America Makes Plans to Produce Needed Rare Earth Minerals Domestically

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

42 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

Keep in mind that China imports a lot of these from America to effectively perform the rare earth separation in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_chromatography

There are a lot of these in the US, and we are probably far ahead in the 'state of the art' (these machines are hard to reverse engineer), but we just use it in biotech rather than mining, though we could (and probably should to diversify our options).

 

I brought up the final processing days ago here, see the Tuesday post. Fact is, and you've failed along with the Eejit @Symmetry to discern the real reason processing goes on over there and not here. I've given two hints this is your last one. Thorium. 

 

[Boat + 1,325]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:22 AM, Ward Smith said:

So the EPA gets to label CO2 a pollutant, gets to fight in court against people who actually have to pay their lawyers while the EPA gets unlimited funds to fight them. Who loses? Is CO2 a pollutant? Without CO2 what happens to all life on earth? Asking for the smart people in the room

Everyone's Reaction is Different

A person's reaction to chemicals depends on several things, including individual health, heredity, previous exposure to chemicals including medicines, and personal habits such as smoking or drinking. It’s also important to consider the length of exposure to the chemical, the amount of chemical exposure, and whether the chemical was inhaled, touched, or eaten.

Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, coma, asphyxia, and convulsions.

[Boat + 1,325]

Editorial: Air Pollution Was Already Killing Us. Then Came the Coronavirus. Why Won’t the EPA Act?
 

https://www.texasobserver.org/air-pollution-coronavirus-houston-epa/amp/
 

The eight-county Houston region, where I live, has never met the Environmental Protection Agency’s health-based standards for ozone pollution. Currently, Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio don’t, either. In 2019, my city experienced 29—nearly an entire month—of “ozone action days,” when pollutants from tailpipes and smokestacks chemically react in the heat and sunlight to create air that’s so unhealthy the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) advises us to stay inside as much as we can.
 

A new analysis by the Environmental Defense Fund and the Harvard School of Public Health found that fine particulate matter contributed to more than 5,000 early deaths and nearly $50 billion in economic damages just in the Houston region and just in 2015.

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

19 hours ago, surrept33 said:

This depends. The United States has had a long history with civil service reforms and movements from the public to private sector, and vice versa.  Relatively speaking, our governance structures have less day to day corruption (for example, you don't have to bribe someone to get a permit - a quid pro quo situation). The last administration didn't do anyone any favors by running on a populist platform that over-politicised non-partisan roles. This obviously depends on your philosophy of politics. Should it be about serious policy debates or getting a leg up on your 'competitor'? Humans can do either. 

Every institution, whether it is public or private sector has some amount of institutional inertia. Some inertia is good (because you want multiple checks and balances), some is toxic or not very relevant (anymore). 

Personally, I think the best approach is to just use approaches from cognitive science (scientists who think about thinking) and behavioral economics. For example, Nudge Theory is interesting:

https://www.businessballs.com/improving-workplace-performance/nudge-theory/

The biggest lesson learned within the 'nudge' framework is that changing the defaults is often better to reduce friction especially when things become 'hot'. Take for example, a 401k program or a health insurance pool. A lot of people do not understand how to quantify risk, especially of processes that are accumulative, for example, smoking, obesity, or communicable diseases. How do you prevent unnatural deaths by minimizing effort, maximizing results and minimizing side effects? Good question - but that's why regulated markets like that of the United States tend to work well. 

Sometimes of course, people or entire industries screw up. That's okay, usually there is onerous regulation after those screw ups. Look at for example, the Basel accords after the last financial meltdown. 

Not disputing what you're putting down but my point is really about people not the policy or structures. Once you're hired in the civil service you're more or less employed for life if you choose to be. No matter how bad you are at what you're doing you just get shuffled around to another location. It's like the movie Office Space where the mentally challenged employee is put in the basement instead of being fired.

Example, a few years ago I won a contract to install conduit and rewire all existing irrigation valves at Pearl Harbor (yes, that Pearl Harbor) and put them on a centralized controlled system. Being how the wiring was low voltage (12-24 volts) we only had to dig +/- 8" in depth in soil areas, roadway crossings were 24"-36" depth, we're not talking much depth here. 

