so they work well together. 

Grid tie inverters are very cheap now (thank you solar) so easy to grid tie the CHP boiler to the grid. 

Can inject green hydrogen and biogas into the gas grid to further lower the CO2 footprint. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

One of the potential answers which would retain the use of gas, provide enough winter heat load and cut CO2 emissions would be a mass role out of micro CHP boilers to homes. 

These basically have a sterling engine that converts about 10% of the energy to electricity with the rest remaining as heat which can be used for heating and hot water. These are 90-95% efficient because they produce electricity and utilise the heat. The best CCGT plant are around 60%. Also peak electricity demand coincides with peak gas usage for heating so they work well together. 

Grid tie inverters are very cheap now (thank you solar) so easy to grid tie the CHP boiler to the grid. 

Can inject green hydrogen and biogas into the gas grid to further lower the CO2 footprint. 

Good thinking Nick. I have been a micro turbine fan since I first heard about them. 

What do you th ink about micro turbines for individual homes in America? They could be coupled with battery backup if the needed but it seems that they would provide plenty of electricity. If propane was used the home could be off the grid completely. The problem is that one would need qualified maintenance and/or exchange if the turbine needed service. It seems like that would be a problem in starting up unless still on the grid. 

Also, would they be practical in warm weather or just cold? They should be able to heat and cool a home with the proper sizing. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Good thinking Nick. I have been a micro turbine fan since I first heard about them. 

What do you th ink about micro turbines for individual homes in America? They could be coupled with battery backup if the needed but it seems that they would provide plenty of electricity. If propane was used the home could be off the grid completely. The problem is that one would need qualified maintenance and/or exchange if the turbine needed service. It seems like that would be a problem in starting up unless still on the grid. 

Also, would they be practical in warm weather or just cold? They should be able to heat and cool a home with the proper sizing. 

 

They would certainly be useful in those parts of the USA  where peak demand is driven by heating as heat and electrical demand go hand in hand.

• Grid fails,
• boiler stops.
• GTI disconnects from the grid.
• Boiler restarts Will need a battery back up to black start.
• have 1-1.5KW of electrical power. Enough to run the boiler, refrigeration, some lighting and a TV / PC. 

Less useful where peak demand is driven by cooling because the only demand for heat is for a small amount of hot water. 

Micro CHP can be propane. Also its relatively easy to wire a system to take the house off grid if the grid fails. Honda produce a small CHP unit based on a 4 stroke motorbike engine. It produces 2KW of electricity and 3KW of heat. More suited to hotter climates. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

3 hours ago, specinho said:

you might have been falsely informed........ China is into building their own artificial Sun........ completing in few years time......

 

Odd yet most anything is possible in today's world. I was told it would take that many coal plants to fireup this artificial sun. And of course Trump is the majority stockholder in these coal plants lets not let that one get by.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:19 PM, ronwagn said:

What do you th ink about micro turbines for individual homes in America?

0) Assuming you have the wind(vast majority do not)

1) They will drive you mad with their noise. 

2) Before said noise drives you mad you will drive yourself to insulate your home better and throw on more solar on your roof and maybe even your yard. 

3) You will install a true 2 stage wood stove and install insulated chimney liner down your old chimney, as burning wood just became far more relevant. 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 2/1/2021 at 1:29 PM, NickW said:

Less useful where peak demand is driven by cooling because the only demand for heat is for a small amount of hot water.

Not true, just need a different loop that uses the sun making hot water to use in phase conversion of a liquid to cool you.  Instead of using electricity to boil the liquid, you are using the sun to get the phase change. 

There is one problem with this system, requires a little extra water to run, as som

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

0) Assuming you have the wind(vast majority do not)

1) They will drive you mad with their noise. 

2) Before said noise drives you mad you will drive yourself to insulate your home better and throw on more solar on your roof and maybe even your yard. 

3) You will install a true 2 stage wood stove and install insulated chimney liner down your old chimney, as burning wood just became far more relevant. 

 

We are talking about gas fired micro turbines - home CHP units. 

CHP boilers - a comprehensive buyer's guide - TheGreenAge

 

But otherwise yes - small home based wind turbines are pretty much useless. 

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Not true, just need a different loop that uses the sun making hot water to use in phase conversion of a liquid to cool you.  Instead of using electricity to boil the liquid, you are using the sun to get the phase change. 

There is one problem with this system, requires a little extra water to run, as som

Ok that can be done but the circumstances I was talking about was the functionality of a home based CHP boiler fitted into the existing home infrastructure. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

We are talking about gas fired micro turbines - home CHP units. 

CHP boilers - a comprehensive buyer's guide - TheGreenAge

 

But otherwise yes - small home based wind turbines are pretty much useless. 

