Vestas launch 15MW Offshore Turbine

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:17 AM, notsonice said:

Solar panel installation costs around $18,500 for a 6kW solar panel system for a 1,500 square ft. home and the price per watt for solar panels can range from $2.50 to $3.50..... 6kW or 6 kilowatts is 6,000 watts of DC direct current power. This could produce an estimated 400 to 1,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of alternating current (AC) power per month, assuming at least 5 sun hours per day with the solar array facing South

This is accurate, even for "commercial installations". I was quite close to having "440" kW of solar installed outside of a business, only to find that the $1.00 per watt figures often given here are far from reality, unless the farm in question is 1000 MW +. None of the solar installations within my home state (Minnesota)  are even half this size, which means that my state's residents need to cover $2.50/W in capital expenditure if excel and other providers go 100% renewable.

 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

8 hours ago, NickW said:

Stock market investments have their risks if the timing is wrong and no guarantee of a return. A better comparison would be against a mortgage paydown which generates cash flow in a similar way as an investment in energy efficiency / home renewables and is a guaranteed return.

I currently pay 1.35% interest on my mortgage. 

Tell me what you think about this though: Securities can be liquidated for initial investment and returns. Solar panels can't be sold in the same way to recuperate cost. They need 15-20 years before they're cashflow positive, and you're stuck with them.

Meanwhile, Standard and Poor  ETFs make 8% a year, and you can sell without any penalty except capital gains tax. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Tell me what you think about this though: Securities can be liquidated for initial investment and returns. Solar panels can't be sold in the same way to recuperate cost. They need 15-20 years before they're cashflow positive, and you're stuck with them.

Meanwhile, Standard and Poor  ETFs make 8% a year, and you can sell without any penalty except capital gains tax. 

 

Well thats a decision for the consumer and depends where you are. I agree they are a very inflexible form of investment although the investment is normally embodied in the value of the house and in the very least makes the house more saleable if you sell. 

A old colleague of mine lived in Darwin where they had net metering. I said you would have to be mad not to put in solar with that arrangement and the local prices 25c / kwh. 

Solar panels would be top of my list for home energy investments 

 

 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

9 minutes ago, NickW said:

Well thats a decision for the consumer and depends where you are. I agree they are a very inflexible form of investment although the investment is normally embodied in the value of the house and in the very least makes the house more saleable if you sell. 

A old colleague of mine lived in Darwin where they had net metering. I said you would have to be mad not to put in solar with that arrangement and the local prices 25c / kwh. 

Solar panels would be top of my list for home energy investments 

 

 

25c /kwh dramatically reduces opportunity cost for that particular region. I would say that if you're paying that much for power, then panels definitely make sense. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

1 hour ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Tell me what you think about this though: Securities can be liquidated for initial investment and returns. Solar panels can't be sold in the same way to recuperate cost. They need 15-20 years before they're cashflow positive, and you're stuck with them.

Meanwhile, Standard and Poor  ETFs make 8% a year, and you can sell without any penalty except capital gains tax.

S&P just follows inflation.  Which has been massive in last 5 years.  Only reason Solar panel cost has not massively increased is because their cost has massively decreased.  If for standard products this is not true at all.  For instance the cost of wood/sheetrock/nails/roofing has doubled, same as S&P in last 5 years.  labor rates have not, but manufactured products?  Have all doubled in cost identical to S&P.  So, investing in your house is the same as investing in S&P. 

As for your solar panels, if you live up north, and hire all the work out, then yes, they will not cash flow.  If on the other hand you get off your ass and do something with your spare time, then solar panels pay you in ~10 years and afterwards it is free money.  Even up north.

PS: $$/W is a dumb number as they do not usually use install $$/W.  Inverter, permits mounting, transportation of panels costs far more than the panels. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:17 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

S&P just follows inflation.  Which has been massive in last 5 years.  Only reason Solar panel cost has not massively increased is because their cost has massively decreased.  If for standard products this is not true at all.  For instance the cost of wood/sheetrock/nails/roofing has doubled, same as S&P in last 5 years.  labor rates have not, but manufactured products?  Have all doubled in cost identical to S&P.  So, investing in your house is the same as investing in S&P. 

As for your solar panels, if you live up north, and hire all the work out, then yes, they will not cash flow.  If on the other hand you get off your ass and do something with your spare time, then solar panels pay you in ~10 years and afterwards it is free money.  Even up north.

PS: $$/W is a dumb number as they do not usually use install $$/W.  Inverter, permits mounting, transportation of panels costs far more than the panels. 

I don’t see anything that addresses the fact that securities are immediately positive whereas panels are not (in a great many locations). It doesn’t have to be the standard and poor index specifically, just look at the general point. 

Capital per installed watt isn’t a “dumb number”. The cost of the entire installation is factored into that figure. Just as it was when I was quoted the price for a 440 kW installation. You calculate returns based on total capital expenditure. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

@footeab@yahoo.com

Inflation rate takes 2% off. That’s not enough to call etfs a bad investment.