.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

2 minutes ago, NickW said:

I normally wouldn't respond in such a way but when he decided to personalise it by calling me a F**cking numpty I couldn't help but respond. 

Dual National - British - Australian. Take your pick. 

Don't be too harsh you might make me cry......

Okay, I'll be gentle. 

Being of an age, I had to look "numpty" up in my urban dictionary. It said that referred to someone with "zero common sense." 

I'm sure you have some common sense. I mean, you came up with the moose reference in less than a minute. When you figure transoceanic, that's fast!

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Okay, I'll be gentle. 

Being of an age, I had to look "numpty" up in my urban dictionary. It said that referred to someone with "zero common sense." 

I'm sure you have some common sense. I mean, you came up with the moose reference in less than a minute. When you figure transoceanic, that's fast!

In part I agree with his concern which is China getting its thumbs into every pie and I would prefer to see us far less reliant on them in the component supply chain. . 

But this isn't unique to wind energy. 

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,245]

2 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Okay, I'll be gentle. 

Being of an age, I had to look "numpty" up in my urban dictionary. It said that referred to someone with "zero common sense." 

I'm sure you have some common sense. I mean, you came up with the moose reference in less than a minute. When you figure transoceanic, that's fast!

Yer killin' me man....

[turbguy + 1,543]

12 hours ago, Coffeeguyzz said:

Mr. Turbguy

I empathisize with your exasperated tone as well intentioned people take these important matters seriously.

"The electrical supply crisis had a cause(s)."   Absolutely correct.

"The crisis occurred at about 1:00 AM ...".     Absolutely INCORRECT.

 

The crisis, Mr. turbguy, MANIFESTED at 1:00 AM, but it was MANY years in the 'occurring' phase.

This is NOT semantics any more than saying a person 'hitting the ground'  was a fatal event rather than saying it was the 'falling off the cliff'  part  that REALLY was the cause of death.

 

It is not necessary to go on and on for the people who already  have a broad view of how these systems function, that is, the multi faceted physical, financial, political, regulatory,  at al components that are intertwined in varying ways throughout the US electric/power systems.

I strongly recommend a reading of both the "Electricity 101 ..." and the Charles Rotter articles to start to grasp the many moving parts involved here.

Absent a comprehensive, accurate, wide encompassing perspective Mr. turbguy, even the best of us will be reduced to acting like one of the 6 wise blindfolded  sages exploring only one part of this elephant.

Let me take a stab at defining the "problem. 

Let us start here:

"The ERCOT system, as built and operated, did not supply the entire demand".

Please feel free to add or modify this statement.  I really need to here of any.  

I'll finish the stew tonight.

[QuarterCenturyVet + 312]

18 minutes ago, NickW said:

Thats a feature of globalisation and applies to all industries. 

I suspect windmills and water wheels  built 500 years ago were 100% local components but I don't think that's really relevant to today.

The pandemic just taught us that it is more important than ever, but forget that tired ol canard, eh? 

All of our workers come from Canada or the United States, regardless of where components come from. Here, the oil is in the ground, whereas all your precious renewable parts that were all the rage 500 years ago, aren't in being mined here, are they? 

 

That's the goddamn point. You're a NIMBY who prefers that China makes all the dirty digging, the hell with the environment and human rights for them. 

 

Congratulations, we're all in awe at your "morality". 

 

Meanwhile, the rest of us old school men and women still have to keep the lights on when its -45°C in the winter for a couple weeks at a time. Wind and solar aren't going to help us in Canada, so GFY. 

[NickW + 2,714]

12 minutes ago, QuarterCenturyVet said:

The pandemic just taught us that it is more important than ever, but forget that tired ol canard, eh? 

All of our workers come from Canada or the United States, regardless of where components come from. Here, the oil is in the ground, whereas all your precious renewable parts that were all the rage 500 years ago, aren't in being mined here, are they? 

 

That's the goddamn point. You're a NIMBY who prefers that China makes all the dirty digging, the hell with the environment and human rights for them. 

 

Congratulations, we're all in awe at your "morality". 

 

Meanwhile, the rest of us old school men and women still have to keep the lights on when its -45°C in the winter for a couple weeks at a time. Wind and solar aren't going to help us in Canada, so GFY. 

Unlike Canada and the USA, Europe which this original thread stream referred to is highly dependent on imported energy. Renewables offer Europe an opportunity to reduce dependence and diversify supply. 

In other words - it reduces the risk of being bent over a barrel by the Russians, Americans, Qataris, Saudis etc etc. 

[turbguy + 1,543]

Sometimes I fee that some here are attempting to use Maxwell’s field equations to explain the designated hitter rule!