Doh!  How did I miss that?  🤣

[ronwagn + 6,290]

19 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

0) Assuming you have the wind(vast majority do not)

1) They will drive you mad with their noise. 

2) Before said noise drives you mad you will drive yourself to insulate your home better and throw on more solar on your roof and maybe even your yard. 

3) You will install a true 2 stage wood stove and install insulated chimney liner down your old chimney, as burning wood just became far more relevant. 

 

I was referring to a natural gas fueled micro turbine. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Doh!  How did I miss that?  🤣

This is exactly what the world needs, at least for cool and cold climates. We also have the micro turbines that generate heat and there are ways that could be engineered as in a natural gas air conditioner. 

Thanks for the info on micro boilers! I hadn't heard of them. I see you have a 5,000 pound rebate also.  If Biden wanted to spend money on this type of thing I would support it for those who were struggling financially with heating and cooling issues after insulation issues were dealt with. 

Combined heat and power (CHP) is a low hanging fruit that is seldom discussed.

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Combined heat and power (CHP) is a low hanging fruit that is seldom discussed.

Low hanging fruit is all over the place in government.  One of the reasons that Trump was able to make such an impact so quickly.  Any business person can attack myriad government waste, whether it be contract negotiation and simple enforcement of terms, logistics, combined ordering, over-regulation, budget incentives and enforcement, overseas "investment" ROI, and the list goes on and on and on.

A few other presidents were successful in these ways, but none to the extent Trump was and could have been if the narrative, the media and buy-in had been more on his/our side (focus on bringing services and savings to the people, first and foremost).

Maybe I'm a dreamer...

[Hiten Shah + 22]

Unlimited free solar and renewable energies are available. In fact fossil fuels are limited 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Hiten Shah

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 2/5/2021 at 1:47 AM, Hiten Shah said:

Unlimited free solar and renewable energies are available. In fact fossil fuels are limited 

Sure, the wind and the sun is free, harnessing it is not here the thing it goes, you need over 2000KWh/year of annual radiation imput to make solar competitive with gas or coal, and you need wind speeds over 5-7 m/s to make wind competitive with gas or coal, once you count taxes, distribution, grid connection, energy storage, blah, blah blah.

-Global warming is inevitable, and wind resources are reduced 25% per every °C of rise in average temperature because of the lower temperature difference between poles and tropics, you are lookin in the future to loose between 40 to 60% of all the wind potential, maybe less maybe more, without considering some countries are more worried about wind erosion and would put afforestation projects even if it reduces wind power potential


-With that it comes high precipitation and more cloudy days, don't know if you noticed it, but solar panels don't work as good in rainy places as in sunny places, as it turns out a solar panel will generate more electricity and make more sense, in the namibian desert than in the north pole or the tropical rainforest (which btw, receives as much sunlight in the floor as subpolar forests)

-The real reason why solar panels are so cheap now is because china is subsidising manufacturers so they can make solar farm projects and keep people at work, because the legitimacy of the CCP is based upon mantining unemployment and growth, at all costs, even if they loose money (in china you don't need to make profit if the state back you), did you really think china found a way to make solar panels 2 times cheaper than the japanese, when in many other industrial products they have similar if not higher prices?

Germany after 600 billion dollars gets 5% of their energy from wind and solar, denmark 8%,( with reduced overall energy consumption), and you need to cover all energy, because efficiency has never lead to reduced energy consumption, only higher gdp, make stuff 3 times more efficient, produce 3 times the stuff with the same imputs

You could go hydropower, which will benefit from global warming, the gross potential is estimated between 50 and 128 pWh, (enough for 76% of all energy) that will grow in the form of higher rains, and afforestation to regulate the more severe floods and droughts in the future, ¿how many people is in favour of daming every single river and stream in the world?

[Tomasz + 1,608]

I dont know whether someone mentioned this article - worth reading

Conclusion

Quote

"If...the world’s entire fleet were electric by 2040, liquid-fuel demand...would be the same as 2013’s...EVs are a single-digit factor & belong low on any sane list of priorities." --Holman Jenkins

https://www.wsj.com/articles/evs-are-the-lowest-climate-priority-11612912722

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

10 hours ago, Tomasz said:

I dont know whether someone mentioned this article - worth reading

Conclusion

https://www.wsj.com/articles/evs-are-the-lowest-climate-priority-11612912722

Thanks for the link, @Tomasz.  I had no idea the WSJ had a free video sort of headline news and just finished watching about 20-25 minutes of Daniel Henninger, Deputy Editor, WSJ Editorial Page.  One of the most enjoyable roundups of news I've seen in quite a while.