The "safety" officer, employed by the DOD and imposed on us, made me hire two workers, at $1K a day for both, so they could walk uniformed members of the US Navy across streets like little old ladies. These streets for the most part had little to no traffic. We also had to install a Great Wall of traffic cones (I think we ended up purchasing 300) so we could surround every millimeter of our highly dangerous 8" deep 3" width trench, which was located in an empty field.

Yes, for the cool cost of $200,000 your tax dollars (and my profit margin) paid $500/day each for two people to walk uniformed members of the US Navy across empty streets and move cones around in empty fields to guard against the danger of an 8" deep trench. (which was filled back in at the end of each workday)

The safety officer had a masters degree, the other bureaucrats thought all of it was funny. Multiply this by a million and it's what's happening every day all day. Make every policy/structural change you desire, it still won't fix stupid.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Strangelovesurfing

[surrept33 + 610]

1 hour ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Not disputing what you're putting down but my point is really about people not the policy or structures. Once you're hired in the civil service you're more or less employed for life if you choose to be. No matter how bad you are at what you're doing you just get shuffled around to another location. It's like the movie Office Space where the mentally challenged employee is put in the basement instead of being fired.

Example, a few years ago I won a contract to install conduit and rewire all existing irrigation valves at Pearl Harbor (yes, that Pearl Harbor) and put them on a centralized controlled system. Being how the wiring was low voltage (12-24 volts) we only had to dig +/- 8" in depth in soil areas, roadway crossings were 24"-36" depth, we're not talking much depth here. 

The "safety" officer, employed by the DOD and imposed on us, made me hire two workers, at $1K a day for both, so they could walk uniformed members of the US Navy across streets like little old ladies. These streets for the most part had little to no traffic. We also had to install a Great Wall of traffic cones (I think we ended up purchasing 300) so we could surround every millimeter of our highly dangerous 8" deep 3" width trench, which was located in an empty field.

Yes, for the cool cost of $200,000 your tax dollars (and my profit margin) paid $500/day each for two people to walk uniformed members of the US Navy across empty streets and move cones around in empty fields to guard against the danger of an 8" deep trench. (which was filled back in at the end of each workday)

The safety officer had a masters degree, the other bureaucrats thought all of it was funny. Multiply this by a million and it's what's happening every day all day. Make every policy/structural change you desire, it still won't fix stupid.

I agree about bureaucracy, I think it can cause massive cost diseases in the economy overall by increasing costs of doing business. I've been in your shoes. 

It can also exhibit itself in the private sector however. There are a lot of inefficiencies caused by "middle men". For example, the role of insurance companies in medical care compared to the overall GDP. 

I think in both cases, there is room for reform (or even private enterprise that reduces the effect of regulatory capture), but it has to be choreographed so different interest groups have alignment, especially these days since "corporations are people too" led to basically unlimited money going to keeping the status quo of <insert whatever bureaucracy you can think of here> instead of incrementally trying smaller reforms, which I usually think is prudent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

[Symmetry + 109]

5 hours ago, surrept33 said:

Keep in mind that China imports a lot of these from America to effectively perform the rare earth separation in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_chromatography

There are a lot of these in the US, and we are probably far ahead in the 'state of the art' (these machines are hard to reverse engineer), but we just use it in biotech rather than mining, though we could (and probably should to diversify our options).

 

Ion chromatography is easy and not particularly high tech. It's just resins with sulfonic acid or quaternary ammonium functional groups attached to the polymer. 

I have many years experience in HPLC & IC.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Symmetry

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

1 hour ago, surrept33 said:

I think in both cases, there is room for reform (or even private enterprise that reduces the effect of regulatory capture), but it has to be choreographed so different interest groups have alignment, especially these days since "corporations are people too" led to basically unlimited money going to keeping the status quo of <insert whatever bureaucracy you can think of here> instead of incrementally trying smaller reforms, which I usually think is prudent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

I would propose the only way to impact the system positively is to abolish the compensatory differences in private vs public employment. Unless you're in a union almost no one has private sector pension benefits anymore, now it's all 401k etc. Government agencies are built around a seniority and pension system that doesn't exist in the private sector. Due to this, once you're working for the govt. you stay working there forever, this fosters inefficiencies, lack of responsibility, feelings of impunity, myopic eyesight etc.