[NickW + 2,714]

13 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Did you not read, or simply not understand my post? Wind contributed -93% and gas contributed +450%. Let's pretend you have an IQ over room temperature. Who failed? 

That chart shows gas sourced electricity dropping off a cliff on the 15th Feb

Now we all know wind is intermittent and has to accept the market price when the wind blows what ever that maybe. 

However gas has a major advantage in that it can respond to price signals which are effectively a demand signal. Yet despite this feature when the wholesale price went to to the moon gas output crashed shattering the reliability illusion of gas. 

I can see a lot of Texans demanding more renewables, more batteries Elon, and more interconnects. Texans deserve better than the current shambles. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

6 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Sometimes I fee that some here are attempting to use Maxwell’s field equations to explain the designated hitter rule!

New here aren't you. 

This is the Oil Price.com forum Xmas meet up (pre COVID of course) 

(8) Bronson. Dance scene - YouTube

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

6 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Sometimes I fee that some here are attempting to use Maxwell’s field equations to explain the designated hitter rule!

Well being from Wyoming I'm quite sure you might understand the term "CowBoy Up". Hmm does Wyoming still have true cowboys?

Aside from that my limited experience with Texans would they are a very polite/gentle culture at first. When angered that's the CowBoy Up time, rather harsh/brutal yes, however the air is fairly clear when done. I would a expect a very sharp transition when this is over...very little doubt will remain.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

16 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Sometimes I fee that some here are attempting to use Maxwell’s field equations to explain the designated hitter rule!

Ah there you go picking on @surrept33 again

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,245]

7 minutes ago, NickW said:

I can see a lot of Texans demanding more renewables, more batteries Elon, and more interconnects. Texans deserve better than the current shambles.

NO, NO, HELL NO.  ERCOT's mismanagement failed, and like dominoes, the power energy output from the windmills not operating started the whole system failure. Too much demand all at once and remove the windmills power-output, along with the solar snow and ice covered killed the system. NG couldn't keep up and neither could the nukes. It's a grid that relied too heavily on wind/solar. But be that as it may, that was a rarity storm not but every 20 years or so event. 

[NickW + 2,714]

Just now, Old-Ruffneck said:

NO, NO, HELL NO.  ERCOT's mismanagement failed, and like dominoes, the power energy output from the windmills not operating started the whole system failure. Too much demand all at once and remove the windmills power-output, along with the solar snow and ice covered killed the system. NG couldn't keep up and neither could the nukes. It's a grid that relied too heavily on wind/solar. But be that as it may, that was a rarity storm not but every 20 years or so event. 

Yes but gas spectacularly failed. Couldn't response to a 'we are going to the moon' price signal. 

I'm looking forward to some purple haired, DNC supporting, lesbo with tats coming out the woodwork to tell us how Texans paid for her brand new Tesla with all the cash she made selling wind power from her investment in grid scale battery storage😉

[NickW + 2,714]

Just now, NickW said:

Yes but gas spectacularly failed. Couldn't response to a 'we are going to the moon' price signal. 

I'm looking forward to some purple haired, DNC supporting, lesbo with tats coming out the woodwork to tell us how Texans paid for her brand new Tesla with all the cash she made selling wind power from her investment in grid scale battery storage😉

Respond

[turbguy + 1,543]

8 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

NO, NO, HELL NO.  ERCOT's mismanagement failed, and like dominoes, the power energy output from the windmills not operating started the whole system failure. Too much demand all at once and remove the windmills power-output, along with the solar snow and ice covered killed the system. NG couldn't keep up and neither could the nukes. It's a grid that relied too heavily on wind/solar. But be that as it may, that was a rarity storm not but every 20 years or so event. 

More wind, solar, and batteries are already on ERCOT's future "books"  (and a LOT of solar).

Is one of the potential root causes of this particular ERCOT problem "renewables crashed the system"?  Sure!  I would be happilly willing to accept that if the facts of the problem (what & what not, when & when not, where & where not, and extent) fit that analysis.

From what I can see, that potential root cause does not appear to fit very well.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

From what I can see

Quote

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see

 

[turbguy + 1,543]

4 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see

Quite true!  I fully agree!!

What was the problem?

What did you see that I am missing?

[turbguy + 1,543]

41 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well being from Wyoming I'm quite sure you might understand the term "CowBoy Up". Hmm does Wyoming still have true cowboys?

 

Yup, we do.  I actually feel that the Code of the West applies much better:

1. Live each day with courage
2. Take pride in your work
3. Always finish what you start
4. Do what has to be done
5. Be tough, but fair
6. When you make a promise, keep it
7. Ride for the Brand
8. Talk less and say more
9. Remember that some things aren't for sale
10. Know where to draw the line

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

2 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Oh, for Pete's sake, Dan, CO2 is everywhere! And it's not much of a greenhouse gas.