As for the article on EVs, it always rankles me when we're told to turn up/down the thermostat, rendering ourselves uncomfortable in our own homes, when I can go to any big box store, office building, large business or ANY GOVERNMENT OFFICE BUILDING and be frozen by the A/C or brought to a sweat by the heat.  As in one of Daniel Henninger's clips from above, when you boil it all down it is about votes to those in the "ruling class" and individuals like us shouldn't get too crazy trying to follow them or fight for what they say we should fight for.  So whether it is the subsidization of EV sales, laws mandating we only use them by a certain year, or other tactics to make us believe we and ICE cars are the problem, the truth is we and our ICE vehicles are the least contributor but we are being asked to make the biggest sacrifices in the name of votes for the ruling class.

[NickW + 2,714]

14 hours ago, Tomasz said:

I dont know whether someone mentioned this article - worth reading

Conclusion

https://www.wsj.com/articles/evs-are-the-lowest-climate-priority-11612912722

He is looking at it from the wrong perspective. The primary driver for EV's is local air quality. With currently energy infrastructure unless you are Norway or Iceland the Carbon emission benefits of EV's are about evens when compared to conventional hybrids. 

[Hiten Shah + 22]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:45 AM, Sebastian Meana said:

Sure, the wind and the sun is free, harnessing it is not here the thing it goes, you need over 2000KWh/year of annual radiation imput to make solar competitive with gas or coal, and you need wind speeds over 5-7 m/s to make wind competitive with gas or coal, once you count taxes, distribution, grid connection, energy storage, blah, blah blah.

-Global warming is inevitable, and wind resources are reduced 25% per every °C of rise in average temperature because of the lower temperature difference between poles and tropics, you are lookin in the future to loose between 40 to 60% of all the wind potential, maybe less maybe more, without considering some countries are more worried about wind erosion and would put afforestation projects even if it reduces wind power potential


-With that it comes high precipitation and more cloudy days, don't know if you noticed it, but solar panels don't work as good in rainy places as in sunny places, as it turns out a solar panel will generate more electricity and make more sense, in the namibian desert than in the north pole or the tropical rainforest (which btw, receives as much sunlight in the floor as subpolar forests)

-The real reason why solar panels are so cheap now is because china is subsidising manufacturers so they can make solar farm projects and keep people at work, because the legitimacy of the CCP is based upon mantining unemployment and growth, at all costs, even if they loose money (in china you don't need to make profit if the state back you), did you really think china found a way to make solar panels 2 times cheaper than the japanese, when in many other industrial products they have similar if not higher prices?

Germany after 600 billion dollars gets 5% of their energy from wind and solar, denmark 8%,( with reduced overall energy consumption), and you need to cover all energy, because efficiency has never lead to reduced energy consumption, only higher gdp, make stuff 3 times more efficient, produce 3 times the stuff with the same imputs

You could go hydropower, which will benefit from global warming, the gross potential is estimated between 50 and 128 pWh, (enough for 76% of all energy) that will grow in the form of higher rains, and afforestation to regulate the more severe floods and droughts in the future, ¿how many people is in favour of daming every single river and stream in the world?

 

[Boat + 1,323]

59 minutes ago, Hiten Shah said:

 

Any plan for carbon control and less pollution starts with population. Period. Second on the list would be human mobility/immigration. So far are politicians and religious leaders refuse to take on the obvious. 
Effeciency,weatherizing, wind, solar, etc are cleaner products but cannot compete with massive population increases. If we dropped a few billion over 150 years we might become sustainable.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Boat

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

4 hours ago, Hiten Shah said:

 

Yeah yea yeah, yeah, that's what they, say, making dilute energy source and concentrate them is hard, Every power development follows a "S" curve or logistic curve, half exponential in the bottom, half logarithmical in the top, the nice thing about germany and denmark for example is that it allows us to know whats the practical limit to wind power for example, before your useful competitive resources start diminushing, larger wind turbines are cheaper to build but they need larger areas to generate the same power because they cause more turbulence

Aerodynamics is quite a harder topic than hydrostatic, Germany supposedly onshore wind potential should be 4,018,000GWh or 460GWe, once you count stuff like the disturbances in wind, that some places would rather avoid wind erosion putting trees and blocking windmills, and all that stuff they will be lucky if their Onshore wind potential becomes 23GWe, maybe 45GWe with offshore wind projects, in onshore they are closing to that mid point and their wind generation is around 11GWa, 45GWe sounds nice, it cover most of german electricity, but is still little over 1/10th of germany total energy use

with denmark it goes the same, their wind power potential is 85GWa and if they are lucky they will be able to get around 4GWa combined, and they generate, 1.84GWa, and every year they struggle more and more to get that number to rise.

The largest clean energy expansions, have been  hydro and nucleaer with wind ,in the third place