Harmonizing the hiring processes and compensation between private and public sector would be the single biggest improvement IMO. Being able to move from the private sector to public sector, and vice versa, should be normal and easy. Your 401K would get funded just like the private sector, no pensions would be offered. Hopefully this would foster more mobility back and forth between the two.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Strangelovesurfing

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Boat said:

Everyone's Reaction is Different

A person's reaction to chemicals depends on several things, including individual health, heredity, previous exposure to chemicals including medicines, and personal habits such as smoking or drinking. It’s also important to consider the length of exposure to the chemical, the amount of chemical exposure, and whether the chemical was inhaled, touched, or eaten.

Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, coma, asphyxia, and convulsions.

https://principia-scientific.com/at-what-concentration-does-co2-becomes-toxic-to-humans/

An actual scientific explanation of how mammals deal with levels of CO2. 

The gist of it is: In other words, the concentration of CO2 needs to increase 150-fold for the CO2 to become toxic.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:42 PM, Boat said:

Editorial: Air Pollution Was Already Killing Us. Then Came the Coronavirus. Why Won’t the EPA Act?
 

https://www.texasobserver.org/air-pollution-coronavirus-houston-epa/amp/
 

The eight-county Houston region, where I live, has never met the Environmental Protection Agency’s health-based standards for ozone pollution. Currently, Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio don’t, either. In 2019, my city experienced 29—nearly an entire month—of “ozone action days,” when pollutants from tailpipes and smokestacks chemically react in the heat and sunlight to create air that’s so unhealthy the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) advises us to stay inside as much as we can.
 

A new analysis by the Environmental Defense Fund and the Harvard School of Public Health found that fine particulate matter contributed to more than 5,000 early deaths and nearly $50 billion in economic damages just in the Houston region and just in 2015.

That is REAL pollution. I have lived in Los Angeles in my youth when my lungs would ache on high ozone (if I was active outside) days. Los Angeles traps the smog in a three sided box surrounded by hills and mountains. I also spent seven years in Bakersfield. Through all of that I had a small bit of damage to my lungs from valley fever which is due to ancient fungus that blows off the hills. The name for the illness is coccidiomycosis. https://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/coccidioidomycosis/index.html

Some have severe cases of it and die. CO2 is NOT comparable to real threats of pollution of many kinds.  Carbon monoxide is because it prevents the lungs from using the oxygen available. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by ronwagn
spelling

[Symmetry + 109]

22 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

  Carbon monoxide is because it prevents the lungs from using the oxygen available. 

It's the hemoglobin in the blood that stops working.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

I would propose the only way to impact the system positively is to abolish the compensatory differences in private vs public employment. Unless you're in a union almost no one has private sector pension benefits anymore, now it's all 401k etc. Government agencies are built around a seniority and pension system that doesn't exist in the private sector. Due to this, once you're working for the govt. you stay working there forever, this fosters inefficiencies, lack of responsibility, feelings of impunity, myopic eyesight etc.

Harmonizing the hiring processes and compensation between private and public sector would be the single biggest improvement IMO. Being able to move from the private sector to public sector, and vice versa, should be normal and easy. Your 401K would get funded just like the private sector, no pensions would be offered. Hopefully this would foster more mobility back and forth between the two.

The government workers would never accept a 401K unless it was far beyond what private employees are paid. The entire benefit package of government employees is far better. This happened after the Democrats passed a bill to allow government unions. Prior to that time they made less money but had better benefits. Now they are paid more money plus bonuses, more vacation, etc. Have better job security and are bankrupting the states and large cities , so they need to be bailed out by the federal government. Rich pay and benefits for workers assure a large cadre of political workers as we see each election. 

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

41 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Some have severe cases of it and die. CO2 is NOT comparable to real threats of pollution of many kinds.  Carbon monoxide is because it prevents the lungs from using the oxygen available. 

Most cases of CO2 poisoning these days are from some drunk throwing a large amount of dry ice into a swimming pool and then everyone jumps in. The solid state rapidly turns into a heavy haze over the pool. 