I do not wish to discuss climate warming on this thread. It's far too long already. Therefore my only point was a technical one: Producing hydrogen from NG is not carbon-neutral as you stated.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Yup, we do.  I actually feel that the Code of the West applies much better:

1. Live each day with courage
2. Take pride in your work
3. Always finish what you start
4. Do what has to be done
5. Be tough, but fair
6. When you make a promise, keep it
7. Ride for the Brand
8. Talk less and say more
9. Remember that some things aren't for sale
10. Know where to draw the line

Well articulated, polite/gentle would be 1 thru 9. Right now I do believe TX is well onto 

Know where to draw the line.

Blowing out ECORTS admin with little fanfare would be quite indicative of TX future. It makes one wonder if these individuals will lawyer up and cry foul.

[turbguy + 1,543]

I have very limited experience with nat gas processing, compression, and transmission/distribution.

One potential root cause is the lose of power to this system (as Ward pointed out).  I feel that could be a quite valid issue.

My very limited experience with compressor stations was with only one station.  The compressor's prime mover was a smaller, heavy duty CT (the fuel is already there and the starting means was a simple curtis wheel steam turbine as an expander using pipeline gas).

How many of the stations in Texas use an electric motor as a prime mover?  

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

50 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Quite true!  I fully agree!!

What was the problem?

What did you see that I am missing?

The site is bugging out here today. Are you able to upload graphics or edit a post? I'm unable to do so here

[turbguy + 1,543]

3 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

The site is bugging out here today. Are you able to upload graphics or edit a post? I'm unable to do so here

I'm experiencing the same.

Stay in touch.

[surrept33 + 609]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Ah there you go picking on @surrept33 again

Unfortunately, Maxwell didn't get to live a little bit longer (after Plank)! 

His equations basically predict waves generated by the mutual oscillations (coupling) of electric and magnetic fields, where the speed of the wave approached the speed of light. But of course this was before relativity and quantum theory and a lot of experimental data in a variety of 'states' (which really are where most modern technology comes from. miniaturization, lowering friction, wear and tear, taking advantage of quantum effects is pretty much everywhere).

Let's make an analogy that is more "clear" to every day understanding. It's also similar to how a packet switching (not circuit switching) system works. 

Let's imagine a company that has many branches all over the world. The offices do not operate independently, but only under the influence of all of the others, and they exchange information about the policy to adopt. A computer network system has been setup to facilitate communication. The network system covers the whole world. The actual communication occurs via single email messages sent from one office to another. The network system continuously exchanges emails. The global activity of the company is determined by individual emails, though in large numbers.

Here, the branch offices are various electric charges distributed in space. The computer network is the EM field. The computer system controls the behavior of the system and communicates "the force". The emails are like photons (and contain information "bits"). The EM field covers all space, but is actually made up of particles (photons in this case). The EM "force" is caused by a continuous exchange photons between electric charges.

I just describe the relationships between phenomenon, but it's sometimes "interesting" to lookup why for example, why certain units were redefined the way they were: https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition

[turbguy + 1,543]

4 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

Unfortunately, Maxwell didn't get to live a little bit longer (after Plank)! 

His equations basically predict waves generated by the mutual oscillations (coupling) of electric and magnetic fields, where the speed of the wave approached the speed of light. But of course this was before relativity and quantum theory and a lot of experimental data in a variety of 'states' (which really are where most modern technology comes from. miniaturization, lowering friction, wear and tear, taking advantage of quantum effects is pretty much everywhere).

Let's make an analogy that is more "clear" to every day understanding. It's also similar to how a packet switching (not circuit switching) system works. 

Let's imagine a company that has many branches all over the world. The offices do not operate independently, but only under the influence of all of the others, and they exchange information about the policy to adopt. A computer network system has been setup to facilitate communication. The network system covers the whole world. The actual communication occurs via single email messages sent from one office to another. The network system continuously exchanges emails. The global activity of the company is determined by individual emails, though in large numbers.

Here, the branch offices are various electric charges distributed in space. The computer network is the EM field. The computer system controls the behavior of the system and communicates "the force". The emails are like photons (and contain information "bits"). The EM field covers all space, but is actually made up of particles (photons in this case). The EM "force" is caused by a continuous exchange photons between electric charges.

I just describe the relationships between phenomenon, but it's sometimes "interesting" to lookup why for example, why certain units were redefined the way they were: https://www.nist.gov/si-redefinition

Is there a designated hitter rule hidden in there somewhere?