Same concept as the old forensic case study from the forties or fifties whereby several guys died in a ship's hold where a large amount of dry ice was keeping the berries fresh. 

In nature, there are massive "sinks" that take up vast amounts of CO2. You can always find some quack who'll attest to oceanic acidification due to carbonic acid, when it reality it was usually due to high-sulfur bunker fuel polluting the waters. 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

The government workers would never accept a 401K unless it was far beyond what private employees are paid. The entire benefit package of government employees is far better. This happened after the Democrats passed a bill to allow government unions. Prior to that time they made less money but had better benefits. Now they are paid more money plus bonuses, more vacation, etc. Have better job security and are bankrupting the states and large cities , so they need to be bailed out by the federal government. Rich pay and benefits for workers assure a large cadre of political workers as we see each election. 

The civil service will never reform willingly.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

14 hours ago, Boat said:

Everyone's Reaction is Different

A person's reaction to chemicals depends on several things, including individual health, heredity, previous exposure to chemicals including medicines, and personal habits such as smoking or drinking. It’s also important to consider the length of exposure to the chemical, the amount of chemical exposure, and whether the chemical was inhaled, touched, or eaten.

Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, coma, asphyxia, and convulsions.

Daily recommended calorie intakes vary by age, gender and lifestyle. However, on average, women need to eat approximately 2000 calories per day to maintain their current weight, while the average man needs to eat around 2500 calories. Repeatedly going over your daily recommended calories can lead to obesity, which has been associated with type 2 diabetes, heart disease and even certain types of cancer.

But while homemade whipped cream may not be the best choice... processed, pressurized whipped creams are even worse. Popular ready-made toppings Cool Whip and Reddi Whip may be more convenient than making your own whipped cream, but harmful additives make them even more unsafe.

A container of Cool Whip, for instance, lists high fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated oils as its primary ingredients after water. High-fructose corn syrup can lead to more weight gain than plain old table syrup, reveals a recent Princeton University study. Hydrogenated oils are just as bad: the National Academy of Sciences states that there are no safe, acceptable levels of trans fats. These fats have been consistently linked to heart disease because they increase LDL (bad cholesterol) while lowering HDL (good cholesterol).

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Most cases of CO2 poisoning these days are from some drunk throwing a large amount of dry ice into a swimming pool and then everyone jumps in. The solid state rapidly turns into a heavy haze over the pool. 

Same concept as the old forensic case study from the forties or fifties whereby several guys died in a ship's hold where a large amount of dry ice was keeping the berries fresh. 

In nature, there are massive "sinks" that take up vast amounts of CO2. You can always find some quack who'll attest to oceanic acidification due to carbonic acid, when it reality it was usually due to high-sulfur bunker fuel polluting the waters. 

In the UK it has been an issue with beer cellars and CO2 leaks from cylinders and more so since people switched from drinking real ales to rats p1ss (lager) which uses CO2 as a propellant and carbonator. 

I worked for a couple of years for one the major pub chains and cellars below a certain size where CO2 conc could get very high if there was a leak had alarms. We also had risk assessments and specifically mentioned this in training as the usual response if someone has collapsed is to rush straight in and then you have 2 casualties. 

[Symmetry + 109]

19 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

In nature, there are massive "sinks" that take up vast amounts of CO2. You can always find some quack who'll attest to oceanic acidification due to carbonic acid, when it reality it was usually due to high-sulfur bunker fuel polluting the waters. 

CO2 does acidify water, it can be demonstrated easily with a straw, a cup of water, and a pH indicator or meter.  It's fun science for children, "blow bubbles and learn!"  Watch how your exhaled CO2 acidifies the water, the colour changes!

The ocean has massive dilution effects and interactions with geology, so it's pH may not change quickly.   Shallow areas with sensitive ecosystems (coral reefs) are showing degradation, for many reasons.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 3/3/2021 at 9:37 AM, NickW said:

Thumbs up

Any effort to diversify supply away from China is a good thing

 I am amazed that no-one on this site has heard of the Australian company called Lynas Corporation. They have a contract with the Pentagon and have been processing REE's in Malaysia for several years. I was the one who demanded that Trump get serious about Rare Earths, and that is why he suggested taking Greenland. (After Australia, they have the most REE's apart from China). Now, every Trump policy is being re-branded as "Biden's Policy". That is the MSM  for you, but then again, they say that copying someone is the ultimate form of flattery?

 

[Wombat + 1,028]

Some facts on the situation:

Lynas wants to shake up the rare earths supply chain (msn.com)

[Wombat + 1,028]

The Greenland connection...

How China's Belt and Road and an Australian mining company could be the deciding issues in the Greenland election (msn.com)

[Richard D + 86]

On 3/3/2021 at 2:45 AM, Ward Smith said:

Every pound of rare earths produced at the Mountain Pass mine gets shipped to China for final processing. This is because the US moronic bunglecrats reclassified an innocuous substance as a nuclear weapons material. Kudos to the first who figures it out. 

@Gerry Maddoux you've seen one of my inventions, I'm working with a national lab to solve this issue also. It's funded, just waiting on the money to show up to further test my concept. So far so good. 

There has been speculation that traditional ore caused pollution when processed,which is why it gets shipped to China. I would like to point out that there is one kilo of rare earths in every metric ton of the vast quantity of red mud produced as waste during processing of bauxite by the Bayer process. Acid processes to treat the red mud would dissolve a good proportion of the rare earths,which could then be precipitated as oxalates. I recently patented an acid process for the  treatment of red mud to recover alumina content. The patent is GB 2576266. It can be found on the UK Patent Office site. It seems to me that red mud could also be a source of titanium dioxide. Bauxite from Jamaica is rich in rare earths and that bauxite was often used in US Bayer plants before most of them closed.

[Symmetry + 109]

9 hours ago, Wombat said:

 I am amazed that no-one on this site has heard of the Australian company called Lynas Corporation. They have a contract with the Pentagon and have been processing REE's in Malaysia for several years. I was the one who demanded that Trump get serious about Rare Earths, and that is why he suggested taking Greenland. (After Australia, they have the most REE's apart from China). Now, every Trump policy is being re-branded as "Biden's Policy". That is the MSM  for you, but then again, they say that copying someone is the ultimate form of flattery?

 

That's not domestic production...

Trump thinking he could just buy Greenland was funny.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

10 minutes ago, Symmetry said:

Trump thinking he could just buy Greenland was funny.

Should have made it a state.

[Symmetry + 109]

1 minute ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Should have made it a state.

They don't want to be a state.

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:07 PM, ronwagn said:

The government workers would never accept a 401K unless it was far beyond what private employees are paid. The entire benefit package of government employees is far better. This happened after the Democrats passed a bill to allow government unions. Prior to that time they made less money but had better benefits. Now they are paid more money plus bonuses, more vacation, etc. Have better job security and are bankrupting the states and large cities , so they need to be bailed out by the federal government. Rich pay and benefits for workers assure a large cadre of political workers as we see each election. 

Oregon is prime example of such practice's,my next door neighbor is a retired govt engineer. This woman nets 12000 a month from her pers and free healthcare/dental benefits with no restriction's.

Now have some fun with that number, to me it means 5mill in the bank drawing down the interest only. The top tier benefits are 50/70K a month..now that is some disposable whip!

https://gov.oregonlive.com/pers/

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, Richard D said:

There has been speculation that traditional ore caused pollution when processed,which is why it gets shipped to China. I would like to point out that there is one kilo of rare earths in every metric ton of the vast quantity of red mud produced as waste during processing of bauxite by the Bayer process. Acid processes to treat the red mud would dissolve a good proportion of the rare earths,which could then be precipitated as oxalates. I recently patented an acid process for the  treatment of red mud to recover alumina content. The patent is GB 2576266. It can be found on the UK Patent Office site. It seems to me that red mud could also be a source of titanium dioxide. Bauxite from Jamaica is rich in rare earths and that bauxite was often used in US Bayer plants before most of them closed.

Reclassification of thorium was the problem. It's a fairly benign radioactive material and by no means should have been classified as weapons grade material subject to nuclear regulations. A little background